mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Sorry that should have read, "how many subs do you own?" (I was writing on my phone in the car... :) Wasn't paying attention...)
I have 3 decent subwoofers. (the first three on my signature)
2 SVS subwoofers that should arrive by May (4th and 5th on my signature)
1 SVS subwoofer I will get as soon as it is available (6th sub on my sig)
 
N

Nuglets

Full Audioholic
I clearly said it slaughters it in the low end...
SheepStar
Sorry I was under the impression that one buys a sub for the low end of the frequency response and the one that goes lower and louder is the better sub assuming they are both accurate/linear with respectable THD values. Also, I don't believe that the data you presented is necessarily an accurate portrayal of the Servo's or the SVS's capabilities. That is a test done by one person in room with certain characteristics and both of the subs are EQ'd. Just the direction the sub is firing can cause differences in sound wave interference and could explain why the Servo is only extending to 19Hz at -3dB in his test. There are too many variables to let one test tell all about the subs performance even when only looking at the frequency response of the sub. On the Paradigm website they claim a 12Hz low frequency extension at -3dB, not 19Hz and if it can truly do this(which I'm assuming it can) while remaining accurate and loud I think your statement about ported boxes slaughtering sealed box designs at low frequencies is flawed due to ignoring many other variables that make a good sub. Again, I don't like to argue about which is better, etc, etc, but I just don't agree with the idea that a ported design will always extend lower and be louder than a sealed design when ignoring every other variable. I agree that a ported enclosure is more efficient, as in the amount the driver actually has to move to go lower and louder, but which one actually gets lower has less distortion and is more accurate/linear is something that is not explained by this. It could easily be a sealed design in many cases that extends lower and gets louder. It may be at the expense of using more electricity for stronger amps and require a larger/better driver, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a higher cost because there are many other factors that go into the price, especially shipping in the case of SVS.

Sure a ported box may give you better results with all else equal except enclosure design, but when comparing the Servo and SVS there is hardly anything equal about them. After the shipping cost is added to the SVS, or after working with a dealer on the price of the Servo, I'm guessing you can probably get them for relatively similar prices with a deviation of a maybe a few hundred dollars.
 
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majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
I have 3 decent subwoofers. (the first three on my signature)
2 SVS subwoofers that should arrive by May (4th and 5th on my signature)
1 SVS subwoofer I will get as soon as it is available (6th sub on my sig)
At some point there needs to be a VTF-3HO w/turbo thrown in there. :rolleyes:
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Sorry I was under the impression that one buys a sub for the low end of the frequency response and the one that goes lower and louder is the better sub assuming they are both accurate/linear with respectable THD values. Also, I don't believe that the data you presented is necessarily an accurate portrayal of the Servo's capabilities.
Well, considering both subs were reviewed by the same person, in the same room, using the same microphone and recording programs, I think its pretty frigging close. The difference isn't going to give you another 5Hz of extension.

That is a test done by one person in room with certain characteristics and both of the subs are EQ'd. Just the direction the sub is firing can cause differences in sound wave interference and could explain why the Servo is only extending to 19Hz at -3dB in his test.
Yes, but the SVS sub is using a build in EQ, IE: something that COMES with the subwoofer. The Paradigm is using an outboard, EQ, that is more bands then the SVS EQ, and is subsequently better. The driver orientation doesn't affect low frequencies. The SVS extended lower because it can. Any room anomaly would affect them both, not just the paradigm.

There are too many variables to let one test tell all about the subs performance even when only looking at the frequency response of the sub. On the Paradigm website they claim a 12Hz low frequency extension at -3dB, not 19Hz and if it can truly do this(which I'm assuming it can) while remaining accurate and loud I think your statement about ported boxes slaughtering sealed box designs at low frequencies is flawed due to ignoring many other variables that make a good sub.
Maybe, Paradigm lied? No, couldn't be, there must be some other magical flaw that caused this to happen.... Yep.

What are these other variables that you keep mentioning? I mean, the THD is is fine, the subs were both measured using the same equipment in the same room, and used the same sweep... what am I missing? Maybe the subs were different... well, the cheaper one should have lost.

Again, I don't like to argue about which is better, etc, etc, but I just don't agree with the idea that a ported design will always extend lower and be louder than a sealed design when ignoring every other variable. I agree that a ported enclosure is more efficient, as in the amount the driver actually has to move to go lower and louder, but which one actually gets lower has less distortion and is more accurate/linear is something that is not explained by this.
Well, ported systems play well up to the tuning point. Then the the output drops quickly, and THD rises quickly. Sealed subs gradually roll off and gradually gain THD. Difference? It's easier to get a ported sub to play lower.

It could easily be a sealed design in many cases that extends lower and gets louder. It may be at the expense of using more electricity for stronger amps and require a larger/better driver, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a higher cost because there are many other factors that go into the price, especially shipping in the case of SVS.
Take that same amount of money and put into a ported design and I'll bet it goes lower, and plays louder until its -3dB point.

Sure a ported box may give you better results with all else equal except enclosure design, but when comparing the Servo and SVS there is hardly anything equal about them. After the shipping cost is added to the SVS, or after working with a dealer on the price of the Servo, I'm guessing you can probably get them for relatively similar prices with a deviation of a maybe a few hundred dollars.
Well the PB-12plus costs $1000 shipping is ~150? Paradigm is $2200 and shipping would be ~70? Doesn't look that close to me. Considering you can still get the PB-12plus/2 for less, and have even more output, as well as extension and lower THD, seems like a simple choice.

But that's just my opinion.

SheepStar
 
N

Nuglets

Full Audioholic
Well, considering both subs were reviewed by the same person, in the same room, using the same microphone and recording programs, I think its pretty frigging close. The difference isn't going to give you another 5Hz of extension.

Yes, but the SVS sub is using a build in EQ, IE: something that COMES with the subwoofer. The Paradigm is using an outboard, EQ, that is more bands then the SVS EQ, and is subsequently better. The driver orientation doesn't affect low frequencies. The SVS extended lower because it can. Any room anomaly would affect them both, not just the paradigm.

SheepStar
Explain to me why driver orientation makes no difference in frequency response? I'm talking about nulls and peaks caused by the sound waves bouncing around and interfering with each other either constructively or destructively that could be causing a difference, which wouldn't necessarily affect both subs equally.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Explain to me why driver orientation makes no difference? I'm talking about nulls and peaks caused by the sound waves bouncing around and interfering with each other either constructively or destructively.
Driver orientation: The way the driver is seated on the sub box. Down firing, front, etc etc. Bass radiates equally from the point source. As long as the subwoofer is in the same spot, it will play the same.

SheepStar
 
N

Nuglets

Full Audioholic
Driver orientation: The way the driver is seated on the sub box. Down firing, front, etc etc. Bass radiates equally from the point source. As long as the subwoofer is in the same spot, it will play the same.

SheepStar
I don't think that's true...Take a sealed sub for example...if it's placed so the driver is facing the wall I'm guessing it will sound much different than if it's facing towards you even if it's in the same point on the floor.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think that's true...Take a sealed sub for example...if it's placed so the driver is facing the wall I'm guessing it will sound much different than if it's facing towards you even if it's in the same point on the floor.
Low frequencies are not affected by this, only high frequencies.

So you whole point about the low end not being true is pretty much destroyed.

SheepStar
 
N

Nuglets

Full Audioholic
Low frequencies are not affected by this, only high frequencies.

So you whole point about the low end not being true is pretty much destroyed.

SheepStar
Ouch that's harsh...Anyways, I disagree that it makes no difference at low frequencies. Since you say bass radiates equally from the point source, if I put my head near the back or side of a sealed sub box it should be just as loud as the front where the driver is, correct? It's not I've tried. Are you saying that there is no constructive/destructive interference at low frequencies as well? If not, then please explain to me what causes constructive/destructive interference. I am under the impression that interference is caused by the waves bouncing around the room in many directions and at the places where a peak meets a peak or a trough meets a peak you get either constructive or destructive interference respectively. If this is the case then the orientation should make just as much difference as placement around the room because the origin of the wave and the first wall it bounces off should affect where and how these interferences occur, right?
 
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Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Ouch that's harsh...Anyways, I disagree that it makes no difference at low frequencies. Since you say bass radiates equally from the point source, if I put my head near the back or side of a sealed sub box it should be just as loud as the front where the driver is, correct? It's not I've tried. Are you saying that there is no constructive/destructive interference at low frequencies as well? If not, then please explain to me what causes constructive/destructive interference. I am under the impression that interference is caused by the waves bouncing around the room in many directions and at the places where a peak meets a peak or a trough meets a peak you get either constructive or destructive interference respectively. If this is the case then the orientation should make just as much difference as placement around the room because the origin of the wave and the first wall it bounces off should affect where and how these interferences occur, right?
When you get farther away from the sub, do you hear a difference? Low frequency sound waves are VERY LONG, and they don't interact like high frequencies do when close to walls. Yes it gets louder, but they don't bounce around like crazy and cause 5Hz of extension to go away.

SheepStar
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
At some point there needs to be a VTF-3HO w/turbo thrown in there. :rolleyes:
err. I can't stomach the washing machine look of the HO's. plus the fact, I have no way of getting them. (nor are they offered in 220v)
 
P

pbarach1

Audioholic
Anyways, I disagree that it makes no difference at low frequencies. Since you say bass radiates equally from the point source, if I put my head near the back or side of a sealed sub box it should be just as loud as the front where the driver is, correct? It's not I've tried.
Are you sure that what you're actually getting from your sub is ONLY low frequencies? Since the signal that goes to a sub is rolled off below the crossover frequency, rather than sharply cut off, when you're putting your head next to the sub, you are likely hearing some frequencies from above your crossover frequency. However, because they are at a lower volume than the frequencies below the crossover point, you would hear these higher frequencies until you move far enough away from the driver that they are below your threshold of audibility. After that, you would not be able to localize your sub's output.

Concerning room boundary effects, I don't think they are directional. If you're sitting at a point where there's a room mode, then the whole room will sound like it's rumbling when the sub hits that frequency.

Another thing to consider is that if you have the crossover point set low and you can still localize your sub, perhaps what you're actually hearing is the sympathetic vibration (including higher-frequency overtones) of something in the room that is resonating at a frequency being output by your sub.
 
N

Nuglets

Full Audioholic
Are you sure that what you're actually getting from your sub is ONLY low frequencies? Since the signal that goes to a sub is rolled off below the crossover frequency, rather than sharply cut off, when you're putting your head next to the sub, you are likely hearing some frequencies from above your crossover frequency. However, because they are at a lower volume than the frequencies below the crossover point, you would hear these higher frequencies until you move far enough away from the driver that they are below your threshold of audibility. After that, you would not be able to localize your sub's output.

Concerning room boundary effects, I don't think they are directional. If you're sitting at a point where there's a room mode, then the whole room will sound like it's rumbling when the sub hits that frequency.

Another thing to consider is that if you have the crossover point set low and you can still localize your sub, perhaps what you're actually hearing is the sympathetic vibration (including higher-frequency overtones) of something in the room that is resonating at a frequency being output by your sub.
No, I can't localize the bass in my setup. I was talking about constructive/destructive interference that could potentially change when the direction the sub is facing changes. Apparently if I were to turn a sealed sub around and point the driver at the wall it will make absolutely no difference than if it's pointing towards me according to Sheep. I'm not sure if that's exactly accurate and I don't really have any ways of testing so I'll just leave it at that.

What I was basically getting at originally is this...the Paradigm Servo is supposed to have a low frequency extension of 12Hz at -3dB and the graph shown by Sheep indicates that it is actually 19Hz at -3dB so I am wondering if there is an issue that can be causing this other than that 'Paradigm is lying about the specs'.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
What I was basically getting at originally is this...the Paradigm Servo is supposed to have a low frequency extension of 12Hz at -3dB and the graph shown by Sheep indicates that it is actually 19Hz at -3dB so I am wondering if there is an issue that can be causing this other than that 'Paradigm is lying about the specs'.
That would depend on how the tests were performed, distance from the sub, SPL level of the test, etc.

If you look at this AVTalk graph:

+/-3dB points: 17.3Hz -> >150Hz

The stated +/-3db points are taken from the 85db plot.
If we use the 105db plot the +/-3db points change to about:
+/-3dB points: 24Hz -> >150Hz

Paradigm probably use 75db as their plot(This is pure speculation) which, looking at the graph, would lower the -3db point blow 15Hz

cheers:)
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
LOL..........MACCA350 you forgot to add the wires in your signature ;)

Ok Mike, your move.
 
no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
Originally Posted by Nuglets
What I was basically getting at originally is this...the Paradigm Servo is supposed to have a low frequency extension of 12Hz at -3dB and the graph shown by Sheep indicates that it is actually 19Hz at -3dB so I am wondering if there is an issue that can be causing this other than that 'Paradigm is lying about the specs'.
That would depend on how the tests were performed, distance from the sub, SPL level of the test, etc.

If you look at this AVTalk graph:

+/-3dB points: 17.3Hz -> >150Hz

The stated +/-3db points are taken from the 85db plot.
If we use the 105db plot the +/-3db points change to about:
+/-3dB points: 24Hz -> >150Hz

Paradigm probably use 75db as their plot(This is pure speculation) which, looking at the graph, would lower the -3db point blow 15Hz

cheers:)
What about the room (or lack there of) the sub was tested in?

would there be a deference in LF extension if it was not tested anechoic?

The specs for all the Klipsch subwoofers I have looked at had their specs as 1/8 space; do we know what the official Paradigm spec is from an anechoic measure, or a 1/2 space measure, or 1/4, or 1/8? :confused:
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
I quoted in-room measurements from Ed Mullen in my last post with pictures. As you can clearly see, the Servo drops off. The PB-12Plus in 16Hz tune keeps going to almost 10Hz.

SheepStar
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
What about the room (or lack there of) the sub was tested in?

would there be a deference in LF extension if it was not tested anechoic?
Absolutely, there is normally a boost to extension when doing in-room response(Room Gain). Those tests I posted are done outside with the mic at ground plane and 2 meters from the sub.

The specs for all the Klipsch subwoofers I have looked at had their specs as 1/8 space; do we know what the official Paradigm spec is from an anechoic measure, or a 1/2 space measure, or 1/4, or 1/8? :confused:
Not sure what you mean by 1/8, 1/2 and 1/4 in relation to what we're talking about. Paradigm have there own anechoic chamber, so I'm assuming their measurements would be taken in it.

majorloser said:
LOL..........MACCA350 you forgot to add the wires in your signature

Ok Mike, your move.
:D Yeah, I was board one afternoon and after seeing Mike's sig I couldn't help myself;)
I'll probably change it back sometime

cheers:)
 
no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
Paradigm have there own anechoic chamber, so I'm assuming their measurements would be taken in it.
That's what I was wondering. Thanks MAC. :)
Not sure what you mean by 1/8, 1/2 and 1/4 in relation to what we're talking about.
Not sure how much relation it has to what is being talked about :)eek: ), but it was a question of whether Paradigm's measurements were taking with just a ground plane (1/2 space), or next to a wall (1/4 space), or in a corner (1/8 space).



(P.S. I'm sorry if this post seems like I'm patronizing, but that is not my intent; it's late, and I'm tired :eek:)
 
N

Nuglets

Full Audioholic
That would depend on how the tests were performed, distance from the sub, SPL level of the test, etc.

If you look at this AVTalk graph:

+/-3dB points: 17.3Hz -> >150Hz

The stated +/-3db points are taken from the 85db plot.
If we use the 105db plot the +/-3db points change to about:
+/-3dB points: 24Hz -> >150Hz

Paradigm probably use 75db as their plot(This is pure speculation) which, looking at the graph, would lower the -3db point blow 15Hz

cheers:)
How do you get that though? Now according to the graph you posted the Servo only goes down to 20Hz, -3dB at 85dB. If Paradigm's measurement was at 75dB I don't foresee it changing a whole 8dB compared to the 85dB measurement done by avtalk unless Paradigm is completely lying about the specs.

I have the Paradigm 90P's and in my old room, which was HUGE(~20x20x18 plus the large kitchen area it opened to), they extended to 26Hz, -3dB and at 85dB, which is only 3Hz less than the Paradigm website suggests so considering the Servo is rated to 12Hz at -3dB and is more expensive than both of my front speakers combined I just don't see how they could possibly get away with advertising it as 12Hz and still sell it if in actuality it doesn't extend anywhere near 12Hz at -3dB, but is actually 20Hz, -3dB at 85dB, which is quite close to the performance of my(quite a bit cheaper) speakers from the same company.:confused:
 
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