Paradigm Subwoofer

[ParadigmDawg]

It's amazing what kind of deals you can get from a high-end AV place just by befriending these guys. I worked only with the owner. When I first began dealing with this guy the prices were way higher on everything I was ooking at. I spent a lot of time just talking to this guy in person, emails and on the phone. A lot of the time we never even talked about stereo stuff; I just found out what his interests were and talked about that. After 2 or 3 weeks he called me up and said "come into the store" I have some deals for you. I truly walked out of there for ~3 grand cheaper than what the prices were the first time I stepped into the store.

 

[j_garcia]

That's the way to do it. I have great rapport with all of the local shops I deal with.

 

[dobyblue]

I got my Servo 15v2 for $1750CDN - it had been in a customer's home for 1 day. It didn't look like they even took it out the box.
That was a steal.

I have to disagree about the Servo v2 vs. the HSU and SVS subs. I think you have to go to the Ultra/2 to get the performace of the Servo 15v2 for quickness, depth and distortion. Rumble is one thing, making it out clearly is another. With the accuracy of the PCM tracks on Blu-ray today, perception is the key.
The DD-15 doesn't match the Servo 15v2 down low for accuracy and output.

Servo - 40HZ/100dB = 1%
PB12+2 - 40HZ/100dB = 1%
DD15 - 40Hz/100dB = 1.5%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) - 40Hz/100dB = 2%
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) - 40Hz/100dB = 1%

Servo - 30HZ/100dB = 3%
PB12+2 - 30HZ/100dB = 4%
DD15 - 30Hz/100dB = 2.5%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) - 30Hz/100dB = 4%
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) - 30Hz/100dB = 5%

Servo - 20HZ/100dB = 5.5%
PB12+2 - 20HZ/100dB = 14.5%
DD15 - 20Hz/100dB = 9.5%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) - 20Hz/100dB = 7%
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) - 20Hz/100dB = 28%

Servo - 40HZ/105dB = 1.5%
PB12+2 - 40HZ/105dB = 1.5%
DD15 - 40Hz/105dB = 2.25%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 105db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 105db ratings not available

Servo - 30HZ/105dB = 3%
PB12+2 - 30HZ/105dB = 7.5%
DD15 - 30Hz/105dB = 3%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 105db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 105db ratings not available

Servo - 20HZ/105dB = 7%
PB12+2 - 20HZ/105dB = 30%
DD15 - 20Hz/105dB = 13.5%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 105db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 105db ratings not available

Servo - 40HZ/110dB = 2.25%
PB12+2 - 40HZ/110dB = 110db ratings not available
DD15 - 40Hz/110dB = 2.5%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 110db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 110db ratings not available

Servo - 30HZ/110dB = 4.5%
PB12+2 - 30HZ/110dB = 110db ratings not available
DD15 - 30Hz/110dB = 3.75%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 110db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 110db ratings not available

Servo - 20HZ/110dB = 7.5%
PB12+2 - 20HZ/110dB = 110db ratings not available
DD15 - 20Hz/110dB = 13.5%
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 110db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 110db ratings not available

Servo - 40HZ/115dB = 3%
PB12+2 - 40HZ/115dB = 115db ratings not available
DD15 - 40Hz/115dB = 115db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 115db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 115db ratings not available

Servo - 30HZ/115dB = 4.75%
PB12+2 - 30HZ/115dB = 115db ratings not available
DD15 - 30Hz/115dB = 115db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 115db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 115db ratings not available

Servo - 20HZ/115dB = 9.5%
PB12+2 - 20HZ/115dB = 115db ratings not available
DD15 - 20Hz/115dB = 115db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (12Hz) 115db ratings not available
20-39 PC Plus (20Hz) 115db ratings not available

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14971&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

The results are for the Signature Servo, which is the exact same sub as the Servo 15v2.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Holy cow dobyblue; all those numbers make it seem like I was stupid for saying that they seemed really close when I did a a/b test on them.

All I know is that the Servo makes me smile.

 

[RMarsh83]

I knew that my obsession with the Servo was justified... thanks doby! Do you have those same figures for the 16-46 PC Plus too? Or is it pretty much the same as the 20-39? Can't wait to find my $1750CDN Servo...

 

[j_garcia]

That's good info, but numbers don't tell you how a sub sounds. I haven't heard the Servo15 with the lowest stuff, only music.

 

[dobyblue]

I haven't heard the Servo15 with the lowest stuff, only music.

One song that really digs deep down into the beyond 20Hz range is "River of Bass" by Underworld, from their first album.

If you want to hear how accurate it is and low with no loss of power (like with gain on sub at 4/10) then listen to this tune. It's amazing.

Other music I've used would be Happy Mondays' WFL from Hallelujah EP, Beatles "Within You Without You/Tomorrow Never Knows" from the 24/96 DVD-A version of Love, NIN's "The Ruiner" from the SACD version of Downward Spiral.

Nothing compares to that Underworld song though. It's got to be electronically down in the under 16Hz range and I wish I could measure it. If you're a member of Oink or something like that you should be able to find a copy. It's used on Amazon from $6.97
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000003RGL/ref=dp_olp_2/002-6354117-3392833

I knew that my obsession with the Servo was justified... thanks doby! Do you have those same figures for the 16-46 PC Plus too? Or is it pretty much the same as the 20-39? Can't wait to find my $1750CDN Servo...

Good luck finding it at that price!
I will say that every last week of December at Gibby's Audio Video in St. Catharines you can order one for CDN$1999 which is an awesome price. Well worth waiting 10 months for this sub in my opinion at that price.
The 16-46 isn't on there, but you can make a request to them. They can really only test the ones that people give them too, but they have tested a shiteload.
I was considering the Martin Logan Depth because I wanted a sub that's good for music, but when you look at the THD figures on that site it's very disappointing results.
While it's important to remember that these are only numbers, THD, power and depth will give you a good idea how you can expect your sub to perform. Placement, surroundings, etc. will be just as important. If you're wondering how solid your window installations are, the Servo will let you know.
When I watch stuff like The Incredibles or the backyard propane tank scene from Over The Hedge the Servo just makes me laugh my *** off at how deep and powerful it is.
There are lots of great subs out there that can't be knocked. I'm not a huge fan of the Ultrcube or Seismic series from Paradigm, but the Servo 15v2 and Sig Servo are pretty special pieces of equipment.

 

[Sheep]

What Dolbyblue ISN'T mentioning is that the SVS PB-12Plus/2 "measured" is an older model, that uses a different (and worse) driver then the current PB-12Plus/2. Also, the numbers are in the 25Hz tuning mode, and the output down low is limited. Lastly, you couldn't tell the difference between 5% THD and 20% THD at low frequencies, so it's a moot point altogether.

SheepStar

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Go get him Sheep...This is funny; numbers, prices, this one is better, that one is better...

Like I said; get the one that fits your price range, plug it in, tune it up and get ready to smile. I prefer to buy my stuff locally because I am willing to spend more money to get it right then and be able to take it right back if a problems comes along. A great local dealer makes all the difference in the world to me. The dealer I purchased my equipment from gave me his cell number and home number and has even dropped by once to check out everything. This is worth extra money to me. You are going to love any of the ones you are looking at; just get one and dont wait for 9 months for something to go on sale.

By the way; I watched U 571 for the first time this weekend. I have never heard bass like that. It was so deep that it kind-of made me feel confused. It was actaully doing something physically to me...WOW...

I also watched Lord of the Rings(2nd one) and when that big tree started walking and stomping it was out of this world!

I LOVE my set-up.

 

[dobyblue]

What Dolbyblue ISN'T mentioning is that the SVS PB-12Plus/2 "measured" is an older model, that uses a different (and worse) driver then the current PB-12Plus/2. Also, the numbers are in the 25Hz tuning mode, and the output down low is limited. Lastly, you couldn't tell the difference between 5% THD and 20% THD at low frequencies, so it's a moot point altogether.

SheepStar

Actually Shleep the links are all there for anyone to click on and see what they're using. Results posted there are NOT in the 25Hz tuning mode, but the 20Hz tuning mode AND 12Hz tuning mode. That much is evident in the numbers themselves. Even with the 12Hz tuning mode the THD and output are not even close to the Servo.

Most of the SVS tests were done in late 2005, several months after the Paradigm test was done. There have been no changes to the amplifier, only to the driver itself. It's still a 900W BASH. The 12.2 woofer was used in all subs until early 2006. It has now been replaced with the 12.3 woofer. Can you provide details of exactly how that affects the output? Here's what SVS has to say.

It wasn't easy, or cheap, but our development team came up with a clean sheet of paper design that looks better, works better, and is more durable than the last Plus woofer. Looking close, you'll see little touches like elegant black anodized finish that helps dissipate heat, evidence of special spider tooling which keeps that critical part aligned, with much more. This is a woofer that'll keep its composure in anything from subtle, to extreme use. Even less obvious, state of the art adhesives are expertly used in small batch building runs to maintain quality unlike anything we've ever done. Rather than sub-contract this bread-and-butter component, all the custom design and assembly was done in-house, where production will continue. In a day when whole product lines, whole brands, are routinely sent to lowest cost bidders overseas, your Plus woofer once again bucks the trend.

I'm sold....not. Yes it's a better woofer, but to suggest that the results will be startlingly different from the AV Talk results is ridiculous.

Unless you have some other tests done by independant research there is nothing to suggest that the Servo 15v2 and Sig Servo are not better subs than anything up to the PB12-Ultra/2.

What's great about the AV tests, touted by most audiophiles, is that every test was done using identical set-ups, mics, source material and cables.

 

[dobyblue]

By the way; I watched U 571 for the first time this weekend. I have never heard bass like that. It was so deep that it kind-of made me feel confused. It was actaully doing something physically to me...WOW...

It is awesome, the 754 Kbps DTS track on that movie is wonderful.

I look forward to being able to pick this up region free sometime in the future from Studio Canal on Blu-ray disc and taking it to the next level.

 

[j_garcia]

Region free huh? I migh have to look into that....

 

[dobyblue]

Yeah the Studio Canal Blu-ray releases should all be region free. In fact only Fox and Disney are using region coding on BLu-ray right now.
BVHE has a few of Universal's movies in Japan, like Cinderella Man, which is Region A just like North America so you can also get those too, all with 5.1 English tracks.

In fact some are even better. Paramounts release of 16 Blocks here only has Dolby Digital on it on both Blu-ray and HD DVD, but if you order the Japanese version it has 5.1 PCM on it - huge difference.

This is a good site to see what you can get on Blu-ray that you can't in North America.

http://joshd2012.googlepages.com/

 

[j_garcia]

Holy smokes, I've been looking for Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, but $77 is insane.... Thanks for the tip though.

 

[Sheep]

Actually Shleep the links are all there for anyone to click on and see what they're using. Results posted there are NOT in the 25Hz tuning mode, but the 20Hz tuning mode AND 12Hz tuning mode. That much is evident in the numbers themselves. Even with the 12Hz tuning mode the THD and output are not even close to the Servo.

Most of the SVS tests were done in late 2005, several months after the Paradigm test was done. There have been no changes to the amplifier, only to the driver itself. It's still a 900W BASH. The 12.2 woofer was used in all subs until early 2006. It has now been replaced with the 12.3 woofer. Can you provide details of exactly how that affects the output?

The New Plus driver is pretty much as good as the Ultra driver (now discontinued). That's manly why the Ultra is being revised right now.

The THD numbers you keep quoting are for the most part inaudible. The human ear isn't that sensitive to low frequencies and a 15% increase in THD will go unnoticed.

SheepStar

 

[dobyblue]

Holy smokes, I've been looking for Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, but $77 is insane.... Thanks for the tip though.

No doubt it's pricey.

What made my eyes open up even more though for GITS2 was 7.1 Uncompressed LPCM audio.

 

[j_garcia]

The THD numbers you keep quoting are for the most part inaudible. The human ear isn't that sensitive to low frequencies and a 15% increase in THD will go unnoticed.

I have to agree with Sheep on this one. While a lower THD may have some effect, it isn't going to be so noticeable at those frequencies.

No doubt it's pricey.

What made my eyes open up even more though for GITS2 was 7.1 Uncompressed LPCM audio.

** sorry for going off topic ** Even though I am waiting for Marantz' new HDMI receivers later this year so I can hear these LPCM tracks, the 7.1 LPCM track is one of the reasons why I want that disc The sound quality on both the original and especially the new one on SD DVD is already near jaw dropping for animated films (most of their big releases have great sound). On the extras for the first movie they interviewed the entire staff and one of the sound engineers commented something to the effect of "It is not just my job to make it sound right, it is my personal responsibility to put out the very best sound that I am able to" I was impressed with that level of commitment. A review also said this disc has the highest bitrate video seen on any BD yet....

 

[dobyblue]

The only sub I would rate as good as the Servo 15v2 from SVS is the Ultra/2, which is a mean, mean sub. 190lbs for crying out loud.
Anything else from SVS is topped by the Servo-15v2 or the Velodyne DD-15.
At the end of the Ultra/2 review here they give it the nod over the Seismic 12, which is no surprise. If it were against the Servo 15v2 it would have been a different ballgame. The Seismic 12 is no contest against the Servo.
I'll take the sealed servo controlled sub over the ported anyday with the kind of power the Servo has. I've never seen another woofer like it and just feeling it with your hands is quite an experience. It just screams "I can knock you over little man."
Ha ha.
Servo 15v2 - http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/paradigm_servo_15_v2.htm
PB12 Ultra/2 - http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/svs_pb12_ultra2.htm

** sorry for going off topic ** Even though I am waiting for Marantz' new HDMI receivers later this year so I can hear these LPCM tracks, the 7.1 LPCM track is one of the reasons why I want that disc The sound quality on both the original and especially the new one on SD DVD is already near jaw dropping for animated films (most of their big releases have great sound). On the extras for the first movie they interviewed the entire staff and one of the sound engineers commented something to the effect of "It is not just my job to make it sound right, it is my personal responsibility to put out the very best sound that I am able to" I was impressed with that level of commitment. A review also said this disc has the highest bitrate video seen on any BD yet....

This thread has slowed down anyway.
The DTS:ES track is amazing in its own right you're correct.
The Blu-ray should be stunning.
The video bitrate is 38.87 Mbps, which is more than the total ceiling for HD DVD altogether.
Couple that with the 6144 Kbps 7.1 PCM track and I have no doubt it's a very visceral experience.

 

[BabelFish]

Without knowing all the specs this might be hard but how do you think the Servo15 will compare to the new Ultra13?

 

[dobyblue]

I think the Servo 15v2 will not let anyone down in power, depth, precision and overall performance.
I have no idea how it will stack up to the Ultra 13 but I have no doubt it will not be embarrassed by it. The Servo is still 15", the 13 is 13"; the Servo is a sealed, servo-controlled sub and as such is very fast and accurate.
Maybe someone will be kind enough to lend an Ultra 13 when it comes out to AV Talk and they can run the same subwoofer tests on it.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Servo has better overall results under 60Hz and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the SVS either.
Regardless of which you choose you're getting a mother sub that will be the envy of over 99% of people that visit you; you're good to go and enjoy music and HT the way it was meant to be enjoyed.