Adding a sub to a 2ch system

A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
Separates are just too expensive , does it have a subwoofer output or do you gotta use line level speaker inputs ?? 8k+ for amp and preamp imagine the speakers that could buy .
With that budget I’d just get towers, and a high end sub.
He has a very small room. Towers would not work there
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
What a clown show who pays $7k euros for an avr or pre amplifier without a sub output??
Op just use a subwoofer with speaker outputs on it.


He thought initially that R3 in his room would give more than enough bass. But it looks like it is not the case. So he is thinking about a sub
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thought it is possible to apply crossover manipulations to the original signal before sending it to DAC assuming app on pc can do that?
Think of the routing of the signal, if the computer does create separate signals for 2.1 output, how do you get them thru a dac or pre-amp that only has 2.0 inputs (and output in case of dac)?
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I don't see how you would control the sub levels implementing the hpf via software. With that two channel kit, it really needs to be implemented downstream from the pre-amp/volume control. That means an active x-over between the pre and the amp.

I would advise your friend to follow the KISS plan and start with subs. He should be able to get very nice results without overcomplexifying things.
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
Think of the routing of the signal, if the computer does create separate signals for 2.1 output, how do you get them thru a dac or pre-amp that only has 2.0 inputs (and output in case of dac)?
Any 2.1 external dacs exist? With avr it would be much easier. Think he is looking at minidsp solution now. It would probably cover both bass management and delays/volumes, right?
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
He thought initially that R3 in his room would give more than enough bass. But it looks like it is not the case. So he is thinking about a sub
Yeah my rooms are tiny I got towers in both, I rely on the subs for most my bass they are just better suited for the task . Even if I ran towers full range I can’t tell a difference vs 80 unless it’s on music or Netflix.
get a sub with high level speakers-inputs on the back like my vintage klh. Then you can get speaker wires and hook front speakers to the sub problems solved .
E220A0BA-BEDC-40C0-8389-E9C4B7ECE9CF.jpeg
 
JLGF1

JLGF1

Enthusiast
Preamp does not have preouts. Also, how to get crossovers, delays and volumes sorted?
You mean no sub out? By definition, doesn't a preamp only have pre-outs? :)

He's boxed himself in. Either a sub with speaker level inputs or a miniDSP is probably the easiest way out of the jam.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You mean no sub out? By definition, doesn't a preamp only have pre-outs? :)

He's boxed himself in. Either a sub with speaker level inputs or a miniDSP is probably the easiest way out of the jam.
The pre-amp has three pre-outs, left right and mono xlrs. No bass management for the mono output.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
Hi,

Trying to help my friend who despite having a good 2ch system is not happy with the bass. He would like to add a small sub (his room is quite small).

His system - PC with JRiver, some external DAC, Benchmark preamp, Benchmark amp, KEF R3. I told him this pair of Benchmark amps is overkill for what he wants, good AVR would be enough, but... Anyway, what is the best way to connect a sub? Preamp does not have preouts. Also, how to get crossovers, delays and volumes sorted?
This pre ?why do people buy such stuff ?
 
SwirlingMist

SwirlingMist

Enthusiast
Well the free solution is to have him experiment with his listening position, he’s probably sitting in a null. He could also get improved bass my relocating his speakers.

if you’re going to be spending money, I’d suggest getting some better basier speakers, headphones, or a receiver with a sub output. All easily found used.

To specifically just add a subwoofer to a high end 2 channel system, I would suggest a BBE 382i SW, which is a rack mounted unit, or get a Peachtree Nova 150,300,500 with built in sub out but I think a $50 used receiver, or a $200 flagship one with preamp outputs is the best path to a sub out. As they have great performance, and especially with pre-outs you can use a really fancy 2 channel power amp with it, or his existing two channel amp if he prefers it to the sound of the receiver’s built in amps.

Also make sure the speakers are wired in phase, (red to red, black to black) and that the jumpers in the back of the speakers are present if they have two sets of terminals. That’s an easy way to loose bass.

Ya can’t go wrong with bigger better speakers, but you can easily spend money on extra gizmos that don’t get you very far, including the subs which can sometimes be pretty woosy. In one brochure the sub and the speakers had the same low frequency range. So obviously that sub was not the one to get, as you want your sub to go lower and further than the speakers can go.
 
JLGF1

JLGF1

Enthusiast
The pre-amp has three pre-outs, left right and mono xlrs. No bass management for the mono output.
While not ideal, due to no HPF, I would think the obvious first try would be a sub with XLR input. If integration isn't acceptable they could always add the miniDSP.
 
SwirlingMist

SwirlingMist

Enthusiast
All you really need to do is get a copy of the signal to the sub, and then on the sub you’ll have control for phase, volume, and the crossover point. For that you can go to RadioShack and get Y splitters to split the signal from the pre-amp into two outputs. With that method you won’t be able to limit the low end going to the speakers, but that should be fine as long as they aren’t really small satellite speakers.
 
SwirlingMist

SwirlingMist

Enthusiast
To get the delays right, you gotta get a receiver with pre-outs and a room correction microphone. Then preput into his amps, and use the receiver to calculate all the delays in the system. (Distances, processing delays, etc) so you get the smarts of the receiver, and the hifi of his existing gear.
 
JLGF1

JLGF1

Enthusiast
get Y splitters to split the signal from the pre-amp into two outputs.
Doesn't using the available XLR output accomplish the same thing? Many subs out there with XLR inputs; Rhythmik etc. But, yes, your method works if the sub has no XLR or they don't want to use a cable adapter.

Of course, neither one of these allows for distance, delay mgmt. But, they could add miniDSP if they need that (adding additional benefits of HPF & PEQ).
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
All you really need to do is get a copy of the signal to the sub, and then on the sub you’ll have control for phase, volume, and the crossover point. For that you can go to RadioShack and get Y splitters to split the signal from the pre-amp into two outputs. With that method you won’t be able to limit the low end going to the speakers, but that should be fine as long as they aren’t really small satellite speakers.
This pre-amp already has three pre-outs....left, right and mono. No need for a splitter. The sub can only adjust low pass filter, not a crossover.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
He has a very small room. Towers would not work there
I use towers in tiny rooms, there the answer for mid bass and a subwoofer is answer for low bass : r3 is a very nice speaker but don’t expect any bass from that small of a box it has a 6.5” woofer which probably goes to 50-40hz?
If he wanted bass unfortunately you can’t have deep bass and small size .
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
I use towers in tiny rooms, there the answer for mid bass and a subwoofer is answer for low bass : r3 is a very nice speaker but don’t expect any bass from that small of a box it has a 6.5” woofer which probably goes to 50-40hz?
If he wanted bass unfortunately you can’t have deep bass and small size .
If you have a sub then you don't necessarily need towers, especially in a small room. Either towers or bookshelves will be crossed over at 80hz and R3 according to measurements can go to about 50hz. So it doesn't matter. It would matter without a sub, but we are exploring adding a sub. Btw generally bookshelves are better value if they are in the same price range as you are not paying for bigger cabinet, but for better internals.

Towers normally have higher sensitivity but in small room this is not a concern
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
If you have a sub then you don't necessarily need towers, especially in a small room. Either towers or bookshelves will be crossed over at 80hz and R3 according to measurements can go to about 50hz. So it doesn't matter. It would matter without a sub, but we are exploring adding a sub. Btw generally bookshelves are better value if they are in the same price range as you are not paying for bigger cabinet, but for better internals.

Towers normally have higher sensitivity but in small room this is not a concern
Yeah if you don’t listen louder like I do , then bookshelves are fine . towers are an easier load on my avr as mains, more sensitivity.
I think you’re missing the point I was just saying the iron law says you can’t have all 3 at once .
to the op this is how one of my mini subs are set up , honestly this sub barely makes-enough bass to use .
Do this
306246F4-1B9F-41E2-A447-BA01CB65E5D2.jpeg
73ED4BBB-D35D-4296-972E-B4389B340281.jpeg
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
Yeah if you don’t listen louder like I do , then bookshelves are fine . towers are an easier load on my avr as mains, more sensitivity.
I think you’re missing the point I was just saying the iron law says you can’t have all 3 at once .
to the op this is how one of my mini subs are set up , honestly this sub barely makes-enough bass to use .
Do thisView attachment 61326View attachment 61327
All I know is it will work just fine if we manage to properly connect a sub to this system, even a small one. In my small room I have 2 sb2000. Thanks to room gain they go as low as to 10hz. I was thinking about sb3000 micro for my friend
 

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