Can LFE be sent to large main floorstanding speakers if no subwoofer?

[PENG]

Was thinking of asking them myself, couldn't find any mention of it at all even in my older 3808 manual. Maybe I'll try experimenting with Edge of Tomorrow What I'm wondering if there's some sort of automatic level reduction as I'd think that extra 10dB of low frequency information could be stressful on speakers....

It may be difficult, probably need a test track design for that.

 

[lovinthehd]

It may be difficult, probably need a test track design for that.

Yeah was wondering how I'd be able to properly test it....but I'll figure something out.

 

[gene]

So, I confused here.

Confusion over LFE with only LARGE floor standing main speakers.

I have a Denon AVR-x4800h. I have large floor standing main speakers capable of reproducing low bass at high volume with low distortion.

I do not have a subwoofer.

I was under the impression that if I have the fronts set to LARGE and tell the Denon I do not have a sub, the LFE channel would be sent to the large main speakers.

I am now told by some that this is incorrect. That the only way to get an LFE signal is actually to have a sub. That there is no setting that would allow the LFE channel to be sent to the large main speakers. None. Therefore, I am missing the LFE signal.

Is this correct? And, if not, if there is a way to have LFE sent to the main speakers if I don't have a sub, can you show me whear in the manual or provide some other sort of "proof" or other info.

Thank you.

IF you turn off the sub channel on most modern AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, etc, the LFE will be re-routed to the mains. Sometimes this can be a bit too much LFE especially if your mains aren't up for the task so you should lower the LFE level at least 3-6dB (different than the sub level) if you're planning on doing this.

In my old system, I used a Yamaha CX-5200 Prepro. I ran the unit with no sub bc my mains are true full range towers. I wanted full LFE to go to them. I then added additional subs at the rear of the room using the main left/right unbalanced outputs and did the bass management locally within each sub since they were being sent fullrange signals. This can work but it's very tricky to get sounding right.

In most cases, I don't recommend this type of configuration. If you have true bass capable mains, get a new Denon/Marantz AVR with LFE routing so you can route LFE to them and still have dedicated sub channels with bass management and LFE routing. They added this feature because I kept bugging them for it. Works great on the Marantz AV10 as long as you don't use DIRAC.

 

[PENG]

They added this feature because I kept bugging them for it. Works great on the Marantz AV10 as long as you don't use DIRAC.

I was wondering whey that new setting: "LFE Distribution" is added to the new Denon and Marantz lines, now we know that's one of the things you bugged them for, including the pre out, and then individually pre out only by channels.

It seems that they listen to you a lot, so please keep this up, and in fact I would urge you to give them a list of doable and practical user wish list for their next line up, if too early for 2025, may be they can implement at least some of the requested features in the 2026 lineup.

Thanks in advance, I wanted to start collecting feedback from member users to make such a list, but you can do it a thousand times more effectively.

Things they can easily do it to further enhence bass management by adding back analog inputs to the AVR-XxxxH series for the center and independent subout 1 and subout 2. They have already done so to the FL and FR, at least for the NA models, but the center channel and subout 2 are important for people who want better bass control, and add external monoblock to the center channel that arguable could have more energy hence more power hungry than the FL and FR channels. That's just one example.

Such a list cold be sent to Yamaha, Anthem, NAD and Arcam as well and see who cares more about customers wishes, while keeping their prices competitive.

 

[Trebdp83]

A bit more clarification please, if you don’t mind Gene. If one wants to use LFE Distribution when no sub is present, must they set subwoofer setting to Yes, set it to LFE+Main and then adjust LFE Distribution?
The LFE signal output seems to still be tied to LFE+Main setting when Main/Front speakers are set at Large. The LFE Distribution setting comes last in the Subwoofer settings and the default is OFF. This seems to indicate that LFE Distribution only works when using a subwoofer with the LFE+Main setting selected and Large Main/Front speakers when one wants to feed a bit of the LFE signal to the Main/Front speakers as well as to the subwoofer.

Another question for you Gene, if you don’t mind. When running Large speakers with the A5200, why was using unbalanced Front pre outs chosen over sub pre outs using the Extra Bass setting which is the Yamaha equivalent to the Denon/Marantz LFE+Main setting when Main/Front speakers set at Large? Did you find your connection more adjustable than the other connection? I know Extra Bass does awful things with Small Speakers configured but was wondering about it

Annoying still for many is the need to apply LFE+Main, Double Bass or Extra Bass settings to Subwoofer output when Main/Front speakers are set at Full Band/Large in many AVP/AVRs because LFE is cut off from Subwoofer pre out when they are not applied. The manuals say LFE “may” not be output to the subwoofer when those settings are not applied. I think it safe to say it is NEVER output from the subwoofer in that case.

Unfortunately, the X4800H is a bit gimped even from the X4700H regarding subwoofer settings and those wanting serious customizability have to step up to the X6800H to get “2ch Playback” and “Bass Extraction” settings to adjust two channel and multichannel signals independently for playback and also to adjust the low frequencies copied to the subwoofer when using Large Main/Front speakers instead of them being fixed at 80Hz.

 

[Tankini]

A bit more clarification please, if you don’t mind Gene. If one wants to use LFE Distribution when no sub is present, must they set subwoofer setting to Yes, set it to LFE+Main and then adjust LFE Distribution?
The LFE signal output seems to still be tied to LFE+Main setting when Main/Front speakers are set at Large. The LFE Distribution setting comes last in the Subwoofer settings and the default is OFF. This seems to indicate that LFE Distribution only works when using a subwoofer with the LFE+Main setting selected and Large Main/Front speakers when one wants to feed a bit of the LFE signal to the Main/Front speakers as well as to the subwoofer.

Another question for you Gene, if you don’t mind. When running Large speakers with the A5200, why was using unbalanced Front pre outs chosen over sub pre outs using the Extra Bass setting which is the Yamaha equivalent to the Denon/Marantz LFE+Main setting when Main/Front speakers set at Large? Did you find your connection more adjustable than the other connection? I know Extra Bass does awful things with Small Speakers configured but was wondering about it

Annoying still for many is the need to apply LFE+Main, Double Bass or Extra Bass settings to Subwoofer output when Main/Front speakers are set at Full Band/Large in many AVP/AVRs because LFE is cut off from Subwoofer pre out when they are not applied. The manuals say LFE “may” not be output to the subwoofer when those settings are not applied. I think it safe to say it is NEVER output from the subwoofer in that case.

Unfortunately, the X4800H is a bit gimped even from the X4700H regarding subwoofer settings and those wanting serious customizability have to step up to the X6800H to get “2ch Playback” and “Bass Extraction” settings to adjust two channel and multichannel signals independently for playback and also to adjust the low frequencies copied to the subwoofer when using Large Main/Front speakers instead of them being fixed at 80Hz.
View attachment 67259

" I know Extra Bass does awful things"

Kind of reminds me of the old days before DSP. Are you old enough to remember the Infamous loudness button and the old receivers. It would boost bass somewhat not much really. It would Induced distortion Especially with small speakers. Thanks for asking for us Yamaha fanboz, wanted to ask some of The very same questions you asked, but I didn't want to upset the thread with my Yamaha questions.

 

[Trebdp83]

Yeah, I remember the Loudness button on older receivers. The LFE question of the thread applies to all makes of AVP/AVRs. Unfortunately, different makes have different nomenclature for the setting used to get a signal to the subwoofers while using Front speakers set at Full Band/Large. Yamaha's "Extra Bass" setting works like Denon/Marantz LFE+Main setting when Main/Front speakers are set at Large BUT boosts the bass in ALL channels when Main/Front speakers are set at Small. You'd never know there is a difference in how the setting works with different Main/Front speaker size settings as their manuals simply say that bass is boosted no matter the speaker size setting. Integra/Onkyo/Pioneer units use the Double Bass setting to get signals to the subwoofer when the Main/Front are set at Full Band. When the Main/Front are set at Small, Double Bass is not selectable at all.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, I remember the Loudness button on older receivers. The LFE question of the thread applies to all makes of AVP/AVRs. Unfortunately, different makes have different nomenclature for the setting used to get a signal to the subwoofers while using Front speakers set at Full Band/Large. Yamaha's "Extra Bass" setting works like Denon/Marantz LFE+Main setting when Main/Front speakers are set at Large BUT boosts the bass in ALL channels when Main/Front speakers are set at Small. You'd never know there is a difference in how the setting works with different Main/Front speaker size settings as their manuals simply say that bass is boosted no matter the speaker size setting. Integra/Onkyo/Pioneer units use the Double Bass setting to get signals to the subwoofer when the Main/Front are set at Full Band. When the Main/Front are set at Small, Double Bass is not selectable at all.

You refer to boost as being the area of bass overlap?

 

[Trebdp83]

By boost, I mean the bass is boosted when one is using a Yamaha AVP/AVR and speakers are set at Small with "Extra Bass" ON. This is in addition to the frequencies below the crossover setting of the Small speakers and those in the LFE channel being sent to the subwoofer. The bass boost is added to the Small speakers as well as the subwoofer. The boost is very evident. When Main/Fronts are Large and "Extra Bass" is ON, it works just like "LFE+Main" and "Double Bass" without any artificial boosting of the bass in any of the channels.

 

[lovinthehd]

By boost, I mean the bass is boosted when one is using a Yamaha AVP/AVR and speakers are set at Small with "Extra Bass" ON. This is in addition to the frequencies below the crossover setting of the Small speakers and those in the LFE channel being sent to the subwoofer. The bass boost is added to the Small speakers as well as the subwoofer. The boost is very evident. When Main/Fronts are Large and "Extra Bass" is ON, it works just like "LFE+Main" and "Double Bass" without any artificial boosting of the bass in any of the channels.

Like a combination of not only overlapped frequencies but rather additional level or eq applied?

ps would be nice if such features were explained technically in the manuals....

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, a combo. There are no perfect manuals. Denon/Marantz are very informative but somewhat confusing at times. Integra/Onkyo/Pioneer are ok but a mess with new models concerning some features. Yamaha runs behind the others in my experience with all of them.

 

[Trebdp83]

So, I confused here.

Confusion over LFE with only LARGE floor standing main speakers.

I have a Denon AVR-x4800h. I have large floor standing main speakers capable of reproducing low bass at high volume with low distortion.

I do not have a subwoofer.

I was under the impression that if I have the fronts set to LARGE and tell the Denon I do not have a sub, the LFE channel would be sent to the large main speakers.

I am now told by some that this is incorrect. That the only way to get an LFE signal is actually to have a sub. That there is no setting that would allow the LFE channel to be sent to the large main speakers. None. Therefore, I am missing the LFE signal.

Is this correct? And, if not, if there is a way to have LFE sent to the main speakers if I don't have a sub, can you show me whear in the manual or provide some other sort of "proof" or other info.

Thank you.

It's always good to get info straight from the source. Concerning Dolby LFE, their LFE Usage information for engineers and game engines is an interesting read.

LFE Usage | Dolby Games

games.dolby.com

.

Source audio output settings need to be considered for playback of LFE. Some may be unknowingly down mixing signals before they are output to an AVP/AVR. There will be no LFE signal sent to Large Main/Front speakers or any subwoofers that may be present. There may be an up mixer applied to the signal for output and some may believe that, because audio is coming from various speakers and any included subwoofers, LFE is present. But, if the incoming signal is 2.0 and NOT a multichannel signal, there is no LFE present.

Some do actually have full range speakers capable of handling LFE without much fuss. But, that doesn't mean a receiver used to power them is as robust. One or more powered subwoofers will take some of the heat off of the receiver and speakers and can be placed where needed while Large Main/Front speakers may not produce the desired level of bass because of their placement in the room.

Without a subwoofer present, the X4800H works fine. But, when using a subwoofer, the 2ch Playback setting from the X4700H was dropped and one has to go up to the X6800H to get it back. It allowed for separate subwoofer settings for two channel signals. So, one could have Large Main/Front speakers with LFE+Main setting applied for the subwoofer when listening to music in Direct or Stereo mode and use the Small speaker setting with a selected crossover and LFE setting for the subwoofer when watching movies with multichannel tracks. The X6800H also allows for adjustment of the frequencies copied to the subwoofer when LFE+Main is selected using the Bass Extraction setting.

 

[TLS Guy]

It's always good to get info straight from the source. Concerning Dolby LFE, their LFE Usage information for engineers and game engines is an interesting read.

LFE Usage | Dolby Games

games.dolby.com

.
View attachment 67274

View attachment 67275
Source audio output settings need to be considered for playback of LFE. Some may be unknowingly down mixing signals before they are output to an AVP/AVR. There will be no LFE signal sent to Large Main/Front speakers or any subwoofers that may be present. There may be an up mixer applied to the signal for output and some may believe that, because audio is coming from various speakers and any included subwoofers, LFE is present. But, if the incoming signal is 2.0 and NOT a multichannel signal, there is no LFE present.

Some do actually have full range speakers capable of handling LFE without much fuss. But, that doesn't mean a receiver used to power them is as robust. One or more powered subwoofers will take some of the heat off of the receiver and speakers and can be placed where needed while Large Main/Front speakers may not produce the desired level of bass because of their placement in the room.

Without a subwoofer present, the X4800H works fine. But, when using a subwoofer, the 2ch Playback setting from the X4700H was dropped and one has to go up to the X6800H to get it back. It allowed for separate subwoofer settings for two channel signals. So, one could have Large Main/Front speakers with LFE+Main setting applied for the subwoofer when listening to music in Direct or Stereo mode and use the Small speaker setting with a selected crossover and LFE setting for the subwoofer when watching movies with multichannel tracks. The X6800H also allows for adjustment of the frequencies copied to the subwoofer when LFE+Main is selected using the Bass Extraction setting.

Thanks for that refresher course, and that is my recollection. The design of my AV room started 20 years ago in 2004. I was 57 then and probably had a few more neurons in my noggin.

An how the bottom line is that 2.0 can not contain the LFE by definition. So a 2.1 signal can contain an LFE channel.

The other point to understand is that the LFE is not the same as the sub output. Now we get to something people seem to refuse to understand.

The sub signal is a crossover. So the high and low pass will be where you set it. The LFE signal will always have a bandwidth of 3 Hz to 120Hz.
The LFE signal unless set to LFE plus main is on the sub outputs, but a portion can be sent to mains with LFE plus main to speakers set to large.

If you downmix to stereo, as I understand it, the LFE channel will be lost, unless there has been a change to Doly specs I am not aware of.

So, the LFE is in the the channels to the right side of the decimal point. This will have an FR out to 120 Hz no matter where you set the sub crossover.

So you need to make sure a sub has a a bandwidth at least out to 120 Hz. So if you want the LFE channel to be reproduced properly you must not set a crossover on a sub amp below 120 Hz, in fact you should set it as high as possible.

All this explains why I designed my system the way I did. So that one bass driver in each cabinet handles the sub and LFE signals plus a mixed BSC buffered signal to off load the mids and also be able to voice the speakers to the room. The other bass driver in each cabinet handles the low pass plus the LFE. In practice this has worked out very well indeed and has be a pivotal part of the system design, and a significant step up from standard practice in my view. It is only possible with an active approach and not possible with passive technology.

 

[Kingnoob]

It's always good to get info straight from the source. Concerning Dolby LFE, their LFE Usage information for engineers and game engines is an interesting read.

LFE Usage | Dolby Games

games.dolby.com

.
View attachment 67274

View attachment 67275
Source audio output settings need to be considered for playback of LFE. Some may be unknowingly down mixing signals before they are output to an AVP/AVR. There will be no LFE signal sent to Large Main/Front speakers or any subwoofers that may be present. There may be an up mixer applied to the signal for output and some may believe that, because audio is coming from various speakers and any included subwoofers, LFE is present. But, if the incoming signal is 2.0 and NOT a multichannel signal, there is no LFE present.

Some do actually have full range speakers capable of handling LFE without much fuss. But, that doesn't mean a receiver used to power them is as robust. One or more powered subwoofers will take some of the heat off of the receiver and speakers and can be placed where needed while Large Main/Front speakers may not produce the desired level of bass because of their placement in the room.

Without a subwoofer present, the X4800H works fine. But, when using a subwoofer, the 2ch Playback setting from the X4700H was dropped and one has to go up to the X6800H to get it back. It allowed for separate subwoofer settings for two channel signals. So, one could have Large Main/Front speakers with LFE+Main setting applied for the subwoofer when listening to music in Direct or Stereo mode and use the Small speaker setting with a selected crossover and LFE setting for the subwoofer when watching movies with multichannel tracks. The X6800H also allows for adjustment of the frequencies copied to the subwoofer when LFE+Main is selected using the Bass Extraction setting.

There’s no reason to buy towers with subs unless they can be connected to the lfe channel, but op are active subs so it shouldn’t matter . My onkyo sends lfe to main with subs off .

 

[TLS Guy]

There’s no reason to buy towers with subs unless they can be connected to the lfe channel, but op are active subs so it shouldn’t matter . My onkyo sends lfe to main with subs off .

Not of you downmix it to 2.0 stereo it won't, by Dolby specs.

 

[isolar8001]

There’s no reason to buy towers with subs unless they can be connected to the lfe channel, but op are active subs so it shouldn’t matter . My onkyo sends lfe to main with subs off .

Of course it does...no one has the advanced equipment you have though.
Think before you post.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think that's probably the root of the assumption that when you have no sub there's no LFE, it's when people are using 2.0 setups rather than 5.0 or more setups.

 

[Trebdp83]

Yeah, experimented with settings and signals today. My head hurts. Those with no subs and capable Main/Front speakers set at Full Band/Large are spared many a headache and LFE gets sent to those Main/Front speakers. Add a subwoofer and things get far more complicated concerning different signals and settings using different AVP/AVRs.

Regarding LFE Distribution, it’s all over the place with Denon/Marantz. The X3800H and X4800H support it but do not include 2ch Playback settings. So, LFE Distribution setting will apply to all sound modes, not just Direct or Stereo modes according to the manual.The X6800H and Cinema 30 support LFE Distribution and 2ch Playback BUT LFE Distribution only works with 2ch Playback settings. Again, according to the manuals.

For those wanting LFE Distribution AND separate LFE Distribution settings for 2ch Playback modes when using subs, the Denon A1H and Marantz AV10 fit the bill. So, say one is listening to Dolby Atmos music. They can listen to it in its native form using multiple speakers using Small speaker settings with no LFE Distribution or use Main/Fronts at Large with LFE Distribution.They can also switch to Stereo mode and still use the Main/Front speakers at Large with LFE Distribution to feed them a bit of the LFE that is still going to the subs. But, why? Well, cuz’ these f#%kin’ toys cost a fortune and they better have as many features as they can cram in the f#%kers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, experimented with settings and signals today. My head hurts. Those with no subs and capable Main/Front speakers set at Full Band/Large are spared many a headache and LFE gets sent to those Main/Front speakers. Add a subwoofer and things get far more complicated concerning different signals and settings using different AVP/AVRs.

Regarding LFE Distribution, it’s all over the place with Denon/Marantz. The X3800H and X4800H support it but do not include 2ch Playback settings. So, LFE Distribution setting will apply to all sound modes, not just Direct or Stereo modes according to the manual.The X6800H and Cinema 30 support LFE Distribution and 2ch Playback BUT LFE Distribution only works with 2ch Playback settings. Again, according to the manuals.

For those wanting LFE Distribution AND separate LFE Distribution settings for 2ch Playback modes when using subs, the Denon A1H and Marantz AV10 fit the bill. So, say one is listening to Dolby Atmos music. They can listen to it in its native form using multiple speakers using Small speaker settings with no LFE Distribution or use Main/Fronts at Large with LFE Distribution.They can also switch to Stereo mode and still use the Main/Front speakers at Large with LFE Distribution to feed them a bit of the LFE that is still going to the subs. But, why? Well, cuz’ these f#%kin’ toys cost a fortune and they better have as many features as they can cram in the f#%kers.

Wouldn't expect the 2ch setup with sub/crossover to have to do with LFE.

 

[Kingnoob]

Yeah, experimented with settings and signals today. My head hurts. Those with no subs and capable Main/Front speakers set at Full Band/Large are spared many a headache and LFE gets sent to those Main/Front speakers. Add a subwoofer and things get far more complicated concerning different signals and settings using different AVP/AVRs.

Regarding LFE Distribution, it’s all over the place with Denon/Marantz. The X3800H and X4800H support it but do not include 2ch Playback settings. So, LFE Distribution setting will apply to all sound modes, not just Direct or Stereo modes according to the manual.The X6800H and Cinema 30 support LFE Distribution and 2ch Playback BUT LFE Distribution only works with 2ch Playback settings. Again, according to the manuals.

For those wanting LFE Distribution AND separate LFE Distribution settings for 2ch Playback modes when using subs, the Denon A1H and Marantz AV10 fit the bill. So, say one is listening to Dolby Atmos music. They can listen to it in its native form using multiple speakers using Small speaker settings with no LFE Distribution or use Main/Fronts at Large with LFE Distribution.They can also switch to Stereo mode and still use the Main/Front speakers at Large with LFE Distribution to feed them a bit of the LFE that is still going to the subs. But, why? Well, cuz’ these f#%kin’ toys cost a fortune and they better have as many features as they can cram in the f#%kers.

$7000 they cost a boatload yes only for people with dedicated theater rooms . Some brands 20k+ cost as much as a new civic .

Not of you downmix it to 2.0 stereo it won't, by Dolby specs.

Ouch .. so I guess full range just is enough bad to trick t into thinking that was lfe . Your right lfe would over power small towers.
op speakers probably costed a lot $$$ but how capable is the 15” sub ? Looks old can’t be high Xmax .. gotta be someway to run lfe to those subs ?