Novice Question.

[Gio-G]

I made some additional adjustments and moved the speakers another 4" apart. The S7Ts are now at the limit of what I can do with their placement apart from one another. The speakers now sit 8' 6" apart when measured from the center of the drivers.
I have a 1/2" toe-in which puts the outside rear edge of each speaker 7 1/2" away from the front wall, and the inside rear edges 7" away.

It made a slight improvement is bass response, and I'm wondering if they (speakers) are getting a little help from the side walls in addition to the front wall because they're in closer proximity to the sides now? The outside rear corners of each speaker sit 4' 1" from the side walls which seems like an acceptable distance.

I also moved my listening chair an inch forward. Again, this is a limitation and I won't be able to adjust anything further. Measured from my hip area while seated, I sit 8' 6" away. Since the chair is able to recline, my head may be an additional few inches further away but it seems to be a very good sweet spot.

Things sound pretty damn good, I'd say great. I could likely live without the subs, but the curiosity will remain.

This is where I'm at.

Please refrain from the "oooooooooohhs and aaaaaaaaaaaawws" as this magnificent change in proxemics looks exactly the same as every other photo I have posted here.

I'd be curious to hear what somebody with a similar setup gained or maybe didn't gain by adding a couple of subs.

I think the only way I can decide on subs VS no subs at this stage is to audition a pair that are properly integrated into the room.

As I found with the NHTs, the actual source recording makes a huge difference.

I'm switching over to classical music today to hear how it all sounds.

That is my babbling post of the day to extend this thread for the sake of conversation.

Cheers!

 

[ski2xblack]

I just perused James' review of the S7T, paying close attention to the bass measurements and some of the design choices Perlisten went with. You should too, as I think it may address your questions.

Measurements of what they're doing in your room would be elucidating, but we can make a few guesses as to what's going on in your room.

Note the shallow, very gradual 1st order-ish roll-off below 100hz. As James noted in his review, this was intentional, as such an anechoic response tends to play well once the speaker gets plopped within a room, as they'll get some boundary and/or pressure vessel gain.

Also note the port tuning (the saddle in the impedance graph) which is way down in the mid 20hz area. Ported speakers don't get much in the way of boundary or cabin gain below port tuning, but they can fully capitalize on it above port tuning. The port tuning being so low gives you everything above the low 20's to play with, as far as boundary/cabin gain goes. You can eq freq above port resonance too.

So the S7T seems to be a kinda sorta overdamped low-tuned reflex approach, one that's essentially full range. It's a recipe for tight, dry, highly resolving and realistic bass. Speakers with more flat and deep anechoic response can sound too thick, too phat, and less resolving and realistic, once the room gets it's ugly mitts on things. Perlisten made excellent design choices here.

I think those S7T would be right up TLS' alley, guessing by the sort of bass he prefers as expressed here. I hope he's able to drop in on you. He can directly answer your questions, and might find another commercial speaker he actually likes. (He did give a thumbs up to fellow Minnesotan Squishman's KEFs, which also have a shelved down deep bass response, but Perlisten did it better.)

Your room is fairly large, so I can't imagine you get much if any cabin gain, but you will get boundary gain. Closer proximity to walls and corners will boost lower frequencies. That's what you're hearing, and as you have experienced first hand, placement can be a powerful (and free!) calibration tool.

I'm less convinced now that you *need* subs. I would give a qualified "Maybe", to address modal smoothing or get more spl perhaps. Neither of those needs are demonstrated.

 

[Gio-G]

I just perused James' review of the S7T, paying close attention to the bass measurements and some of the design choices Perlisten went with. You should too, as I think it may address your questions.

Measurements of what they're doing in your room would be elucidating, but we can make a few guesses as to what's going on in your room.

Note the shallow, very gradual 1st order-ish roll-off below 100hz. As James noted in his review, this was intentional, as such an anechoic response tends to play well once the speaker gets plopped within a room, as they'll get some boundary and/or pressure vessel gain.

Also note the port tuning (the saddle in the impedance graph) which is way down in the mid 20hz area. Ported speakers don't get much in the way of boundary or cabin gain below port tuning, but they can fully capitalize on it above port tuning. The port tuning being so low gives you everything above the low 20's to play with, as far as boundary/cabin gain goes. You can eq freq above port resonance too.

So the S7T seems to be a kinda sorta overdamped low-tuned reflex approach, one that's essentially full range. It's a recipe for tight, dry, highly resolving and realistic bass. Speakers with more flat and deep anechoic response can sound too thick, too phat, and less resolving and realistic, once the room gets it's ugly mitts on things. Perlisten made excellent design choices here.

I think those S7T would be right up TLS' alley, guessing by the sort of bass he prefers as expressed here. I hope he's able to drop in on you. He can directly answer your questions, and might find another commercial speaker he actually likes. (He did give a thumbs up to fellow Minnesotan Squishman's KEFs, which also have a shelved down deep bass response, but Perlisten did it better.)

Your room is fairly large, so I can't imagine you get much if any cabin gain, but you will get boundary gain. Closer proximity to walls and corners will boost lower frequencies. That's what you're hearing, and as you have experienced first hand, placement can be a powerful (and free!) calibration tool.

I'm less convinced now that you *need* subs. I would give a qualified "Maybe", to address modal smoothing or get more spl perhaps. Neither of those needs are demonstrated.

Thank you sir! (Assuming you are a sir). I am happy to say I had a wonderful conversation the other day with TLS!

The knowledge, experience and passion he has for audio is more than impressive to a fella like I.

I also appreciate your willingness to pop in here with your thoughts. I have read that review and while I didn't fully understand the most technical aspects, I did gather placement options with these are a lot more forgiving than other quality speakers.

I'm going out on a limb, but if you are US based, you are in Colorado judging by your handle? The 2XBlack says experienced ski buff.

I have a question for you based on the comments you made.

Do you think I'd benefit more if I backed the speakers in another inch or two towards the front wall?

Eric from Perlisten saw one of the pictures I sent, and he thought moving them out would be a good idea. I'm guessing he's looking at soundstage depth improvement as the reason.

I've read, and maybe TLS told me, that (soundstage) is more recording dependent than speaker placement dependent.

I could easily (it is not all that fun) slide/walk the speakers back an inch or two toward the front wall and probably get a bit more room gain in the bass. Apparently there are some really nice benefits and a few negatives in doing so.

I should also reiterate that things sound VERY good, actually great here, I just think there's perhaps a little extra depth I could gain with subs.

It is an unknown, and now that I think about it, maybe it isn't neutral to have more bass, or what the original recordings are to really sound like.
I could be a fan of overly accentuated bass? The NHTs were 2" from the front wall.

If that's the case (accentuated bass lover) I can quickly get over that.

I suppose without measurements, which TLS is capable of doing I'll not know.

After our conversation, I felt like I'd watched a BBC program on the dawn of HIFI.

He's a wonderful person to chat with live.

Quick edit:

It's not going to happen, but had I purchased the Black Edition version of these, the low end response would be even better. But we could be looking at dishing returns when it comes to price point.

I've even seen reviews and watched videos stating the 1/2 the price R7Ts are almost right there with the S7Ts.

 

[ski2xblack]

Just looked at what I could dig up on your old NHT 3.3. Their bass was one of their fortes, and while it's a but of an apples to oranges comparison using old Stereophile graphs to Jame's ground plane bass measurements, it still appears that they're more lumpy than the Perlistens.

I'd bet that in situ, in your room, the Perlistens are capable of getting just as deep (may need a slight goosing of the bass knob to feel like it), with less wooliness everywhere else. The NHT had a big dip at 110hz, strong/flat response from 100 down to 40, and a second order roll off below 40. That relatively strong output at 40 is the sort of thing that could potentially load up too much in-room. Maybe.

The Perlistens might *seem* to have less prominent bass than the NHTs because of that. But it's probably better quality bass. Curious about your thoughts since you have both speakers.

 

[j_garcia]

1-2" might not make much difference. They "look" like they are in the roughly the place I would start for placement in that room. Where is MLP? Is it where you took the pic from? How far is that from the speakers? Looks like about 12+ ft. I would experiment with a bit of toe in vs. moving them closer or farther from the wall. The NHTs IIRC have a bit of toe built into the baffles. Try a few degrees in, so they "cross" behind the main listening position. Can you move the listening position as well? That can often make a bigger difference that moving the speakers a few inches. Maybe some baffles on the wall directly behind, on either side of the fireplace?

Plus, I'd live with them for some time, make a small adjustment, live with them for some time. You'll arrive at the right sound soon enough. When they completely disappear, that's when you know you've got it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Been thinking about this some more, and had some additional ideas for you to chew on, inspired by the lack of proper bass management in your front end and limits on what you can tweak because of that.

The first thing that came to mind are potential risks to your speakers from high spl playback of bass heavy content. Your Perlisten mains are a ported design. I'm not sure how much you know about how the hole in a box works, but briefly, below port tuning the drivers and ports will go increasingly out of phase and decouple from each other. Of specific relevance to you, if you allow your Perlistens to run full range and the source contains frequencies below the speaker's port resonance it will result in excessive cone motion but no additional output, which will wildly increase IM distortion (that cone motion will modulate all higher frequencies that the woofers also produce) and risk damage to the drivers by exceeding mechanical limits. Now, as I alluded to upthread, this probably only matters if you're really cranking it. But it is the nature of the beast with reflex loaded speakers. The easy and inexpensive solution would be to use a line level hpf between your preamp and the amps driving the Perlistens, creating a protective "rumble filter" but otherwise allowing the Perlistens to dig as deep as they can. An outfit called Harrison Labs sells them, they're called "F-mods", and they come in a variety of different values (to effect different hpf cutoff frequencies) and in both rca and balanced flavors. The cutoff freq are a function of the f-mod values and the input impedance of your amp. The appropriate value f-mods would allow your Perlistens to run down to their native roll-off, and reduce potentially harmful frequencies below that. F-mods do exactly what they claim to, and add zero noise or distortion, as confirmed by Amir over at ASR. They cost about $30. Cheap insurance for your kick ass Perlistens.

Next topic, the subs. Few subs these days cater to us luddites with two channel rigs trying to add some subwoofage. The Arendals you're looking at are feature laden, but they lack any sort of hpf on their line level outputs, they're just pass-through (thus the suggestion for the f-mods). Many subs, including the Arendals, have built in dsp, which cause a teeny, tiny bit of latency. Your upstream kit lacks the ability to compensate for that. Now, that latency may or may not be an issue. If it is, it will make blending the subs more challenging. Solution? Place the Arendal or similar subs closer to the mlp. That may not be an option though. Alternate solution: consider subs that don't have dsp, e.g. Hsu subs, that don't exhibit the latency of dsp equipped subs. Such subs could be placed more in line with your intended placement (diagonally, or otherwise out on the periphery of the room). Along with placement considerations, it would involve a trade off between easier integration on the one hand, and potentially beneficial features that dsp offers such as PEQ on the other.

I mention that second point based on my own recent experience replacing subs in a retro two channel rig essentially similar to yours.

They are capable speakers and will run full range just fine. It will be no problem to supplement them with a sub or two. We ran speakers full range for years and years before subs. Actually you can frequently integrate subs better leaving the mains full range.

 

[Gio-G]

Just looked at what I could dig up on your old NHT 3.3. Their bass was one of their fortes, and while it's a but of an apples to oranges comparison using old Stereophile graphs to Jame's ground plane bass measurements, it still appears that they're more lumpy than the Perlistens.

I'd bet that in situ, in your room, the Perlistens are capable of getting just as deep (may need a slight goosing of the bass knob to feel like it), with less wooliness everywhere else. The NHT had a big dip at 110hz, strong/flat response from 100 down to 40, and a second order roll off below 40. That relatively strong output at 40 is the sort of thing that could potentially load up too much in-room. Maybe.

The Perlistens might *seem* to have less prominent bass than the NHTs because of that. But it's probably better quality bass. Curious about your thoughts since you have both speakers.

OK, I was wondering about this (your bold text). BTW, I did edit my earlier post in the event you didn't see it.

One thing, I always think about is how do I, even know what things are supposed to sound like in the first place? I assume without measurements, I'm just going by my completely subjective preferences that are based on absolutely nothing at all?

Luckily, my first system, which I still somewhat have (just changing amps for the same, but newest models) measured well according to reviews on the Bryston gear. The "audiophiles" would dismiss the equipment as too analytical. I was fortunate to basically fall into studio type gear that was not considered warm or "musical" but actually accurate which I think is probably a benefit.

I may move the speakers one more time, just an inch, maybe two toward the front wall. I'm still evaluating things from my earlier placement adjustment today and I like what my almost 60 year old diminished hearing is registering.

I'm also learning here and have fun with the responses and suggestions.

I suppose that's the whole point of forums like these.

Also, thanks to everyone for not ripping on me. I just don't have this skillset but I sure do enjoy hearing from people that do.

 

[ski2xblack]

Re placement, sure, play with it.

The NHTs were by design intended to be smushed up against the wall, for boundary gain and in-room extension. The Perlistens give you more wiggle room in that regard.

Getting them further apart should be beneficial for imaging, so that was a good idea. Image/soundstage does come from the recording, but your speaker positioning can alter it. If your speakers are in closer proximity to walls it will change the amount of room influence. Think about the ratio of direct to reflected sound. More direct sound can be had by moving your seat closer, as you tried. Greater distances puts you more in the reverberant field, with a greater degree of reflected sound hits your ears. Placing speakers closer to walls necessarily results in stronger reflections as well.

Fortunately, the Perlisten's polar and overall power response makes them very room friendly. The reflected sound closely follows the direct sound, making reflected sound benign, not deleterious to imaging. Caveat: more direct to reflected sound can give pinpoint imaging, where more reflected sound can provide a greater sense of immersion at the expense of pinpoint image specificity.

You're lucky. Your Perlistens lend themselves equally well to near field listening and far field. You get the best of both worlds, so explore them both.

 

[Gio-G]

1-2" might now make much difference. They "look" like they are in the roughly the place I would start for placement in that room. Where is MLP? Is it where you took the pic from? How far is that from the speakers? Looks like about 12+ ft. I would experiment with a bit of toe in vs. moving them closer or farther from the wall. The NHTs IIRC have a bit of toe built into the baffles. Try a few degrees in, so they "cross" behind the main listening position. Can you move the listening position as well? That can often make a bigger difference that moving the speakers a few inches. Maybe some baffles on the wall directly behind, on either side of the fireplace?

Plus, I'd live with them for some time, make a small adjustment, live with them for some time. You'll arrive at the right sound soon enough. When they completely disappear, that's when you know you've got it.

Hello, I think I covered a few of your questions earlier when I gave the measurements. My distance away and such. I'm in almost the perfect listening triangle. My measurement from a seated position from the hips is about 9' away from the front of the speakers.

Apologies, I don't know what "MLP" means. ------ Listening Position?

I won't be moving the couch further into the room so that ship sailed. My only options now are the move closer to the front wall. Do you know if soundstage depth is extremely dependent on where the speakers are in regards to the front wall? The increased space between the speakers was a noticeable improvement today.

The room is 17' 6" to the early side walls and dips to 18' 6" for the bay window cutout. Front wall to back wall is 13' 6" and the fireplace protrudes 7" into the room from the front wall.

Rear wall. My spot is on the left in the picture by the lamp. I sometimes put a couch pillow behind my head since I'm close to the wall but my ears are below the top of the couch too.

The NHTs were here.

I should clarify that I am nit picking here. I don't have any major problems. I "feel" that maybe I could enjoy more bass but I could also be accustomed to overly bloated bass from the NHTs.

I'm posting this while other answers are coming in so forgive me if this post is behind the curve.