Novice Question.

[Gio-G]

I made some additional adjustments and moved the speakers another 4" apart. The S7Ts are now at the limit of what I can do with their placement apart from one another. The speakers now sit 8' 6" apart when measured from the center of the drivers.
I have a 1/2" toe-in which puts the outside rear edge of each speaker 7 1/2" away from the front wall, and the inside rear edges 7" away.

It made a slight improvement is bass response, and I'm wondering if they (speakers) are getting a little help from the side walls in addition to the front wall because they're in closer proximity to the sides now? The outside rear corners of each speaker sit 4' 1" from the side walls which seems like an acceptable distance.

I also moved my listening chair an inch forward. Again, this is a limitation and I won't be able to adjust anything further. Measured from my hip area while seated, I sit 8' 6" away. Since the chair is able to recline, my head may be an additional few inches further away but it seems to be a very good sweet spot.

Things sound pretty damn good, I'd say great. I could likely live without the subs, but the curiosity will remain.

This is where I'm at.

Please refrain from the "oooooooooohhs and aaaaaaaaaaaawws" as this magnificent change in proxemics looks exactly the same as every other photo I have posted here.

I'd be curious to hear what somebody with a similar setup gained or maybe didn't gain by adding a couple of subs.

I think the only way I can decide on subs VS no subs at this stage is to audition a pair that are properly integrated into the room.

As I found with the NHTs, the actual source recording makes a huge difference.

I'm switching over to classical music today to hear how it all sounds.

That is my babbling post of the day to extend this thread for the sake of conversation.

Cheers!

 

[ski2xblack]

I just perused James' review of the S7T, paying close attention to the bass measurements and some of the design choices Perlisten went with. You should too, as I think it may address your questions.

Measurements of what they're doing in your room would be elucidating, but we can make a few guesses as to what's going on in your room.

Note the shallow, very gradual 1st order-ish roll-off below 100hz. As James noted in his review, this was intentional, as such an anechoic response tends to play well once the speaker gets plopped within a room, as they'll get some boundary and/or pressure vessel gain.

Also note the port tuning (the saddle in the impedance graph) which is way down in the mid 20hz area. Ported speakers don't get much in the way of boundary or cabin gain below port tuning, but they can fully capitalize on it above port tuning. The port tuning being so low gives you everything above the low 20's to play with, as far as boundary/cabin gain goes. You can eq freq above port resonance too.

So the S7T seems to be a kinda sorta overdamped low-tuned reflex approach, one that's essentially full range. It's a recipe for tight, dry, highly resolving and realistic bass. Speakers with more flat and deep anechoic response can sound too thick, too phat, and less resolving and realistic, once the room gets it's ugly mitts on things. Perlisten made excellent design choices here.

I think those S7T would be right up TLS' alley, guessing by the sort of bass he prefers as expressed here. I hope he's able to drop in on you. He can directly answer your questions, and might find another commercial speaker he actually likes. (He did give a thumbs up to fellow Minnesotan Squishman's KEFs, which also have a shelved down deep bass response, but Perlisten did it better.)

Your room is fairly large, so I can't imagine you get much if any cabin gain, but you will get boundary gain. Closer proximity to walls and corners will boost lower frequencies. That's what you're hearing, and as you have experienced first hand, placement can be a powerful (and free!) calibration tool.

I'm less convinced now that you *need* subs. I would give a qualified "Maybe", to address modal smoothing or get more spl perhaps. Neither of those needs are demonstrated.

 

[Gio-G]

I just perused James' review of the S7T, paying close attention to the bass measurements and some of the design choices Perlisten went with. You should too, as I think it may address your questions.

Measurements of what they're doing in your room would be elucidating, but we can make a few guesses as to what's going on in your room.

Note the shallow, very gradual 1st order-ish roll-off below 100hz. As James noted in his review, this was intentional, as such an anechoic response tends to play well once the speaker gets plopped within a room, as they'll get some boundary and/or pressure vessel gain.

Also note the port tuning (the saddle in the impedance graph) which is way down in the mid 20hz area. Ported speakers don't get much in the way of boundary or cabin gain below port tuning, but they can fully capitalize on it above port tuning. The port tuning being so low gives you everything above the low 20's to play with, as far as boundary/cabin gain goes. You can eq freq above port resonance too.

So the S7T seems to be a kinda sorta overdamped low-tuned reflex approach, one that's essentially full range. It's a recipe for tight, dry, highly resolving and realistic bass. Speakers with more flat and deep anechoic response can sound too thick, too phat, and less resolving and realistic, once the room gets it's ugly mitts on things. Perlisten made excellent design choices here.

I think those S7T would be right up TLS' alley, guessing by the sort of bass he prefers as expressed here. I hope he's able to drop in on you. He can directly answer your questions, and might find another commercial speaker he actually likes. (He did give a thumbs up to fellow Minnesotan Squishman's KEFs, which also have a shelved down deep bass response, but Perlisten did it better.)

Your room is fairly large, so I can't imagine you get much if any cabin gain, but you will get boundary gain. Closer proximity to walls and corners will boost lower frequencies. That's what you're hearing, and as you have experienced first hand, placement can be a powerful (and free!) calibration tool.

I'm less convinced now that you *need* subs. I would give a qualified "Maybe", to address modal smoothing or get more spl perhaps. Neither of those needs are demonstrated.

Thank you sir! (Assuming you are a sir). I am happy to say I had a wonderful conversation the other day with TLS!

The knowledge, experience and passion he has for audio is more than impressive to a fella like I.

I also appreciate your willingness to pop in here with your thoughts. I have read that review and while I didn't fully understand the most technical aspects, I did gather placement options with these are a lot more forgiving than other quality speakers.

I'm going out on a limb, but if you are US based, you are in Colorado judging by your handle? The 2XBlack says experienced ski buff.

I have a question for you based on the comments you made.

Do you think I'd benefit more if I backed the speakers in another inch or two towards the front wall?

Eric from Perlisten saw one of the pictures I sent, and he thought moving them out would be a good idea. I'm guessing he's looking at soundstage depth improvement as the reason.

I've read, and maybe TLS told me, that (soundstage) is more recording dependent than speaker placement dependent.

I could easily (it is not all that fun) slide/walk the speakers back an inch or two toward the front wall and probably get a bit more room gain in the bass. Apparently there are some really nice benefits and a few negatives in doing so.

I should also reiterate that things sound VERY good, actually great here, I just think there's perhaps a little extra depth I could gain with subs.

It is an unknown, and now that I think about it, maybe it isn't neutral to have more bass, or what the original recordings are to really sound like.
I could be a fan of overly accentuated bass? The NHTs were 2" from the front wall.

If that's the case (accentuated bass lover) I can quickly get over that.

I suppose without measurements, which TLS is capable of doing I'll not know.

After our conversation, I felt like I'd watched a BBC program on the dawn of HIFI.

He's a wonderful person to chat with live.