Amplifiers bench tests results-should we care or not, regardless of audibility, are those thresholds such as -100, -80, -40 dB THD+N, IMD etc.useful?

[PENG]

If you're going to claim that someone posted something which is wrong, please re-post it, so we don't need to guess at what you're referring to. "There you go again" doesn't mean anything without the context.

Okay I was feeling lazy to search some old thread/post when I just happened to remember them. Sorry about that. By the way, happy new year!

 

[Trell]

That was just a figure of speech, meant as a hyperbole to emphasize the disparity between THD of speakers and Amp/AVR/AVP.

So all your numbers you throw around are just made up to support your arguments? So what you write is just BS?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't remember seeing .1% THD stated for a speaker- someone may have developed one but after seeing so many laser interferometry photos and videos over the decades and new designs still haven't eliminated it, I'm not too optimistic the speakers will reach that low level.

What’s the lowest SPEAKERS THD 20Hz-20kHz you’ve ever seen?

 

[Trell]

Dude, lay off your aggressive behavior. It’s an audio forum for people to chat and have fun.

If you don’t understand this concept of humor of making hyperbole, please just don’t respond to any of my posts which are meant for OTHER PEOPLE, not you.

You idea of fun is to belittle other people who just thinks that Denon could have just another choice of replacement DAC IC for about the same price?

@Steve81, I wish I were still a mod so I can ban this guy.

 

[highfigh]

What’s the lowest THD 20Hz-20kHz you’ve ever seen?

I didn't document all of it and over 50 years and it wasn't anything I thought I needed to know by this point in time, but I'll check with some of the manufacturers whose speakers I sell and will report anything I find. The assumed THD was 1-3% for most of that time, but new technologies have probably allowed the upper end to drop (hopefully).

 

[Steve81]

You idea of fun is to belittle other people?

Again, what I say is for other people, not for you. So please just leave me alone.

Just add each other to your ignore lists and move on please.

 

[Alex2507]

Just add each other to your ignore lists and move on please.

Ban 'em both.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ban 'em both.

Mother……

 

[PENG]

What’s the lowest THD 20Hz-20kHz you’ve ever seen?

I don't know about him, the lowest I have ever seen are those measured on ASR, the top two are the AHB2 and LA90.

Worse case only:
Benchmark AHB2 (about 0.003%/-90 dB 90 kHz bandwidth) and
Topping's LA90 (about 0.0007%/-103 dB 45 kHz bandwidth). Both are class AB amps.

Those %/-dB levels were for 90/45 kHz bandwidth, for 20 kHz, the numbers will obviously be a bit lower, especially if measured with the commonly used 1 kHz sine wave signal:
AHB2: 0.0003% at rated 190 W into 4 ohms, both channels driven
LA90: 0.00018% at 56 W into 4 ohms, both channel driven

Expect much better/lower numbers in the common 1 kHz rated output into 8 ohm test.

For a rough comparison, the best Yamaha measured there was the WXA50, better than the RX-A3080 and the CX-A5200, as well as the A-S801 measured by Gene:

Worst case:
about 0.17%, 22 kHz bandwidth

The popular 1 kHz test at rated output only:
55 W at 0.06%
50W at 0.003%

We both know such numbers have little practical meaning for most people in most cases, but they do tell us something about the "engineering excellence" and build quality of the products.

To some extent (and only to some extent), it is like you know a fully equipped Toyota Camry is practically as good as its comparable Lexus, and in a blind test (auto pilot mode engaged obviously) you may not be able to tell them apart, but you will still happily pay more for the Lexus version.

 

[highfigh]

Let me ask this- why is THD+N at maximum output important when we don't use these at maximum output and at low to moderate levels? The noise level is still the same WRT output, so it will be totally inaudible? If the S/N is -100dB, who can hear that when the output in the room is 75dB?

Most of this is purely academic.

 

[highfigh]

I don't know about him, the lowest I have ever seen are those measured on ASR, the top two are the AHB2 and LA90.

Worse case only:
Benchmark AHB2 (about 0.003%/-90 dB 90 kHz bandwidth) and
Topping's LA90 (about 0.0007%/-103 dB 45 kHz bandwidth). Both are class AB amps.

Those %/-dB levels were for 90/45 kHz bandwidth, for 20 kHz, the numbers will obviously be a bit lower, especially if measured with the commonly used 1 kHz sine wave signal:
AHB2: 0.0003% at rated 190 W into 4 ohms, both channels driven
LA90: 0.00018% at 56 W into 4 ohms, both channel driven

Expect much better/lower numbers in the common 1 kHz rated output into 8 ohm test.

For a rough comparison, the best Yamaha measured there was the WXA50, better than the RX-A3080 and the CX-A5200, as well as the A-S801 measured by Gene:

Worst case:
about 0.17%, 22 kHz bandwidth

The popular 1 kHz test at rated output only:
55 W at 0.06%
50W at 0.003%

I just looked at the specs for the old Sony TA-F6b that I sold a few years ago- it was made in the late-'70s, was the first consumer product with Pulse Locked Power Supply and the specs are shown as (copied from the link):

Continuous power 8Ω:	100 + 100 Watts
Frequency Response:	DC-100,000 (+0/-1 dB) HZ
Signal to Noise Ratio:	>115 db A, short circuited
Damping factor:	50
Harmonic Distortion:	>0.03 % at rated output

Sony TA-F6 B - Specifications, Pictures, Reviews, Comparison - Classic Audio

The service manual shows power output and THD with both channels driven simultaneously-, <.015%THD @ 1W. Is the difference between that and .0007% audible? I seriously doubt it. Are bragging rights important? Possible, but more for manufacturers who want to advertise this, or owners who want to waggle it in front of others online and at audio gatherings (if they still exist).

file:///C:/Users/USER/Downloads/hfe_sony_ta-f6b_service_en%20(1).pdf

 

[PENG]

I just looked at the specs for the old Sony TA-F6b that I sold a few years ago- it was made in the late-'70s, was the first consumer product with Pulse Locked Power Supply and the specs are shown as (copied from the link):

Continuous power 8Ω:	100 + 100 Watts
Frequency Response:	DC-100,000 (+0/-1 dB) HZ
Signal to Noise Ratio:	>115 db A, short circuited
Damping factor:	50
Harmonic Distortion:	>0.03 % at rated output

Sony TA-F6 B - Specifications, Pictures, Reviews, Comparison - Classic Audio

The service manual shows power output and THD with both channels driven simultaneously-, <.015%THD @ 1W. Is the difference between that and .0007% audible? I seriously doubt it. Are bragging rights important? Possible, but more for manufacturers who want to advertise this, or owners who want to waggle it in front of others online and at audio gatherings (if they still exist).

file:///C:/Users/USER/Downloads/hfe_sony_ta-f6b_service_en%20(1).pdf

I believe the vast majority don't care about distortion levels that are not audible. Some will be willing to pay more for lower distortions regardless up to a point.

For me the only reason is I want the best specs I can afford regardless of audibility, and I did pay more for my Purifi amp vs the Hypex amp. The difference in cost was about $300. If it was more than that, I would have opted for the Hypex. Both have THD below the threshold, and they do sound the same.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know about him, the lowest I have ever seen are those measured on ASR, the top two are the AHB2 and LA90.

Worse case only:
Benchmark AHB2 (about 0.003%/-90 dB 90 kHz bandwidth) and
Topping's LA90 (about 0.0007%/-103 dB 45 kHz bandwidth). Both are class AB amps.

Those %/-dB levels were for 90/45 kHz bandwidth, for 20 kHz, the numbers will obviously be a bit lower, especially if measured with the commonly used 1 kHz sine wave signal:
AHB2: 0.0003% at rated 190 W into 4 ohms, both channels driven
LA90: 0.00018% at 56 W into 4 ohms, both channel driven

Expect much better/lower numbers in the common 1 kHz rated output into 8 ohm test.

For a rough comparison, the best Yamaha measured there was the WXA50, better than the RX-A3080 and the CX-A5200, as well as the A-S801 measured by Gene:

Worst case:
about 0.17%, 22 kHz bandwidth

The popular 1 kHz test at rated output only:
55 W at 0.06%
50W at 0.003%

We both know such numbers have little practical meaning for most people in most cases, but they do tell us something about the "engineering excellence" and build quality of the products.

To some extent (and only to some extent), it is like you know a fully equipped Toyota Camry is practically as good as its comparable Lexus, and in a blind test (auto pilot mode engaged obviously) you may not be able to tell them apart, but you will still happily pay more for the Lexus version.

Oh, highfigh and I were talking about the lowest SPEAKERS THD, not electronics.

 

[Movie2099]

Guys, guys, guys. The only brand that you all need to know of is BOWERS AND WILKINS. The THD levels are like .0000000000000000000001%. The 800 Diamonds are THEE top speakers in the world. Period. No questions. Matched with AudioQuest cables, AudioQuest power conditioner and powered by McIntosh 2kw amps, It's almost as if whatever you're listening to, is right in your home! It's that good! Gene and his gizmo's that measure stuff, can't even keep up with how amazing and awesome this mega combo is. It's that good!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Guys, guys, guys. The only brand that you all need to know of is BOWERS AND WILKINS. The THD levels are like .0000000000000000000001%. The 800 Diamonds are THEE top speakers in the world. Period. No questions. Matched with AudioQuest cables, AudioQuest power conditioner and powered by McIntosh 2kw amps, It's almost as if whatever you're listening to, is right in your home! It's that good! Gene and his gizmo's that measure stuff, can't even keep up with how amazing and awesome this mega combo is. It's that good!

Mother.....

No just kidding.

I think most of us can agree on this: we want the best possible measurements, and we might be disappointed if we don't get the best possible measurements, but at the end of the day, we are willing to accept less-than-best possible measurements if we can have everything else like features, aesthetics, brands, warranty, support, price, etc.

 

[panteragstk]

When I buy more outboard amps, all I want is them to power anything I ask them too, but be efficient about it and last a long time.

Aesthetics can play a role now that my theater components aren't going to be hidden in a rack somewhere, but performance is my main goal.

 

[PENG]

Oh, highfigh and I were talking about the lowest SPEAKERS THD, not electronics.

Okay then, I guess based on published specs, a good example for the relatively more affordable speakers could be the US$35,000 KEF Blade:

Harmonic distortion 2nd and
3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<0.5% 40Hz - 100kHz
<0.2% 200Hz - 2kHz
<0.1% 2kHz - 20kHz

The US$225,000 KEF Muon doesn't have published harmonic distortions specs so it may or may not be lower:

B&W's flagship, the $70,000 Nautilus does not have published specs either.

Expensive exotic speakers such as Wilson Audio's, Focal's don't published much specs neither.

My guess is, KEF Blade's 0.1 to 0.5% are probably among the best regardless of price.

 

[Trell]

Okay then, I guess based on published specs, a good example for the relatively more affordable speakers could be the US$35,000 KEF Blade:

Harmonic distortion 2nd and
3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<0.5% 40Hz - 100kHz
<0.2% 200Hz - 2kHz
<0.1% 2kHz - 20kHz

The US$225,000 KEF Muon doesn't have published harmonic distortions specs so it may or may not be lower:

B&W's flagship, the $70,000 Nautilus does not have published specs either.

Expensive exotic speakers such as Wilson Audio's, Focal's don't published much specs neither.

My guess is, KEF Blade's 0.1 to 0.5% are probably among the best regardless of price.

So dealers can still push underperforming and overpriced audio devices. Even the best speakers in the world are worse.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay then, I guess based on published specs, a good example for the relatively more affordable speakers could be the US$35,000 KEF Blade:

Harmonic distortion 2nd and
3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<0.5% 40Hz - 100kHz
<0.2% 200Hz - 2kHz
<0.1% 2kHz - 20kHz

The US$225,000 KEF Muon doesn't have published harmonic distortions specs so it may or may not be lower:

B&W's flagship, the $70,000 Nautilus does not have published specs either.

Expensive exotic speakers such as Wilson Audio's, Focal's don't published much specs neither.

My guess is, KEF Blade's 0.1 to 0.5% are probably among the best regardless of price.

That does it, I'm getting some Blades.

Is there a way to compare this to electronics since electronics are THD+N and speakers are just THD?

The worst AVR (like $300 MSRP Yamaha) THD+N at 1kHz I've seen is like 0.03% (Sound and Vision).

 

[PENG]

That does it, I'm getting some Blades.

Is there a way to compare this to electronics since electronics are THD+N and speakers are just THD?

The worst AVR (like $300 MSRP Yamaha) THD+N at 1kHz I've seen is like 0.03% (Sound and Vision).

And the $35K Blade THD at 2kHz is 0.2%.

Sarcasm and jokes aside, the Blade One (the origin big one) was the best sounding speakers I have ever heard in a dealer's room. No subs needed imo but I think for you, at least one 18" sub will be needed to help those speakers.

I know THD>0.5% or even 1% would bother me, but I don't like any kind of noise. When I downgraded from my $3,000 Marantz AV8801 to the Denon AVR-X4400H, I was happy to "hear" the quietness of the Denon.

But no, I am not aware of speakers prone to noise. Also, speakers harmonic structures are quite different. They typically are mainly 2nd, 3rd harmonics, may be a little bit of 4th and 5th. So I understand speaker's harmonic distortions are far less offensive then amplifiers.

Since I know KEF speakers (the midrange and up models) in general have relatively low distortions so I will use the R3 as an example, the Blade will most likely be much better:

KEF R3 Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

See that the 4th and 5th harmonics were vanishingly low, well below 0.5%!

Keep in mind this is Amir's bench test using high quality instruments. If you use an amplifier that has 0.5% THD and if a significant % of that are the higher order 5th, 7th, 9th harmonics, the speaker will produce those and that's what you will hear. No one can hear the distortions of amplifiers, they hear them through their speakers.

Even if the amplifier's THD are only made up of the almost pleasing 2nd 3rd harmonics, since the speakers also produce 2nd and 3rd harmonics distortions, you will end up hearing the 4th, 8th, 9th, 15th harmonics etc., and it may not sound good to even you. (okay now I may be joking..).