The giant is here: Velodyne DLS 5000R 15" Monster

[Sheep]

S10.3 spec from energy website 21Hz-120Hz +/- 3dB

i dont think i would replace the 5000R with two of those.

The Tom Nousaine measurements state the S10.3 producing 84dB at 20Hz with 10% THD. That's in a 7500cu ft room. It also average 104dB from 25-62Hz. The DLSR5000R did 108 from 25-62, and hit 91dB, at 25hz. The S12.3 managed 86.9dB at 20hz, 105.7dB at 25hz, and averaged 110dB from 25-62Hz. All these measurements were done in the same room, same place. I'd say that is a pretty good showing for a 10inch subwoofer. The S12.3 is ranked 7th from the top.

SheepStar

 

[annunaki]

According to Sheep's last post it clearly shows more output potential with the Velo. I say keep it start enjoying it and tweaking for best performance.

A 10" driver can easily play deeper than a 15" driver, if the 15" driver is in a higher tuned vented enclosure. The 15" will have more output over its operating bandwidth by a pretty large margin, but a 10" (vented) tuned lower could play deeper. However, it will have to struggle a bit at those low frequencies to produce higher spl's. If the 10" and the 15" were in equally tuned, vented enclosures, the 15" would appear to play deeper as it can play the frequencies below the tuning frequency at a higher spl until the rolloff or infrasonic filter of the system renders them inaudible.

Depending upon the tuning frequency of the Velo, it is entirely possible that the 10" SVS plays a bit louder at low frequencies near it's native tuning frequency (around 20hz). Once the subwoofer's are "in room" this difference will disappear some.

 

[furrycute]

Yeah, a 10inch trying to pump out sub 20Hz frequency, impressive, but at what price?

That graph only shows SPL, it doesn't show distortion. A 10inch trying to reproduce sub 20Hz frequencies will have CRAZY amounts of distortion. Is this what you are looking for in a sub?

You asked for it...

5000R ground plain from AVtalk.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4731

SVS PB-10ISD
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-fr2m.gif

Both microphones are placed 2m from the sub, ground plain. I highly doubt the equipment would make change the results.

SheepStar

 

[furrycute]

Thanks for the graphs Sheep. These graphs just bring home another point about that SVS 10 inch.

SVS is clearly pushing beyond the limits of what a 10 inch woofer is realistically capable of producing. In trying to reproduce those sub 20 Hz frequencies, that 10 inch woofer is clearly breaking up and making all sorts of nasty distortions. Luckily for SVS, 20 Hz is the lower limit of human hearing. Those subsonic distortions are not normally audible. But you can feel that something is definitely not right. If you hear these kinds of distortions from your front speakers, you will freak out.

SVS's design philosophy in this instance clearly demonstrates that it is willing to sacrifice clarity (low distortion) for unrealistic subsonic SPL.

 

[Matt34]

Thanks for the graphs Sheep. These graphs just bring home another point about that SVS 10 inch.

SVS is clearly pushing beyond the limits of what a 10 inch woofer is realistically capable of producing. In trying to reproduce those sub 20 Hz frequencies, that 10 inch woofer is clearly breaking up and making all sorts of nasty distortions. Luckily for SVS, 20 Hz is the lower limit of human hearing. Those subsonic distortions are not normally audible. But you can feel that something is definitely not right. If you hear these kinds of distortions from your front speakers, you will freak out.

SVS's design philosophy in this instance clearly demonstrates that it is willing to sacrifice clarity (low distortion) for unrealistic subsonic SPL.

Am I missing something, where are you getting the distortion levels on that graph?

 

[Sheep]

Thanks for the graphs Sheep. These graphs just bring home another point about that SVS 10 inch.

SVS is clearly pushing beyond the limits of what a 10 inch woofer is realistically capable of producing. In trying to reproduce those sub 20 Hz frequencies, that 10 inch woofer is clearly breaking up and making all sorts of nasty distortions. Luckily for SVS, 20 Hz is the lower limit of human hearing. Those subsonic distortions are not normally audible. But you can feel that something is definitely not right. If you hear these kinds of distortions from your front speakers, you will freak out.

SVS's design philosophy in this instance clearly demonstrates that it is willing to sacrifice clarity (low distortion) for unrealistic subsonic SPL.

I can get you the distortion graphs for the SVS. I believe it was 10% limited. And BTW, distortion that low is extremely hard to detect with the human ear. It could go up to 25% and not be that noticeable.

Here are the ground plain numbers.

20 Hz: 93.9 dB (8.0 % - amplifier limited)
22 Hz: 96.9 dB (2.7 % - amplifier limited)
25 Hz: 102.2 dB
32 Hz: 104.1 dB
40 Hz: 105.8 dB
50 Hz: 106.7 dB
63 Hz: 105.7 dB
80 Hz: 104.0 dB

My DIY sub will be using the Infinity Kappa perfect 10inch driver, and it will make a mockery of the 5000R, guaranteed.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

Yeah, a 10inch trying to pump out sub 20Hz frequency, impressive, but at what price?

That graph only shows SPL, it doesn't show distortion. A 10inch trying to reproduce sub 20Hz frequencies will have CRAZY amounts of distortion. Is this what you are looking for in a sub?

And just to salt the wounds, here is the distortion graphs from the 5000R. A 15inch woofer doesn't create distortion because it's bigger right?

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4733

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

According to Sheep's last post it clearly shows more output potential with the Velo. I say keep it start enjoying it and tweaking for best performance.

A 10" driver can easily play deeper than a 15" driver, if the 15" driver is in a higher tuned vented enclosure. The 15" will have more output over its operating bandwidth by a pretty large margin, but a 10" (vented) tuned lower could play deeper. However, it will have to struggle a bit at those low frequencies to produce higher spl's. If the 10" and the 15" were in equally tuned, vented enclosures, the 15" would appear to play deeper as it can play the frequencies below the tuning frequency at a higher spl until the rolloff or infrasonic filter of the system renders them inaudible.

Depending upon the tuning frequency of the Velo, it is entirely possible that the 10" SVS plays a bit louder at low frequencies near it's native tuning frequency (around 20hz). Once the subwoofer's are "in room" this difference will disappear some.

The DSLR and CHTR series were tuned at either 34 or 32Hz (smaller driver versions 34Hz, larger 32Hz).

SheepStar

 

[Bluesmoke]

So any advice on what I should do?

My budget is $600CDN max for a sub. I already own an Energy S10.3. I bought the 5000r for $450 and still have the return window at Futrue Shop.

 

[Sheep]

So any advice on what I should do?

My budget is $600CDN max for a sub. I already own an Energy S10.3. I bought the 5000r for $450 and still have the return window at Futrue Shop.

Well, if you're considering this it sounds like you're not completely satisfied with the 5000R. You could take it back now, and try out dual S10.3s. Then if you aren't completely satisfied with that, you can take it back and get a PB-10NSD. I have a feeling you will be satisfied with that. Then you can sell your old S10.3.

SheepStar

 

[Bluesmoke]

I think what I'm going to do is see if there's a sale on the S10 sometime in the next 2 weeks, or I'll just buy one to test it with mine and then return it. If I don't think it can compete with the Velo in the 25hz+ range, then I won't keep it. It really sucks that I can't go low 20s with the Velo without massive distortion.

 

[annunaki]

The SVS is one of the best buys in getting even response into the low 20hz range. A DIY option could get you even better for less money if you are open to it. The Dayton High fidelity driver at parts express and the Infinity Perfect VQ are very nice options there.

 

[Bluesmoke]

The SVS is one of the best buys in getting even response into the low 20hz range. A DIY option could get you even better for less money if you are open to it. The Dayton High fidelity driver at parts express and the Infinity Perfect VQ are very nice options there.

Yea, but will the PB10 shake the floors like the 5000r in my room? The Energy S10.3 can't do it. I can barely feel any tactile effects from it. So I'm wondering exactly how much of an improvement am I going to get out of it over the Energy. I'd prefer to buy in Canada. WIth shipping from Parts Express, there's nothing to be saved.

 

[billy p]

Yea, but will the PB10 shake the floors like the 5000r in my room? The Energy S10.3 can't do it. I can barely feel any tactile effects from it. So I'm wondering exactly how much of an improvement am I going to get out of it over the Energy. I'd prefer to buy in Canada. WIth shipping from Parts Express, there's nothing to be saved.

I've ordered supplies from them(partsxpress). I didn't like their customer service and the actual shipping cost me more the than the parts I purchased! Although I saved a couple of bucks in place of buying locally, it wasn't worth the hassle.

 

[annunaki]

In the US parts express is a decent place to go. There may be other distributors who carry the items in question.

If you want shake the floors type output, along with very low frequency extension, I would look (at minimum) into the PB12, a diy sub woofer with a 12" woofer or larger, or a more expensive sub with lower tuning and a large driver.

 

[Matt34]

My first suggestion would be to return the Velo and sell the 10.3 and get a PB-12 and have no remorse.

2nd suggestion (if finances permit) sell the 10.3 and get a second Velo 5000r.



When I was running a single HSU VTF 3.2(comparable to the PB-12) in a room close in size to yours it would shake, rattle and roll anything not bolted down.

 

[annunaki]

After looking at the DLS-5000R again, something does not make sense. If the -3db point is at 23hz it cannot be tuned at 30hz. Here's why. Vented enclosures exibit a 24db/oct. rolloff below the tuning frequency. If it were tuned to 30hz, the response would be down -12db at just 25.5hz. This could be fixed with massive amounts of EQ but would then also probably destroy the driver.

Since we know that subs roll off at 24db/oct. in a vented enclosure the true tuning frequency should be around 24hz-24.5hz. (The sub will be -24db at 12hz, -12db at 18hz, -6db at 21hz and -3db at 22.5hz most likey rounded up to 23hz) My guess is that the infrasonic filter is also just below the tuning frequency since it rolls off so quickly probably at 20hz or so. Maybe even at the -3db point of 23hz.

Due to the high amounts of distortion showing on the plots, I would assume that the response rolls off from around 32hz or so and then sharply below the tuning frequency. To fix this (I assume) Velodyne has eq'ed the response in this region (24hz-30hz) to bring it in line with the rest of the woofer's response. The Eq is causing the woofer to have more distortion at the lower frequencies below 30hz.

Applying an eq below the tuning frequency is a big no-no so I doubt Velodyne have done this.

I like Matt34's options by the way.

 

[3db]

Whats going on here?

ten pages of "size matters" and no pics?

Come on guys!! Get with teh program already!!

 

[FIqbal]

Yea, but will the PB10 shake the floors like the 5000r in my room? The Energy S10.3 can't do it. I can barely feel any tactile effects from it. So I'm wondering exactly how much of an improvement am I going to get out of it over the Energy. I'd prefer to buy in Canada. WIth shipping from Parts Express, there's nothing to be saved.

---------------
In case you decide to buy SBS from Electronics for Less, based on my expereice I can tell you that you can negotiate the price for the SVS. I have brought an STF-2 from there and paid CAD 50 less than the advertised price. Since the seller will be saving on courier charges in case you pick it up, do not be afraid to make a counter offer.

 

[mike c]

After looking at the DLS-5000R again, something does not make sense. If the -3db point is at 23hz it cannot be tuned at 30hz. Here's why. Vented enclosures exibit a 24db/oct. rolloff below the tuning frequency. If it were tuned to 30hz, the response would be down -12db at just 25.5hz. This could be fixed with massive amounts of EQ but would then also probably destroy the driver.

Since we know that subs roll off at 24db/oct. in a vented enclosure the true tuning frequency should be around 24hz-24.5hz. (The sub will be -24db at 12hz, -12db at 18hz, -6db at 21hz and -3db at 22.5hz most likey rounded up to 23hz) My guess is that the infrasonic filter is also just below the tuning frequency since it rolls off so quickly probably at 20hz or so. Maybe even at the -3db point of 23hz.

Due to the high amounts of distortion showing on the plots, I would assume that the response rolls off from around 32hz or so and then sharply below the tuning frequency. To fix this (I assume) Velodyne has eq'ed the response in this region (24hz-30hz) to bring it in line with the rest of the woofer's response. The Eq is causing the woofer to have more distortion at the lower frequencies below 30hz.

Applying an eq below the tuning frequency is a big no-no so I doubt Velodyne have done this.

I like Matt34's options by the way.

the Axiom EP500 has an EQ boost below tuning (which is why it has tons of distortion) see the Audioholics review.

the Velo has an EQ boost near the tuning point, but still above it IF the tuning point is indeed 30hz or it could be higher seeing how short the port is.

http://www.velodyne.com/tech/whitepapers/Subwoofer tuning white paper2_final.pdf

see page 5