Novice Question.

[Gio-G]

I made some additional adjustments and moved the speakers another 4" apart. The S7Ts are now at the limit of what I can do with their placement apart from one another. The speakers now sit 8' 6" apart when measured from the center of the drivers.
I have a 1/2" toe-in which puts the outside rear edge of each speaker 7 1/2" away from the front wall, and the inside rear edges 7" away.

It made a slight improvement is bass response, and I'm wondering if they (speakers) are getting a little help from the side walls in addition to the front wall because they're in closer proximity to the sides now? The outside rear corners of each speaker sit 4' 1" from the side walls which seems like an acceptable distance.

I also moved my listening chair an inch forward. Again, this is a limitation and I won't be able to adjust anything further. Measured from my hip area while seated, I sit 8' 6" away. Since the chair is able to recline, my head may be an additional few inches further away but it seems to be a very good sweet spot.

Things sound pretty damn good, I'd say great. I could likely live without the subs, but the curiosity will remain.

This is where I'm at.

Please refrain from the "oooooooooohhs and aaaaaaaaaaaawws" as this magnificent change in proxemics looks exactly the same as every other photo I have posted here.

I'd be curious to hear what somebody with a similar setup gained or maybe didn't gain by adding a couple of subs.

I think the only way I can decide on subs VS no subs at this stage is to audition a pair that are properly integrated into the room.

As I found with the NHTs, the actual source recording makes a huge difference.

I'm switching over to classical music today to hear how it all sounds.

That is my babbling post of the day to extend this thread for the sake of conversation.

Cheers!

 

[ski2xblack]

I just perused James' review of the S7T, paying close attention to the bass measurements and some of the design choices Perlisten went with. You should too, as I think it may address your questions.

Measurements of what they're doing in your room would be elucidating, but we can make a few guesses as to what's going on in your room.

Note the shallow, very gradual 1st order-ish roll-off below 100hz. As James noted in his review, this was intentional, as such an anechoic response tends to play well once the speaker gets plopped within a room, as they'll get some boundary and/or pressure vessel gain.

Also note the port tuning (the saddle in the impedance graph) which is way down in the mid 20hz area. Ported speakers don't get much in the way of boundary or cabin gain below port tuning, but they can fully capitalize on it above port tuning. The port tuning being so low gives you everything above the low 20's to play with, as far as boundary/cabin gain goes. You can eq freq above port resonance too.

So the S7T seems to be a kinda sorta overdamped low-tuned reflex approach, one that's essentially full range. It's a recipe for tight, dry, highly resolving and realistic bass. Speakers with more flat and deep anechoic response can sound too thick, too phat, and less resolving and realistic, once the room gets it's ugly mitts on things. Perlisten made excellent design choices here.

I think those S7T would be right up TLS' alley, guessing by the sort of bass he prefers as expressed here. I hope he's able to drop in on you. He can directly answer your questions, and might find another commercial speaker he actually likes. (He did give a thumbs up to fellow Minnesotan Squishman's KEFs, which also have a shelved down deep bass response, but Perlisten did it better.)

Your room is fairly large, so I can't imagine you get much if any cabin gain, but you will get boundary gain. Closer proximity to walls and corners will boost lower frequencies. That's what you're hearing, and as you have experienced first hand, placement can be a powerful (and free!) calibration tool.

I'm less convinced now that you *need* subs. I would give a qualified "Maybe", to address modal smoothing or get more spl perhaps. Neither of those needs are demonstrated.

 

[Gio-G]

I just perused James' review of the S7T, paying close attention to the bass measurements and some of the design choices Perlisten went with. You should too, as I think it may address your questions.

Measurements of what they're doing in your room would be elucidating, but we can make a few guesses as to what's going on in your room.

Note the shallow, very gradual 1st order-ish roll-off below 100hz. As James noted in his review, this was intentional, as such an anechoic response tends to play well once the speaker gets plopped within a room, as they'll get some boundary and/or pressure vessel gain.

Also note the port tuning (the saddle in the impedance graph) which is way down in the mid 20hz area. Ported speakers don't get much in the way of boundary or cabin gain below port tuning, but they can fully capitalize on it above port tuning. The port tuning being so low gives you everything above the low 20's to play with, as far as boundary/cabin gain goes. You can eq freq above port resonance too.

So the S7T seems to be a kinda sorta overdamped low-tuned reflex approach, one that's essentially full range. It's a recipe for tight, dry, highly resolving and realistic bass. Speakers with more flat and deep anechoic response can sound too thick, too phat, and less resolving and realistic, once the room gets it's ugly mitts on things. Perlisten made excellent design choices here.

I think those S7T would be right up TLS' alley, guessing by the sort of bass he prefers as expressed here. I hope he's able to drop in on you. He can directly answer your questions, and might find another commercial speaker he actually likes. (He did give a thumbs up to fellow Minnesotan Squishman's KEFs, which also have a shelved down deep bass response, but Perlisten did it better.)

Your room is fairly large, so I can't imagine you get much if any cabin gain, but you will get boundary gain. Closer proximity to walls and corners will boost lower frequencies. That's what you're hearing, and as you have experienced first hand, placement can be a powerful (and free!) calibration tool.

I'm less convinced now that you *need* subs. I would give a qualified "Maybe", to address modal smoothing or get more spl perhaps. Neither of those needs are demonstrated.

Thank you sir! (Assuming you are a sir). I am happy to say I had a wonderful conversation the other day with TLS!

The knowledge, experience and passion he has for audio is more than impressive to a fella like I.

I also appreciate your willingness to pop in here with your thoughts. I have read that review and while I didn't fully understand the most technical aspects, I did gather placement options with these are a lot more forgiving than other quality speakers.

I'm going out on a limb, but if you are US based, you are in Colorado judging by your handle? The 2XBlack says experienced ski buff.

I have a question for you based on the comments you made.

Do you think I'd benefit more if I backed the speakers in another inch or two towards the front wall?

Eric from Perlisten saw one of the pictures I sent, and he thought moving them out would be a good idea. I'm guessing he's looking at soundstage depth improvement as the reason.

I've read, and maybe TLS told me, that (soundstage) is more recording dependent than speaker placement dependent.

I could easily (it is not all that fun) slide/walk the speakers back an inch or two toward the front wall and probably get a bit more room gain in the bass. Apparently there are some really nice benefits and a few negatives in doing so.

I should also reiterate that things sound VERY good, actually great here, I just think there's perhaps a little extra depth I could gain with subs.

It is an unknown, and now that I think about it, maybe it isn't neutral to have more bass, or what the original recordings are to really sound like.
I could be a fan of overly accentuated bass? The NHTs were 2" from the front wall.

If that's the case (accentuated bass lover) I can quickly get over that.

I suppose without measurements, which TLS is capable of doing I'll not know.

After our conversation, I felt like I'd watched a BBC program on the dawn of HIFI.

He's a wonderful person to chat with live.

Quick edit:

It's not going to happen, but had I purchased the Black Edition version of these, the low end response would be even better. But we could be looking at dishing returns when it comes to price point.

I've even seen reviews and watched videos stating the 1/2 the price R7Ts are almost right there with the S7Ts.

 

[ski2xblack]

Just looked at what I could dig up on your old NHT 3.3. Their bass was one of their fortes, and while it's a but of an apples to oranges comparison using old Stereophile graphs to Jame's ground plane bass measurements, it still appears that they're more lumpy than the Perlistens.

I'd bet that in situ, in your room, the Perlistens are capable of getting just as deep (may need a slight goosing of the bass knob to feel like it), with less wooliness everywhere else. The NHT had a big dip at 110hz, strong/flat response from 100 down to 40, and a second order roll off below 40. That relatively strong output at 40 is the sort of thing that could potentially load up too much in-room. Maybe.

The Perlistens might *seem* to have less prominent bass than the NHTs because of that. But it's probably better quality bass. Curious about your thoughts since you have both speakers.

 

[j_garcia]

1-2" might not make much difference. They "look" like they are in the roughly the place I would start for placement in that room. Where is MLP? Is it where you took the pic from? How far is that from the speakers? Looks like about 12+ ft. I would experiment with a bit of toe in vs. moving them closer or farther from the wall. The NHTs IIRC have a bit of toe built into the baffles. Try a few degrees in, so they "cross" behind the main listening position. Can you move the listening position as well? That can often make a bigger difference that moving the speakers a few inches. Maybe some baffles on the wall directly behind, on either side of the fireplace?

Plus, I'd live with them for some time, make a small adjustment, live with them for some time. You'll arrive at the right sound soon enough. When they completely disappear, that's when you know you've got it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Been thinking about this some more, and had some additional ideas for you to chew on, inspired by the lack of proper bass management in your front end and limits on what you can tweak because of that.

The first thing that came to mind are potential risks to your speakers from high spl playback of bass heavy content. Your Perlisten mains are a ported design. I'm not sure how much you know about how the hole in a box works, but briefly, below port tuning the drivers and ports will go increasingly out of phase and decouple from each other. Of specific relevance to you, if you allow your Perlistens to run full range and the source contains frequencies below the speaker's port resonance it will result in excessive cone motion but no additional output, which will wildly increase IM distortion (that cone motion will modulate all higher frequencies that the woofers also produce) and risk damage to the drivers by exceeding mechanical limits. Now, as I alluded to upthread, this probably only matters if you're really cranking it. But it is the nature of the beast with reflex loaded speakers. The easy and inexpensive solution would be to use a line level hpf between your preamp and the amps driving the Perlistens, creating a protective "rumble filter" but otherwise allowing the Perlistens to dig as deep as they can. An outfit called Harrison Labs sells them, they're called "F-mods", and they come in a variety of different values (to effect different hpf cutoff frequencies) and in both rca and balanced flavors. The cutoff freq are a function of the f-mod values and the input impedance of your amp. The appropriate value f-mods would allow your Perlistens to run down to their native roll-off, and reduce potentially harmful frequencies below that. F-mods do exactly what they claim to, and add zero noise or distortion, as confirmed by Amir over at ASR. They cost about $30. Cheap insurance for your kick ass Perlistens.

Next topic, the subs. Few subs these days cater to us luddites with two channel rigs trying to add some subwoofage. The Arendals you're looking at are feature laden, but they lack any sort of hpf on their line level outputs, they're just pass-through (thus the suggestion for the f-mods). Many subs, including the Arendals, have built in dsp, which cause a teeny, tiny bit of latency. Your upstream kit lacks the ability to compensate for that. Now, that latency may or may not be an issue. If it is, it will make blending the subs more challenging. Solution? Place the Arendal or similar subs closer to the mlp. That may not be an option though. Alternate solution: consider subs that don't have dsp, e.g. Hsu subs, that don't exhibit the latency of dsp equipped subs. Such subs could be placed more in line with your intended placement (diagonally, or otherwise out on the periphery of the room). Along with placement considerations, it would involve a trade off between easier integration on the one hand, and potentially beneficial features that dsp offers such as PEQ on the other.

I mention that second point based on my own recent experience replacing subs in a retro two channel rig essentially similar to yours.

They are capable speakers and will run full range just fine. It will be no problem to supplement them with a sub or two. We ran speakers full range for years and years before subs. Actually you can frequently integrate subs better leaving the mains full range.

 

[Gio-G]

Just looked at what I could dig up on your old NHT 3.3. Their bass was one of their fortes, and while it's a but of an apples to oranges comparison using old Stereophile graphs to Jame's ground plane bass measurements, it still appears that they're more lumpy than the Perlistens.

I'd bet that in situ, in your room, the Perlistens are capable of getting just as deep (may need a slight goosing of the bass knob to feel like it), with less wooliness everywhere else. The NHT had a big dip at 110hz, strong/flat response from 100 down to 40, and a second order roll off below 40. That relatively strong output at 40 is the sort of thing that could potentially load up too much in-room. Maybe.

The Perlistens might *seem* to have less prominent bass than the NHTs because of that. But it's probably better quality bass. Curious about your thoughts since you have both speakers.

OK, I was wondering about this (your bold text). BTW, I did edit my earlier post in the event you didn't see it.

One thing, I always think about is how do I, even know what things are supposed to sound like in the first place? I assume without measurements, I'm just going by my completely subjective preferences that are based on absolutely nothing at all?

Luckily, my first system, which I still somewhat have (just changing amps for the same, but newest models) measured well according to reviews on the Bryston gear. The "audiophiles" would dismiss the equipment as too analytical. I was fortunate to basically fall into studio type gear that was not considered warm or "musical" but actually accurate which I think is probably a benefit.

I may move the speakers one more time, just an inch, maybe two toward the front wall. I'm still evaluating things from my earlier placement adjustment today and I like what my almost 60 year old diminished hearing is registering.

I'm also learning here and have fun with the responses and suggestions.

I suppose that's the whole point of forums like these.

Also, thanks to everyone for not ripping on me. I just don't have this skillset but I sure do enjoy hearing from people that do.

 

[ski2xblack]

Re placement, sure, play with it.

The NHTs were by design intended to be smushed up against the wall, for boundary gain and in-room extension. The Perlistens give you more wiggle room in that regard.

Getting them further apart should be beneficial for imaging, so that was a good idea. Image/soundstage does come from the recording, but your speaker positioning can alter it. If your speakers are in closer proximity to walls it will change the amount of room influence. Think about the ratio of direct to reflected sound. More direct sound can be had by moving your seat closer, as you tried. Greater distances puts you more in the reverberant field, with a greater degree of reflected sound reaching your ears. Placing speakers closer to walls necessarily results in stronger reflections as well.

Fortunately, the Perlisten's polar and overall power response makes them very room friendly. The reflected sound closely follows the direct sound, making reflected sound benign, not deleterious to imaging. Caveat: more direct to reflected sound can give pinpoint imaging, where more reflected sound can provide a greater sense of immersion at the expense of pinpoint image specificity.

You're lucky. Your Perlistens lend themselves equally well to near field listening and far field. You get the best of both worlds, so explore them both.

 

[Gio-G]

1-2" might now make much difference. They "look" like they are in the roughly the place I would start for placement in that room. Where is MLP? Is it where you took the pic from? How far is that from the speakers? Looks like about 12+ ft. I would experiment with a bit of toe in vs. moving them closer or farther from the wall. The NHTs IIRC have a bit of toe built into the baffles. Try a few degrees in, so they "cross" behind the main listening position. Can you move the listening position as well? That can often make a bigger difference that moving the speakers a few inches. Maybe some baffles on the wall directly behind, on either side of the fireplace?

Plus, I'd live with them for some time, make a small adjustment, live with them for some time. You'll arrive at the right sound soon enough. When they completely disappear, that's when you know you've got it.

Hello, I think I covered a few of your questions earlier when I gave the measurements. My distance away and such. I'm in almost the perfect listening triangle. My measurement from a seated position from the hips is about 9' away from the front of the speakers.

Apologies, I don't know what "MLP" means. ------ Listening Position?

I won't be moving the couch further into the room so that ship sailed. My only options now are the move closer to the front wall. Do you know if soundstage depth is extremely dependent on where the speakers are in regards to the front wall? The increased space between the speakers was a noticeable improvement today.

The room is 17' 6" to the early side walls and dips to 18' 6" for the bay window cutout. Front wall to back wall is 13' 6" and the fireplace protrudes 7" into the room from the front wall.

Rear wall. My spot is on the left in the picture by the lamp. I sometimes put a couch pillow behind my head since I'm close to the wall but my ears are below the top of the couch too.

The NHTs were here.

I should clarify that I am nit picking here. I don't have any major problems. I "feel" that maybe I could enjoy more bass but I could also be accustomed to overly bloated bass from the NHTs.

I'm posting this while other answers are coming in so forgive me if this post is behind the curve.

 

[ski2xblack]

One thing, I always think about is how do I, even know what things are supposed to sound like in the first place? I assume without measurements, I'm just going by my completely subjective preferences that are based on absolutely nothing at all?

A very good question.

Yes, measurements can be very helpful in determining how your system performs. But let's take a step back for a second.

The best reference baseline is probably live, unamplified music. It's no coincidence that some of the most respected speaker designers are also concert musicians. Dennis Murphy comes to mind. TLS too, as he has extensive live recording experience under his belt.

Your question also concerns what Toole and Olive referred to as the "circle of confusion", pertaining to everything from when the mics pick up the original performance to the end product, the recordings we buy. There is a lot involved in how the sausage is made, but not much in the way of objectively determining what the sausage maker had in mind, or if your rig can do it justice. (Don't sweat it-your rig is reference grade.)

 

[Gio-G]

A very good question.

Yes, measurements can be very helpful in determining how your system performs. But let's take a step back for a second.

The best reference baseline is probably live, unamplified music. It's no coincidence that some of the most respected speaker designers are also concert musicians. Dennis Murphy comes to mind. TLS too, as he has extensive live recording experience under his belt.

Your question also concerns what Toole and Olive referred to as the "circle of confusion", pertaining to everything from when the mics pick up the original performance to the end product, the recordings we buy. There is a lot involved in how the sausage is made, but not much in the way of objectively determining what the sausage maker had in mind, or if your rig can do it justice. (Don't sweat it-your rig is reference grade.)

Very good answer!

This really is a phenomenal learning experience and discussion IMO. On my end at least.

I was pretty well set and quite happy with everything from 1999. I started on these boards (this one and ASR) because I always suspected cables were a ridiculous, over rated and over priced piece of the puzzle. That led to more reading and more talk about measurements, which I admittedly know little about. At the same time it all made sense to me.

The changes to my system were mostly based on my own worry that things would fail after 30 years. My preamp had a power supply issue and Bryston offered an incredible trade in and up incentive so I did it and was very happy. One of my mono amps is buzzing, and they are going to do the same trade-in with those which is more than I could sell them for if you can believe that.

That was going to be the end of it until I started reading more and learning about speakers. I was looking into passive speakers that measured well and were favorably reviewed. As I understand it, active speakers have some real advantages but I never wanted to completely abandon my beloved system. I couldn't even trade the NHTs in for sentimental reasons as ridiculous as that may sound.

I had not really anticipated buying these as I loved the NHTs. I wanted to audition the Perlisten R7Ts thinking I could buy them and add subs for the price of the S7Ts. IF I was decided to get serious.

I went into the store just to snoop around and the rep I spoke with told me they had this demo pair (S7Ts) that were only unboxed for a little under a year and were used around 7-8 times for auditions and used a few times for "vinyl night". He pointed over and told me "they just sit here". The store doesn't like to have demos sitting more than a year so they like to move them out. I also had my eye on the KEF Blades.

The manufacture date on my speakers was 2023, but I didn't care. The offer I got was too good to pass up and 2023 in boxes to 2026 is not an issue IMO. Our Jeep was a 2024 and brand new but we bought it in 2025. I adore it.

I'm completely off topic, but that's how I wound up here, and knowing more and getting real advice has proven to be fun and I have certainly improved my system.

Added bonus TLS and Squishmen are not far from where I reside.

 

[j_garcia]

Hello, I think I covered a few of your questions earlier when I gave the measurements. My distance away and such. I'm in almost the perfect listening triangle. My measurement from a seated position from the hips is about 9' away from the front of the speakers.

Apologies, I don't know what "MLP" means. ------ Listening Position?

I won't be moving the couch further into the room so that ship sailed. My only options now are the move closer to the front wall. Do you know if soundstage depth is extremely dependent on where the speakers are in regards to the front wall? The increased space between the speakers was a noticeable improvement today.

The room is 17' 6" to the early side walls and dips to 18' 6" for the bay window cutout. Front wall to back wall is 13' 6" and the fireplace protrudes 7" into the room from the front wall.

Rear wall. My spot is on the left in the picture by the lamp. I sometimes put a couch pillow behind my head since I'm close to the wall but my ears are below the top of the couch too.

The NHTs were here.

I should clarify that I am nit picking here. I don't have any major problems. I "feel" that maybe I could enjoy more bass but I could also be accustomed to overly bloated bass from the NHTs.

I'm posting this while other answers are coming in so forgive me if this post is behind the curve.

Yes, MLP is "main listening position" AKA the sweet spot. Since you can't move the seating, I'd just continue with speaker positioning. Try moving them both closer and a little further to see how it changes the sound, just for sh*ts & giggles. The positioning is very much room dependent, so experimenting can give you something you didn't expect from where you "thought" they should go, which is what most people do. People tend to place them where they "look right" but that does not mean it is where they sound the best. Ultimately it also comes down to your preference of how they sound.

The first reflections on the sides are sort of handled by the shades and seating, so you should be OK there. Ceiling is angled, so it may help instead of hurt, but panels up there might help with some sound diffusion, though the room does not look like what most would call "live" or too much reflection. So room treatments are something you can think about down the road after you've lived with them for some time.

You already noted a big factor. You were used to the NHTs. Give these some time to settle in, or rather, time for you to settle in to them.

 

[Gio-G]

Happy Friday gentlemen and ladies if you are part of this.

I have been experimenting, and have found I have nice bass response, and these speakers are nothing short of incredible.

I have a modified question that maybe some knowledgable members can answer or explain.

The good bass response I am getting comes with an increase in volume. If I rack the volume up, obviously everything gets louder but the bass not only gets louder, the room pressure and deep "feel, thud/slam" increases.

I'm not surprised by this but at the same time, I don't really want to listen at higher levels. I do like to let it rip now and then but I'm wondering if there is a way to get that pressurized feeling at lower levels?

Would adding subs bring another dimension and improve upon what I currently have during low level listening or would they require the same higher volume levels? Lately I have been trying to turn things down.

I wonder if this is where my hangup is and thinking back, the same probably held true with the NHT 3.3s that I used.

The NHTs, more so than the Perlisten S7Ts needed some juice to get them to actually fill out and respond.

Would it be considered "artificial" to have a little enhanced bass thud at low listening levels?

I don't want anything but true, well measured sound if that makes sense.

If getting that thud/punch when the volume is down is considered overly inflated bass, I guess I'd not be interested as it would take away from good measurements.

I do understand that a speaker needs some juice to be driven and that is acceptable, actually unavoidable I suppose but I'm wondering if it is possible to "fill out" the bass at lower volumes without ruining the true sound. Apologies, I am not sure how to ask the question in any other way.

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

[ski2xblack]

Hearing is less sensitive to frequency extremes at lower volume. Loudness eq would give you what you're looking for. If your preamp doesn't have that, it has tone controls, right? Use 'em.

 

[Nondemo01]

Happy Friday gentlemen and ladies if you are part of this.

I have been experimenting, and have found I have nice bass response, and these speakers are nothing short of incredible.

I have a modified question that maybe some knowledgable members can answer or explain.

The good bass response I am getting comes with an increase in volume. If I rack the volume up, obviously everything gets louder but the bass not only gets louder, the room pressure and deep "feel, thud/slam" increases.

I'm not surprised by this but at the same time, I don't really want to listen at higher levels. I do like to let it rip now and then but I'm wondering if there is a way to get that pressurized feeling at lower levels?

Would adding subs bring another dimension and improve upon what I currently have during low level listening or would they require the same higher volume levels? Lately I have been trying to turn things down.

I wonder if this is where my hangup is and thinking back, the same probably held true with the NHT 3.3s that I used.

The NHTs, more so than the Perlisten S7Ts needed some juice to get them to actually fill out and respond.

Would it be considered "artificial" to have a little enhanced bass thud at low listening levels?

I don't want anything but true, well measured sound if that makes sense.

If getting that thud/punch when the volume is down is considered overly inflated bass, I guess I'd not be interested as it would take away from good measurements.

I do understand that a speaker needs some juice to be driven and that is acceptable, actually unavoidable I suppose but I'm wondering if it is possible to "fill out" the bass at lower volumes without ruining the true sound. Apologies, I am not sure how to ask the question in any other way.

Hopefully this makes sense.

I think the important distinction here is that adding subs probably isn’t the answer to the specific thing you’re describing. The S7ts already have substantial low-frequency capability. What you’re noticing is primarily the relationship between SPL, human hearing, and the amount of acoustic energy required to physically pressurize the room.

At lower listening levels, our hearing becomes progressively less sensitive to bass relative to the midrange. That’s essentially what the equal-loudness contours show. So if you turn the entire system down 10 - 15 dB, the bass doesn’t just seem 10 -15 dB quieter; it becomes perceptually less prominent relative to the mids. At the same time, the physical sensation of bass (the pressure, impact, chest hit, couch movement, etc.) is directly related to actual sound pressure. There really isn’t a way to have 100 dB worth of physical pressure while the room is only seeing 75 dB.

That also explains why everything seems to “come alive” when you turn it up. I don’t think the S7ts suddenly start working better because they’re getting more power. A well-designed speaker like the S7t should remain very linear at modest levels. What changes dramatically is you and the SPL in the room.

Subs can certainly help, particularly below the S7t’s strongest operating range, and multiple subs can greatly improve seat-to-seat consistency and room response. But if you cross them over properly and maintain a flat acoustic response, turning the system down will still result in the same perceptual issue. The subs will get quieter too.

Where subs can help with low-volume listening is if you intentionally run the bass somewhat elevated as the master volume comes down. That isn’t necessarily “bad” or inaccurate. In fact, this is basically the rationale behind traditional loudness compensation and modern implementations such as Dynamic EQ: as playback level decreases, bass is progressively increased to compensate for the changing sensitivity of human hearing.

So I’d distinguish between electrically flat and perceptually flat.

If you measure the system flat at reference level and then listen 20 dB below that level, leaving everything completely unchanged may actually sound tonally lean because your hearing is no longer responding equally to those frequencies. Adding a few dB of low-frequency compensation at low playback levels can make the perceived tonal balance closer to what you hear at higher levels.

That’s not the same thing as arbitrarily cranking the subs +10 or +15 dB and calling it accurate.

The one thing EQ cannot completely duplicate is the physical sensation you’re talking about. The “thud,” pressure and visceral component require displacement and SPL. You can make bass more audible at low volume, but you cannot entirely separate tactile impact from acoustic energy.

If the goal is physical sensation without substantially increasing room SPL, that’s where nearfield subs or tactile transducers become interesting. They can give you substantially more physical feedback without requiring the whole room to reach the SPL necessary to create the same sensation conventionally.

So my take would be:

The S7ts probably aren’t “needing juice” before their bass starts working. You’re hearing the effects of lower SPL on both human bass perception and physical room pressurization. Adding subs could improve extension, modal behavior and headroom, but simply adding subs and calibrating everything flat won’t eliminate that phenomenon.

For lower-volume listening, a modest volume-dependent bass shelf/loudness compensation is arguably the technically correct solution - not a corruption of accurate reproduction. You’re compensating for the nonlinear behavior of human hearing rather than a deficiency in the loudspeaker.

And if what you really want is the physical punch of high-SPL bass while keeping the actual listening level down, that’s a different problem entirely. Physics eventually wins that argument.

Lastly, I'd add: welcome to being an audiophile! Your system may never sound "perfect". I've been on the road to perfection for over 40 years. What I realized in all that time is that the journey is much, much more fun than the destination. (and MORE expensive!)

 

[Gio-G]

I think the important distinction here is that adding subs probably isn’t the answer to the specific thing you’re describing. The S7ts already have substantial low-frequency capability. What you’re noticing is primarily the relationship between SPL, human hearing, and the amount of acoustic energy required to physically pressurize the room.

At lower listening levels, our hearing becomes progressively less sensitive to bass relative to the midrange. That’s essentially what the equal-loudness contours show. So if you turn the entire system down 10 - 15 dB, the bass doesn’t just seem 10 -15 dB quieter; it becomes perceptually less prominent relative to the mids. At the same time, the physical sensation of bass (the pressure, impact, chest hit, couch movement, etc.) is directly related to actual sound pressure. There really isn’t a way to have 100 dB worth of physical pressure while the room is only seeing 75 dB.

That also explains why everything seems to “come alive” when you turn it up. I don’t think the S7ts suddenly start working better because they’re getting more power. A well-designed speaker like the S7t should remain very linear at modest levels. What changes dramatically is you and the SPL in the room.

Subs can certainly help, particularly below the S7t’s strongest operating range, and multiple subs can greatly improve seat-to-seat consistency and room response. But if you cross them over properly and maintain a flat acoustic response, turning the system down will still result in the same perceptual issue. The subs will get quieter too.

Where subs can help with low-volume listening is if you intentionally run the bass somewhat elevated as the master volume comes down. That isn’t necessarily “bad” or inaccurate. In fact, this is basically the rationale behind traditional loudness compensation and modern implementations such as Dynamic EQ: as playback level decreases, bass is progressively increased to compensate for the changing sensitivity of human hearing.

So I’d distinguish between electrically flat and perceptually flat.

If you measure the system flat at reference level and then listen 20 dB below that level, leaving everything completely unchanged may actually sound tonally lean because your hearing is no longer responding equally to those frequencies. Adding a few dB of low-frequency compensation at low playback levels can make the perceived tonal balance closer to what you hear at higher levels.

That’s not the same thing as arbitrarily cranking the subs +10 or +15 dB and calling it accurate.

The one thing EQ cannot completely duplicate is the physical sensation you’re talking about. The “thud,” pressure and visceral component require displacement and SPL. You can make bass more audible at low volume, but you cannot entirely separate tactile impact from acoustic energy.

If the goal is physical sensation without substantially increasing room SPL, that’s where nearfield subs or tactile transducers become interesting. They can give you substantially more physical feedback without requiring the whole room to reach the SPL necessary to create the same sensation conventionally.

So my take would be:

The S7ts probably aren’t “needing juice” before their bass starts working. You’re hearing the effects of lower SPL on both human bass perception and physical room pressurization. Adding subs could improve extension, modal behavior and headroom, but simply adding subs and calibrating everything flat won’t eliminate that phenomenon.

For lower-volume listening, a modest volume-dependent bass shelf/loudness compensation is arguably the technically correct solution - not a corruption of accurate reproduction. You’re compensating for the nonlinear behavior of human hearing rather than a deficiency in the loudspeaker.

And if what you really want is the physical punch of high-SPL bass while keeping the actual listening level down, that’s a different problem entirely. Physics eventually wins that argument.

Lastly, I'd add: welcome to being an audiophile! Your system may never sound "perfect". I've been on the road to perfection for over 40 years. What I realized in all that time is that the journey is much, much more fun than the destination. (and MORE expensive!)

Thanks for your very detailed response.
I understood most of it which means I’m learning a think or two. All of that response made sense.

SkiBlack,
my Bryston BP-19 does not have tone controls so adjustments are out, but thanks for suggesting a potential tweak or solution.


I did rewatch Gene’s S7T S Revel shootout, and Gene seems to really like subs and uses them with his S7Ts.

My thought is that I’ll find that I like them as well.
The only way to find out Is to try them during an audition and at home in my room.

I don’t think I have any unanswered question remaining.

If I buy a couple subs, I will but I’m not there yet.

 

[ski2xblack]

my Bryston BP-19 does not have tone controls

That's a bummer. It's also a serious misstep by Bryston (and many -most?- manufacturers for that matter). Why do they eschew tone controls and loudness compensation eq? Historically, it was ubiquitous in two channel kit, for good reason if not always in implementation. Modern AV kit still has it. But modern two channel kit has dropped it, as though the nature of human hearing suddenly changed along the line somewhere. It hasn't. Nondemo described the phenomenon well. And it leaves you stuck with only tedious, klunky and potentially expensive solutions, just to get a more satisfying experience at low listening levels.

 

[Gio-G]

That's a bummer. It's also a serious misstep by Bryston (and many -most?- manufacturers for that matter). Why do they eschew tone controls and loudness compensation eq? Historically, it was ubiquitous in two channel kit, for good reason if not always in implementation. Modern AV kit still has it. But modern two channel kit has dropped it, as though the nature of human hearing suddenly changed along the line somewhere. It hasn't. Nondemo described the phenomenon well. And it leaves you stuck with only tedious, klunky and potentially expensive solutions, just to get a more satisfying experience at low listening levels.

I haven't had them for 30 years. The previous BP-25 was the same as is the BenchMark pre and quite a few others. I haven't really missed them I guess but I don't see why something simple like that was dropped. I actually don't remember many, if any preamps that were considered "high end" having them. Your bold highlighted statement above is exactly what I noticed all those years ago. I assumed they were going for a "straight wire with gain" kind of thing but what do I know?

Also just to clarify, I love my system and the sound. I'm really nitpicking and looking to potentially make one or two final improvements. Even at low listening levels, I hope I didn't give the impression that things were bad.
Bass seems to come up in every discussion when it comes to improving sound. I apparently am no different and the explanations above clarified a lot. Things I didn't consider or even know about came up and were explained quite well so, thank you.

I was very happy for 29 years with the previous gear and didn't have any issues until the previous pre-amp started having power supply problems. After upgrading to the newest model, I decided to look at the whole system and treat it like a well maintained vehicle that served me well but was starting to show the signs of age.

Peace of mind and performance improvements have come along with the new preamp and speakers. My amps are aged as well and they are getting swapped out for the new ones in about four weeks.

I've been very comfortable and satisfied with the gear, and the most bold move I made was changing the speakers. I really loved the NHTs and wasn't certain I'd part with them. (I still have them) but the deal on the Perlistens was too good to pass up and after 3-4 hours of auditioning them, I knew they would fit in here.

In 30 years I've had 6 brand new vehicles and only one audio system so I can't complain much. I have never been one to constantly buy, try and flip new gear. Some people seem to like that but I've not had any urge to change things.

The only thing I've never had in my system are subs. If they improve anything here at home, I don't think I'll have anything left to do honestly. The fact the Gene has the S7Ts and he advocates/likes subs leads me to believe I will too.

If so, that just gets me back to my original concern which is proper integration. I feel pretty good about having a few good men within 40 minutes of my home that are knowledgable and frequent this board.