Paradigm Subwoofer

[Sheep]

I think the Servo 15v2 will not let anyone down in power, depth, precision and overall performance.
I have no idea how it will stack up to the Ultra 13 but I have no doubt it will not be embarrassed by it. The Servo is still 15", the 13 is 13"; the Servo is a sealed, servo-controlled sub and as such is very fast and accurate.
Maybe someone will be kind enough to lend an Ultra 13 when it comes out to AV Talk and they can run the same subwoofer tests on it.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Servo has better overall results under 60Hz and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the SVS either.
Regardless of which you choose you're getting a mother sub that will be the envy of over 99% of people that visit you; you're good to go and enjoy music and HT the way it was meant to be enjoyed.

The SVS ported units will slaughter a sealed unit in the low end. Sealed subs just don't have the efficiency to produce high SPLs low down.

The New PB-13Ultra is going to have 4 different tuning points. 20Hz, 15Hz, 10Hz, and sealed. The larger enclosure and ported box will give it higher SPLs and the ability to reach lower frequencies.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

And to prove my point from above, I give you in-room responses of the Servo-15V2 and the PB-12plus (with the 12.2 driver, not 12.3).

Both reviews were conducted in the same manner by the same person.

Here is the Servo-15V2s in-room response.

And here is the PB-12plus.

Note how the Servo-15V2 is using an outboard EQ, while the SVS is using the built in single band parametric EQ.

EDIT: Hm, the SVS picture won't appear. Just click it to see the graph.

SheepStar

 

[j_garcia]

The only sub I would rate as good as the Servo 15v2 from SVS is the Ultra/2, which is a mean, mean sub. 190lbs for crying out loud.
Anything else from SVS is topped by the Servo-15v2 or the Velodyne DD-15.

I have heard the DD-15 and the 20-39 Plus and I would have to disagree on the DD-15. The Plus had no problem keeping up with the DD-15 IMHO. I have only heard the Servo15 once and it was in a very large but sound controlled showroom.

 

[dobyblue]

The SVS ported units will slaughter a sealed unit in the low end.

That's nonsense and completely disregards amplification.

 

[dobyblue]

And to prove my point from above, I give you in-room responses of the Servo-15V2 and the PB-12plus (with the 12.2 driver, not 12.3).

Yes a frequency sweep is one of many ways to determine the performance of a subwoofer.
Overall it looks like the Servo received better scores.

20Hz	16Hz	Servo	Category
4	[B]4.5	4.5[/B]	Balance
4.25	4.25	[B]4.75[/B]	Definition
4.5	4.5	[B]4.75[/B]	Pitch
4	4.25	[B]4.5[/B]	Coherence 
4.5	[B]5[/B]	4.75	Deep Extension

[B]4.75[/B]	4.25	4.5	Mid-bass dynamics
4.75	4.25	[B]5[/B]	Audible artifacts
4.5	[B]5[/B]	4	Deep extension
[B]5[/B]	4.5	3.5	Deep-bass compression

The SPL's are higher at the lowest frequencies tested on the Servo as well.
The 16Hz port did test favourably against either the 20Hz port or Servo in the output compression test. One might think not at first glance, but the 16Hz port graph ends at the 10Hz mark. HOWEVER the overall output is not matching that of the Servo and doesn't even get above 105dB.


16Hz

20Hz

Servo

Ed also keeps the testing limited on the SVS at 10% THD. He also has this to say.
While there is debate over distortion audibility thresholds, my own experience indicates that THD exceeding 10% will cause audible doubling, a loss of clarity, and noticeable pitch shifting during normal music and movie playback.

When you look at the graphs on AV Talk you can see that the THD for the PB12 hits 14% at 20Hz and 100dB, skyrocketing way above that at 105dB to over 30%. It's audible, but less noticeable in movies than in music.

Anyway before you think I have something against SVS, let me just show you something I posted a few weeks ago to someone looking to appreciate PCM more on Blu-ray.

I kind of read this a little wrong and went with 2K speakers, 1K subwoofer. I didn't realise the 1k was for a receiver.

But anyway let me give you the systems I thought you should consider.
For the dealers that aren't online and aren't Crutchfield/Tweeter you should check out Audio Video Solutions of Maryland - they're within 30 minutes of Washington DC.

14621 Baltimore Avenue
Laurel, Md 20707

The two systems I recommend you check out there are from Klipsch and Paradigm, speakers only as I'm budgeting for only speakers. I'm going to give you two options in most cases for rears, one is direct and one is surround. If you love hirez music as well then go for the directs, if your interest is only movies then you should strongly consider the surrounds. Surrounds are also fine for music though, don't get me wrong.

Paradigm.
The monitor line, which is what I have, is probably the best bang for buck of any high definition speaker I've heard. Incredibly accurate. No option for directs here, the ADP will do a stellar job of creating a surround field that sounds like you have 7.1
Fronts - Monitor 9v5 ($849)
Centre - Monitor CC290 ($300)
Rears (surround) - Monitor ADP390 ($300)
Total - $1450

Klipsch
Fronts - RF63 ($500)
Centre - RC52 ($300)
Rears (direct) - RB61 ($400)
Rears (surround) - S3 ($450)
Total - $1200 (direct) or $1250 (surround)

Polk Audio
For the Polks I would consider looking at this set-up
Fronts - RTi12 ($700)
Centre - CSi5 ($400)
Rears (direct) - RTi4 ($270)
Rears (surround) - FXi3 ($350)
Total - $1370 (direct) or $1450 (surround)

Axiom
For online some of the most well reviewed speakers are from Axiom.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/
Fronts - FM60v2 ($960)
Centre - VP100v2 ($250)
Rears (surround) - QS8 ($420)
Total - $1630

For your subwoofer and to get maximum amount of depth, clarity and power under $1,000 there are two subs that will blow your mind and give you the realism that will have your system be the envy of all your friends.

Hsu
VTF-3 HO - $899
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-ho.html
Bass extension of 16Hz and 500 Watts.

But the one I think would really suit you.

SVS Subwoofers
16-46 PC–Plus - $949
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-plpow1.cfm
525 Watts with +/-3dB down to 16Hz and usable extension down to 12Hz.
This is a cylindrical subwoofer. The advantages are a much smaller footprint than the traditional cube subs and because of that a much larger WAF. (Wife Acceptance Factor.)

So these options would all put you into an audiophile level 5.1 system. My choice? The Paradigm set-up with the SVS Subwoofer. You'll have a ****-eating grin for days. The only negative thing I'd say about the Polks is that they concentrate a little too much on raw power and not enough on sheer sound reproduction. Having said that, I'm comparing it to the other speakers on the list, not to Yamaha and Bose speakers. Keep that in mind.

If you're down at Tweeter have a listen to the Martin Logan Vantage. They're out of your price range (and mine) but well worth listening to what electrostatic speakers sound like - they are lightning quick.

For receivers you want one that can accept audio through HDMI and at the same time has balls. The speaker packages I've suggested will all be timbre-matched giving you a smooth sound all around, not having one speaker making another stick out like a sore thumb, but also are all designed to handle a minimum of 100 watts per channel with no worries and have no more than 3dB loss at 80 Hz, which would accurately satisfy THX specifications. So look to a receiver that is also at least 100 watts per channel to get the best out of them.

The Denon AVR-3806 is a mother receiver which lists at $1299 but through Best Buy Plasma is only $792.99 and sports a lovely 120W x 7 channels.
HDMI 1.1 specs will allow for your player to pass lossless audio through HDMI as PCM and will also allow for 1080p switching to your television.
Here are the specs (far too many to list)
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/623.asp
Here's BBP's price on it. They are very reliable and very trustworthy.
http://bestbuyplasma.com/Plasma/Product.asp_X_Sku_Y_AVR3806B

Want something to tide you over until the HDMI 1.3 receiver of your dreams is released? How about Onkyo's 7.1 (90w x 7) TXSR-604? Accepts audio through HDMI and meets 1.1 specs.
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-SR604&class=Receiver&p=i
Available on BBP for only $349!
That would give you the leeway to get the right subwoofer as well wouldn't it?
Here's the Onkyo on BBP
http://bestbuyplasma.com/Plasma/Product.asp_X_Sku_Y_TXSR604B

Paradigm + SVS Sub + Denon 3806 = @ $3191

Bung! Any questions don't hesitate to ask.

 

[billy p]

I like to

commened dobyblue for his stance. Some members like to push the ID brand and that's fine. For me and I'm no expert, the lower extension arguement is way over used! To me the musical aspect is far more important. I'm sure the ID subs are great and I've heard a few, but if money was no object I'd seriously look at the servo15v2 or the DD15.
*Just my 2 cents*

 

[Sheep]

Doby, you might want to read the fine print, that was the single driver plus, using the old driver. The Dual driver will have lower THD (and still be an inaudible difference) as well as more SPL, and lower extension.

That sub is only $1000 vs. the Servo-15s $2200 price tag. You could buy 2 and have more output, extension, as well as a flatter response.

SheepStar

 

[BabelFish]

I feel like you two have had this conversation before You two are great

 

[Nuglets]

That sub is only $1000 vs. the Servo-15s $2200 price tag. You could buy 2 and have more output, extension, as well as a flatter response.

SheepStar

What is the shipping on a sub that weighs in at 140lbs? I'm sure that SVS ends up being quite a bit more than $1000 considering that it has a $1299 list price and must be shipped. I'm not trying to argue but you it seems like you are trying to claim that the Servo is an embarrassment when compared to the SVS and I don't buy it.

 

[j_garcia]

I think what he is getting at is that for roughly half the price, an SVS can achieve more than the average person needs compared to the Servo15. If someone has $2K to spend and wanted to go to that next level, then maybe a Servo15 or DD15 is the way to go.

 

[BabelFish]

it seems like you are trying to claim that the Servo is an embarrassment when compared to the SVS and I don't buy it.

I didn't get that same impression when I read his posts...

 

[Nuglets]

The SVS ported units will slaughter a sealed unit in the low end. Sealed subs just don't have the efficiency to produce high SPLs low down.

This statement is one that led me to my previous post. Maybe I'm reading into it more than I should but I interpret as 'The SVS will slaughter a Servo(sealed unit) hands down'. Then considering the price difference I get...an embarrassment. Unless that is supposed to be a comparison between two SVS units similar in everything but enclosure type, it completely ignores many other aspects that make up a sub-woofer and the way it will perform.

 

[no. 5]

[I like to] commened dobyblue for his stance. Some members like to push the ID brand and that's fine. For me and I'm no expert, the lower extension arguement is way over used! To me the musical aspect is far more important. I'm sure the ID subs are great and I've heard a few, but if money was no object I'd seriously look at the servo15v2 or the DD15.
*Just my 2 cents*

I'm with billy here; ID brands are great and a good value, and highly worth recommending, but this back and forth stuff about who is better/louder at inaudible frequencies is getting old.

 

[Sheep]

This statement is one that led me to my previous post. Maybe I'm reading into it more than I should but I interpret as 'The SVS will slaughter a Servo(sealed unit) hands down'. Then considering the price difference I get...an embarrassment. Unless that is supposed to be a comparison between two SVS units similar in everything but enclosure type, it completely ignores many other aspects that make up a sub-woofer and the way it will perform.

I clearly said it slaughters it in the low end, which BOTH of my graphs showed. These are not just random claims without any backup. Stop adding words and read whats there please.

No.5,

Other then you and Billy P, no one has even mentioned the fact that the two subs are from ID, and retail companies. Again, people are reading between the lines and adding in what they want to hear.

Sorry guys, but its just a debate between the performance of 2 different subs.

SheepStar

 

[no. 5]

No.5,

Other then you and Billy P, no one has even mentioned the fact that the two subs are from ID, and retail companies. Again, people are reading between the lines and adding in what they want to hear.

Sorry guys, but its just a debate between the performance of 2 different subs.

SheepStar

I guess I put my last post in the wrong thread.
you have me there Sheep, I was wrong to assume that it was a 'ID Vs. other' debate, however I do still find 'who is better at inaudible frequencies' tiring, but don't mind me continue your debate.

 

[Sheep]

I guess I put my last post in the wrong thread.
you have me there Sheep, I was wrong to assume that it was a 'ID Vs. other' debate, however I do still find 'who is better at inaudible frequencies' tiring, but don't mind me continue your debate.

See, something like this makes me wonder. If you haven't experienced a subwoofer that can literally shake you, or make those "inaudible" frequencies real, them maybe you shouldn't be recommending subwoofers at all. I mean, the subwoofers pass-band is small enough, buying one that is "Musical" (IE: has slightly lower THD that won't make a difference anywhere except in your head and ego) but only plays to 35Hz, doesn't really make it a subwoofer. Also, Ported subs are not some sort of trade off. You can have extremely linear ported subwoofers, as well as sealed. Some sealed subs have a different sound (the "sealed" sound), but that is only due to a shallower roll off, that starts higher up then more decent ported subs(and by decent, I mean subwoofers that use lower tuning points).

The Velodyne DD series subs or the Servo-15s perform the way they do because they've been over engineered to overcome some of the flaws in their enclosures. The NEED giant wattage to hit SPLs because they are no where near as efficient as ported subs. The also need massive drivers to move as much as as they can (for the same reason).

*takes breath*

So, if you like Paradigm's products, SVS's or Velodyne's, thats great. Heck, I own a Velodyne subwoofer too (and a fairly crappy one at that), but you can't argue with facts. The large ported subwoofers have the best chance at being a good subwoofer. You don't need massive amps, or super long throw drivers. This in tern cuts the costs, which makes them a bargain. There isn't a gun at all the other sub companies heads telling them to make small, sealed, expensive subs. It's their choice, and you must be prepared for others to think it's not worth spending the extra money on.

SheepStar
EDIT: No.5, this post wasn't directed at you, more so Newbie.

 

[no. 5]

See, something like this makes me wonder. If you haven't experienced a subwoofer that can literally shake you, or make those "inaudible" frequencies real, them maybe you shouldn't be recommending subwoofers at all. I mean, the subwoofers pass-band is small enough, buying one that is "Musical" (IE: has slightly lower THD that won't make a difference anywhere except in your head and ego) but only plays to 35Hz, doesn't really make it a subwoofer. Also, Ported subs are not some sort of trade off. You can have extremely linear ported subwoofers, as well as sealed. Some sealed subs have a different sound (the "sealed" sound), but that is only due to a shallower roll off, that starts higher up then more decent ported subs(and by decent, I mean subwoofers that use lower tuning points).

The Velodyne DD series subs or the Servo-15s perform the way they do because they've been over engineered to overcome some of the flaws in their enclosures. The NEED giant wattage to hit SPLs because they are no where near as efficient as ported subs. The also need massive drivers to move as much as as they can (for the same reason).

*takes breath*

So, if you like Paradigm's products, SVS's or Velodyne's, thats great. Heck, I own a Velodyne subwoofer too (and a fairly crappy one at that), but you can't argue with facts. The large ported subwoofers have the best chance at being a good subwoofer. You don't need massive amps, or super long throw drivers. This in tern cuts the costs, which makes them a bargain. There isn't a gun at all the other sub companies heads telling them to make small, sealed, expensive subs. It's their choice, and you must be prepared for others to think it's not worth spending the extra money on.

SheepStar

breath man breath! having low oxygen in your blood is bad!

I said that I find a "who is better at inaudible frequencies" debate tiring, I did not say that having a sub that will make those inaudible frequencies known or felt is 'bad' or undesirable; A subwoofer is there to fill in the bass 80Hz (or from wherever one prefers their xover) and down to... well the bottom of the first octave, or even to 0Hz if you’re talking movies , to me anyway, the band between 20Hz and 80Hz is far more important to the makings of a good sub than how high of a SPL it can get at a frequency that cannot be heard (alertly, one that can be felt), after all, just how much is out there that is under 20Hz.

Obviously a large ported sub (like a SVS! ) would be a great subwoofer, in my mind there is no way that a subwoofer the size of a SVS could even be a bad sub, my feelings are that since a subwoofer operates mostly in the audible spectrum, that is what I think should be primarily considered when choosing and recommending a subwoofer, being able to shake the house is just iceing on the cake.

EDIT: (you edited as I was typing) just explaining myself, no offence taken Sheep (not much anyway... ).

 

[dobyblue]

I think what he is getting at is that for roughly half the price, an SVS can achieve more than the average person needs compared to the Servo15. If someone has $2K to spend and wanted to go to that next level, then maybe a Servo15 or DD15 is the way to go.

Agreed. You can take all the breaths you want but when output, accuracy and low extension are all key requirements for you sub and you don't mind spending the money, nothing outside the Ultra/2 can best the Servo 15v2, and by that point you're spending the same money anyway, before shipping and handling.
The Servo 15v2 hits 12Hz and with very little distortion at high output levels. There are many ways to test this and I have done several of them, all resulting in frequencies that I can't hear, but the whole house and I sure do feel.

 

[dobyblue]

See, something like this makes me wonder. If you haven't experienced a subwoofer that can literally shake you, or make those "inaudible" frequencies real, them maybe you shouldn't be recommending subwoofers at all. I mean, the subwoofers pass-band is small enough, buying one that is "Musical" (IE: has slightly lower THD that won't make a difference anywhere except in your head and ego) but only plays to 35Hz, doesn't really make it a subwoofer.

Fortunately we're not talking about a sub that has this sort of performance. I would imagine you're not suggesting for a second that either the DD-15 or the Servo 15v2 only hit as low as 35Hz, because that would be ludicrous. I'm trying to read the fine print to see if you meant something else but I don't see it.
Servo 15v2 has extension to 12Hz - if that's not the kind of output that shakes your very soul, I don't know what is.

See, something like this makes me wonder. If you haven't experienced a subwoofer that can literally shake you, or make those "inaudible" frequencies real, them maybe you shouldn't be recommending subwoofers at all. I mean, the subwoofers pass-band is small enough, buying one that is "Musical" (IE: has slightly lower THD that won't make a difference anywhere except in your head and ego) but only plays to 35Hz, doesn't really make it a subwoofer.

Fortunately we're not talking about a sub that has this sort of performance. I would imagine you're not suggesting for a second that either the DD-15 or the Servo 15v2 only hit as low as 35Hz, because that would be ludicrous. I'm trying to read the fine print to see if you meant something else but I don't see it.
Servo 15v2 has extension to 12Hz - if that's not the kind of output that shakes your very soul, I don't know what is.
THD above 10% being either in your head or part of your ego is subjective. You don't notice it, I and Ed Mullen do.

 

[billy p]

Well

Sheep, I only stated I'm no expert and I believe SVS is a ID company. So if you have the money there are other choices. I might be wrong but most peoples hearing will not extend below 20Hz and below 15Hz its plain overkill. I would like to ask you if money was no object what would you buy? I myself wouldn't go the ID brand even though they are excellent value.

PS: GO CANUCKS. The trade looks good now.
billy p