Can LFE be sent to large main floorstanding speakers if no subwoofer?

[dcrandon]

Yes, LFE is sent to Large speakers when NO subwoofer is present. Yes, there IS a way to adjust the LFE Level when using NO subwoofer. I should have been a bit more clear myself. The Low Frequency Effects Level setting applies to ANY speaker outputting the LFE, not just a subwoofer.
View attachment 67348

Be mindful of the -10dB setting when playing DTS Music. I can tell you my DTS music discs come in hot.

The Low Frequency Effects adjustment is NOT available. See my previous post above, and this picture:

 

[Trebdp83]

You are confusing the LFE Distribution setting with the Low Frequency Effects Level setting. They are separate settings in separate sections of the setup menu. The Low Frequency Effects setting should be adjusted and set first and then, if using a subwoofer, you'd select the amount of that newly adjusted LFE to distribute to the Large Fronts.

 

[TLS Guy]

You are confusing the LFE Distribution setting with the Low Frequency Effects Level setting. They are separate settings in separate sections of the setup menu. The Low Frequency Effects setting should be adjusted and set first and then, if using a subwoofer, you'd select the amount of that newly adjusted LFE to distribute to the Large Fronts.

That was my understanding also. So, as far as I can tell he would have to say he has a sub when he does not.

I heard those speakers once and they were quite impressive. However, I really think it unwise to send an LFE signal to those speakers, given their age, and speaker design prevalent at the time. The importance of those speakers given their rarity has to be considered also. The OP should really seriously consider purchasing a sub or two. Every day he should by asking himself the question: - "why don't I have subs"?

 

[Trebdp83]

A connected subwoofer is only necessary when one wants to use the LFE Distribution feature to send LFE to the subwoofer AND to the LARGE speakers. When NO subwoofer is used, the LFE Distribution feature DOES NOT work because the LFE is AUTOMATICALLY sent to the LARGE speakers BUT the Low Frequency Effects Level IS still adjustable for the LARGE speakers that get the LFE when NO subwoofer is used. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be about it. There is NO reason to concern oneself with LFE Distribution when NO subwoofer is used and this is why the Denon X4800H and others disable the feature when NO subwoofer is present because the LARGE speakers are already getting ALL of the LFE signal. That signal may prove too much and the Low Frequency Effects level can be adjusted accordingly. The low frequency range signals originating in the Channel for which the speakers are set to LARGE will still be FULL RANGE and output ALONG WITH the LFE signal that is NOT going to a subwoofer that is NOT used.

I would also recommend subs for multichannel signals containing LFE. While the X4800H does not feature the full out 2ch Playback feature, it's halfway there and one can set the speakers at Small for ALL channels with varying crossovers and use a subwoofer and also make an additional setting for any subwoofers when playing two channel music in Direct or Stereo mode. The subwoofer can be turned OFF when selecting those two modes if one likes audio output only from their capable Front speakers for music. Switch to an up mixer or straight decode of signals with LFE and the subwoofer will be activated using whatever settings were made for it concerning any crossovers, LFE Signal Levels and LFE Distribution Levels to Fronts.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I may have missed and may be talking out of turn so apologies.
Why not have a subwoofer in play?

 

[Trebdp83]

Anybody still confused about it need only go into their own system and turn their subwoofer OFF by setting it to NONE in Subwoofer settings. The Front speakers will automatically be set to Full Band/Large and will receive ALL of the LFE signal. The LFE Level can still be adjusted for output in the LFE Level settings. It IS NOT the LFE Distribution setting.

 

[Trebdp83]

I may have missed and may be talking out of turn so apologies.
Why not have a subwoofer in play?

There is no subwoofer in use concerning this case., yet.

 

[Trebdp83]

Those with capable Front speakers don't necessarily need a subwoofer for two channel music playback. A receiver such as the X4800H can handle a Full Band signal to Front speakers alone. But, throw in multichannel signals with ALL speakers set at Large using ALL nine amps at reference levels and things can go south quickly. For multichannel signals using a receiver with lots of amps in it, ALL speakers really should be set at Small with one or more subwoofers in the mix to lighten the load all the way around.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There is no subwoofer in use concerning this case., yet.

I thought so… was just wondering why, but I saw you posted music. As someone who frequently talks out of turn, I skimmed this and probably overlooked the use case.

 

[Trebdp83]

Please @William Lemmerhirt, chime in here. I'd be interested in your system settings. I'd also like to hear from @lovinthehd concerning his settings using the X4700H as it features 2ch Playback mode. I haven't counted up ALL of the possible settings concerning subwoofers and the signals played to them and sound modes applied to them in new Denon/Marantz products. I don't think many comprehend just how many there are now with units such as the A1H and AV10.

I know I get on Gene's nerves as I'm not shy about calling B#%llshit on some things, but I keep coming around here because of the folks that frequent this joint and because he is so well versed in Denon/Marantz products and even recognized that a feature such as LFE Distribution was needed when those using Fronts set at Large might also want LFE sent to them as well when using a subwoofer with the LFE + Main Subwoofer setting. I try to keep up with Denon/Marantz products as I started using them about thirty years ago now.

I'm currently using an Onkyo because I think they offer quite a bit on their mid level receivers for the money. In fact, Some features I want from them are ONLY available in their mid level receivers. I've contacted them about some silly features and just found a few more concerning "Double Bass" But, again, I digress. I better start my own thread about it. Yes, it will be as long winded as most of my other threads.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Please @William Lemmerhirt, chime in here. I'd be interested in your system settings. I'd also like to hear from @lovinthehd concerning his settings using the X4700H as it features 2ch Playback mode. I haven't counted up ALL of the possible settings concerning subwoofers and the signals played to them and sound modes applied to them in new Denon/Marantz products. I don't think many comprehend just how many there are now with units such as the A1H and AV10.

I know I get on Gene's nerves as I'm not shy about calling B#%llshit on some things, but I keep coming around here because of the folks that frequent this joint and because he is so well versed in Denon/Marantz products and even recognized that a feature such as LFE Distribution was needed when those using Fronts set at Large might also want LFE sent to them as well when using a subwoofer with the LFE + Main Subwoofer setting. I try to keep up with Denon/Marantz products as I started using them about thirty years ago now.

I'm currently using an Onkyo because I think they offer quite a bit on their mid level receivers for the money. In fact, Some features I want from them are ONLY available in their mid level receivers. I've contacted them about some silly features and just found a few more concerning "Double Bass" But, again, I digress. I better start my own thread about it. Yes, it will be as long winded as most of my other threads.

Roger that. Will be busy for a while though.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't particularly use the 2ch playback mode, regular stereo mode is fine, altho I did briefly on the 4700. I did use it on my 4520 for a bit longer a few years ago just to use it, but also just normally used stereo mode. I haven't played around with the LFE without a sub either....just easier to use a sub

 

[TLS Guy]

I think we need to take a little bit of a step back.

In commercial cinema systems there was an LFE channel as early as the 1970s.

For domestic systems the crucial date is 1987, that is when Dolby labs defined the specification of the 5.1 system and specified the LFE channel for home audio.

So from the beginning it was never intended that the LFE signal be sent to the main speakers. We can argue all day long as to whether this was a sensible specification. The fact is though that it has stuck. For passive speakers to make use of that channel to the right of the decibel point was never intended. So trying to do so, will always be second best and unsatisfactory.

It was apparent to me back in 2004 when I was designing my first AV system that the system had to be active to some degree. I wanted to keep to an integrated speaker system for a number of good reasons. But I know it would have to be active and it is. I also made use of the design to offload the midrange drivers, so the main speakers are a more complex and sophisticated system than standard 7.1 or 7.2.

In my view that has been a very satisfactory design strategy and given a level of flexibility with reduction in intermodular distortion not usually possible. But it remains a highly unusual integrated speaker solution. It could absolutely not be designed without active crossovers and other additions.

I think I have to conclude that trying to get round the Dolby 1987 spec without at least one active crossover and active speaker is actually a bad idea. You can only get so far if you decide to me a misfit. At some point you have to adhere to customary specifications, and not fight them.

At all times I encorporated and followed the Dolby spec. but just took the liberty of extending it a little.

My advice to the OP is to stop fighting the Dolby spec.

 

[Trebdp83]

The LFE is meant for a subwoofer for sure. But, not everybody has one and certainly not in the mid 1990’s when Dolby AC-3, now Dolby Digital, came to home video. So, Dolby accommodated those folks without subwoofers and LFE could be sent to Large speakers when no subwoofer was present.

Dolby also made sure the Front signals had frequencies that “complimented” those in the LFE channel for those with Stereo units that had to make due with PCM 2.0 when down mixing Dolby AC-3(DD 5.1). Dolby did not have to make any accommodations and neither did producers of AVP/AVRs. Those without subwoofers could have been s#%t out of luck.

For the sake of longer lasting equipment all the way around and better bass output, a subwoofer or two, or three, or four is the way to go. Perhaps five? Maybe six?

 

[PENG]

Think Klipsch Forte’ speakers. There is a “Passive Radiator” on the back of the cabinet. It is not connected to any wiring while the front facing woofer is “Active.” This is also the case with the VMPS Supertower III. One 15” “subwoofer” is “Active” while the other is a down facing “Passive Radiator.” “Active” subwoofer in this case does not mean “Powered” subwoofer in the modern vernacular.

Sure, so I wasn't wrong, was only referring to that one subwoofer driver, that according to specs, was powered, i.e. active. Don't know what there seemed to be a debate on this lol...

 

[PENG]

I think we need to take a little bit of a step back.

In commercial cinema systems there was an LFE channel as early as the 1970s.

For domestic systems the crucial date is 1987, that is when Dolby labs defined the specification of the 5.1 system and specified the LFE channel for home audio.

So from the beginning it was never intended that the LFE signal be sent to the main speakers. We can argue all day long as to whether this was a sensible specification. The fact is though that it has stuck. For passive speakers to make use of that channel to the right of the decibel point was never intended. So trying to do so, will always be second best and unsatisfactory.

It was apparent to me back in 2004 when I was designing my first AV system that the system had to be active to some degree. I wanted to keep to an integrated speaker system for a number of good reasons. But I know it would have to be active and it is. I also made use of the design to offload the midrange drivers, so the main speakers are a more complex and sophisticated system than standard 7.1 or 7.2.

In my view that has been a very satisfactory design strategy and given a level of flexibility with reduction in intermodular distortion not usually possible. But it remains a highly unusual integrated speaker solution. It could absolutely not be designed without active crossovers and other additions.

I think I have to conclude that trying to get round the Dolby 1987 spec without at least one active crossover and active speaker is actually a bad idea. You can only get so far if you decide to me a misfit. At some point you have to adhere to customary specifications, and not fight them.

At all times I encorporated and followed the Dolby spec. but just took the liberty of extending it a little.

My advice to the OP is to stop fighting the Dolby spec.

I don't see that the OP, or anyone posted so far is debating the merit of allowing the LFE signal to be routed to the main speakers, or not, when subwoofers are not used.

OP just want to know whether he can do so with the AVR-X4800H, on that, I am pretty sure he can, by setting the mains to large (aka full range) and subwoofer to "no", Gene also commented on that..

As to the new LFE Distribution feature that Denon, Marantz included in the new models from the X3800 through A1H, and the corresponding Marantz models, the Owner's manuals made that clear, except that the OP found out, he couldn't set it and got the message that it couldn't be done when a subwoofer is not used. That's not a big deal because not everyone needs to use LFE Distribution especially if one doesn't use a sub anyway. For the OP who is not using a sub, if he still want to use LFE Distribution in order to have more controls, he should be able to cheat, such as by saying "yes" to subwoofer, without actually connecting one, or connect a fake one (lol...)

 

[PENG]

Thank you for the explanation. Geez, Denon could have done a much better job of describing this stuff.

So, you say: " Notice that the “”Low Frequency Effects” level setting is NOT present in Subwoofer settings. This is because it is adjustable when using Large speakers and NO subwoofer. If it was only applicable when using a subwoofer, those using Large speakers with NO subwoofer could not back off the LFE at all."

Are you saying that with my large main speakers and NO sub, that the LFE is sent to the large main speakers automatically without any specific settings? In this case, there IS or IS NOT as way to change the level of the LFE?

The truth is, it is something like that but may be not exactly. We are playing stereo here, I responded to you on ASR, take a read there too if you want to keep it in stereo mode, thanks.

 

[Trebdp83]

Sure, so I wasn't wrong, was only referring to that one subwoofer driver, that according to specs, was powered, i.e. active. Don't know what there seemed to be a debate on this lol...

I didn’t think there was really a debate. It seemed as though some others thought it contained a powered subwoofer and an input for a subwoofer pre out like some speakers from Def Tech when it actually contains an active 15” woofer as well as a passive radiator.

 

[PENG]

I didn’t think there was really a debate. It seemed as though some others thought it contained a powered subwoofer and an input for a subwoofer pre out like some speakers from Def Tech when it actually contains an active 15” woofer as well as a passive radiator.

Okay, I see your point, that some may get mixed up with/or conflating powered/active, by external amps vs powered with the subwoofer' own amp.

Thanks for clarifying your point, agreed, it wasn't a debate, just clarification of the terminology used.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't see that the OP, or anyone posted so far is debating the merit of allowing the LFE signal to be routed to the main speakers, or not, when subwoofers are not used.

OP just want to know whether he can do so with the AVR-X4800H, on that, I am pretty sure he can, by setting the mains to large (aka full range) and subwoofer to "no", Gene also commented on that..

As to the new LFE Distribution feature that Denon, Marantz included in the new models from the X3800 through A1H, and the corresponding Marantz models, the Owner's manuals made that clear, except that the OP found out, he couldn't set it and got the message that it couldn't be done when a subwoofer is not used. That's not a big deal because not everyone needs to use LFE Distribution especially if one doesn't use a sub anyway. For the OP who is not using a sub, if he still want to use LFE Distribution in order to have more controls, he should be able to cheat, such as by saying "yes" to subwoofer, without actually connecting one, or connect a fake one (lol...)

That is exactly what I said some posts ago. Also if he mixes down to stereo, then he will not get the LFE channel. Anyone who made a device like that, would quickly be contacted by Dolby's lawyers. Dolby fiercely defend their specifications and protocols. If he mixed down multichannel to 2.1 and faked the sub then I think he would likely get the LFE channel.

As I have pointed out, his best and safest solution is a sub or two, especially if he is watching movies and playing the audio through those speakers. The LFE of quite a few movies could easily spell death to his bass drivers.