Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[Danzilla31]

Yes I’m using all RSL Speakers. I’m using the CG23’s for the LCR and the CG3s for the two surrounds.

CG23M 5.1 Home Theater Speaker System - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

(I have their 4 Atmos but I’m not able to test those out until I can cut holes in the ceiling)

Thanks for the feedback, I will change all of the speakers except for the sub, to 80 Hz. I will leave the sub alone at 120 Hz. I thought I read something in the manual or saw something online about setting the sub for 80 Hz to 120 Hz, but maybe I was mistaken. I’m still trying to learn as I go and this is why I ask so many questions.

RSL CG4,CG24 and Speedwoofer 10 Loudspeaker System Review

by Theo Nicolakis — August 11, 2015

This is the review you need to look up here on audioholics. The Cg4 lineup is very similar to the Cg3 he explains where to set the crossovers in that review 80 hz is too low

 

[Rylan]

I'd just not go below the suggested xover for now. No particular content to worry about in that range for an Atmos speaker vs sub (unless the sub is perhaps limited in upper frequencies....not a concern with mine particularly).

ps I would analyze how I did the setup, and make sure that was optimized first.

the atmos came in at 200Hz but I changed them to 100. Maybe I should go back to 200? It was getting things wrong though because the xover for the bed layer speakers was at 40hz and i changed them to 90

 

[Danzilla31]

I had attached the wrong picture. This is what I meant to send

Okay the LPF of LFE needs to go back up to 120hz don't ever touch that it should never go below 120hz that's a feature that should never have been given to us consumers. I'll explain more why later but you're killing any bass above 80hz in your subwoofer channel. LPF of LFE needs to always be set to the highest it can go which is 120hz

 

[Danzilla31]

the atmos came in at 200Hz but I changed them to 100. Maybe I should go back to 200? It was getting things wrong though because the xover for the bed layer speakers was at 40hz and i changed them to 90

I had my C34e's set at 100hz that should be fine.

The rest of the speakers should be at 100 to 110hz as well the LPF of LFE should be at 120hz

 

[lovinthehd]

the atmos came in at 200Hz but I changed them to 100. Maybe I should go back to 200? It was getting things wrong though because the xover for the bed layer speakers was at 40hz and i changed them to 90

While the lack of eq for the gap in frequencies may be inconsequential, hard to know without measurement; it's a potential for differences.

Raising crossovers is fine in terms of the Audyssey eq range, it's below the suggested point things can be "uncovered". Audyssey generally suggests starting at 80hz for xover, it's Denon thinking they might be insulting your "larger" speakers rather than better crossover points.

 

[Danzilla31]

the atmos came in at 200Hz but I changed them to 100. Maybe I should go back to 200? It was getting things wrong though because the xover for the bed layer speakers was at 40hz and i changed them to 90

Those RSL's designed for a lot of output but only if they are crossed over at or above 100hz and you let the subs take over below that point

 

[Rylan]

The Onkyo didn’t give me an option to set small
Or large speakers. If it had, I would’ve set them all to small. I’m actually looking for more to trying out the Denon ones that arrives in store. I should have it by Monday of next week.

I will attach a video where @gene specifically reviewed the CG3 RSL Speakers. Start watching at min 3:00, he says if he was doing one sub from RSL, he would cross it over at 80 Hz and if he was to add a second sub, he would then go up to 100 Hz. I’m not saying anyone’s opinion is wrong here, I’m just trying to make sense of what really is the best opinion and why xx Hz is the number to go with

 

[lovinthehd]

Those RSL's designed for a lot of output but only if they are crossed over at or above 100hz and you let the subs take over below that point

In this vein I'd at least analyze your Audyssey mic setup and speaker positioning... your speakers as placed could be an issue. Hard to know so far.

The Onkyo didn’t give me an option to set small
Or large speakers. If it had, I would’ve set them all to small. I’m actually looking for more to trying out the Denon ones that arrives in store. I should have it by Monday of next week.

I will attach a video where @gene specifically reviewed the CG3 RSL Speakers. Start watching at min 3:00, he says if he was doing one sub from RSL, he would cross it over at 80 Hz and if he was to add a second sub, he would then go up to 100 Hz. I’m not saying anyone’s opinion is wrong here, I’m just trying to make sense of what really is the best opinion and why xx Hz is the number to go with

Onkyo generally in speaker setup in my experience calls a speaker either full range or set as a crossover....what does your speaker setup say?

 

[Danzilla31]

The Onkyo didn’t give me an option to set small
Or large speakers. If it had, I would’ve set them all to small. I’m actually looking for more to trying out the Denon ones that arrives in store. I should have it by Monday of next week.

I will attach a video where @gene specifically reviewed the CG3 RSL Speakers. Start watching at min 3:00, he says if he was doing one sub from RSL, he would cross it over at 80 Hz and if he was to add a second sub, he would then go up to 100 Hz. I’m not saying anyone’s opinion is wrong here, I’m just trying to make sense of what really is the best opinion and why xx Hz is the number to go with

All I can say is in the review done by Theo RSL themselves told him the best crossover is between 90 to 110hz. Not to go below. The CG3 lineup is the exact same size as the CG4 just not quiet as good as the CG4's were.

I think Gene may be recommending the 80 hz crossover due to crossing over higher then 80 hz can cause the sub to be more localized

And also the speedsoofer sub may be running out of output by itself at 100hz or above but that won't be an issue with 2 subs due to the extra output that using dual subs gives you

RSL recommends 90 to 110hz which makes sense since these speakers have 4 inch woofers. They're not built to play low in the bass section not with those woofers.

I'd keep the floor level speakers at 90hz and the C34e in ceiling at 90 to 100hz as well

 

[Rylan]

In this vein I'd at least analyze your Audyssey mic setup and speaker positioning... your speakers as placed could be an issue. Hard to know so far.

Onkyo generally in speaker setup in my experience calls a speaker either full range or set as a crossover....what does your speaker setup say?

Not seeing it. And this Onkyo does not have Audussey, only this AccuEQ and Dirac (which I can’t get to work unfortunately)

 

[lovinthehd]

Not seeing it. And this Onkyo does not have Audussey, only this AccuEQ and Dirac (which I can’t get to work unfortunately)

Yes, Audyssey has been long gone from the Onkyo/Integra brands, and current AccuEQ alone seems quite limited, better apparently in combination with Dirac. In any case not sure where you expect things to go otoh

 

[Rylan]

Yes, Audyssey has been long gone from the Onkyo/Integra brands, and current AccuEQ alone seems quite limited, better apparently in combination with Dirac. In any case not sure where you expect things to go otoh

I guess I was excited to give Dirac a try, just not sure if I’ll be able to get it working before I potentially return in. I know i haven’t tried the Denon 4700 yet, but I feel I’m leaning towards the Denon still based upon the discussion in this thread. I still have 23 days before I have to return either AVR

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess I was excited to give Dirac a try, just not sure if I’ll be able to get it working before I potentially return in. I know i haven’t tried the Denon 4700 yet, but I feel I’m leaning towards the Denon still based upon the discussion in this thread. I still have 23 days before I have to return either AVR

Either way it can be hard to compare well. I would experiment with all possible tweaks within each's dsp package and see if there's anything particular preferable.

 

[PENG]

the atmos came in at 200Hz but I changed them to 100. Maybe I should go back to 200? It was getting things wrong though because the xover for the bed layer speakers was at 40hz and i changed them to 90

Based on the specs of that speaker, I am not too surprised Onkyo set it to 200 Hz. That does look a little high but probably not by much. Manufacturer's 70 Hz -30 edit: meant to say -3 dB is most likely on the optimistic side, or exaggerated by assuming a lot of room gain. Being ceiling speakers it may depend more on the placement, my Polk audio Atmost speakers have similar specs to your RSL's, may be a few dB weaker at 70 Hz, but the crossover set by Audyssey and AARC are 30 to 40 Hz difference between the front and back speakers, identical way of mounting, just different placements.

My suggestion is, go in between, so instead of 100 Hz, try 150 Hz that may be closer to what they should be set at. Then when you run Audyssey, see what they were set at and that should be closer to being correct.

For sound quality comparison though, you should do you first test in stereo direct mode, then stereo with RC on. In each case, also try to limit the RC range to below 5,000 Hz, 300 Hz even better. Unfortunately with Audyssey, you have to buy the $20 App to do that.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Okay the LPF of LFE needs to go back up to 120hz don't ever touch that it should never go below 120hz that's a feature that should never have been given to us consumers. I'll explain more why later but you're killing any bass above 80hz in your subwoofer channel. LPF of LFE needs to always be set to the highest it can go which is 120hz

I agree it should go back up to 120. I’ll elaborate for the OP so this small clarification is aimed at him. The only way he’s “killing” bass is not in the subwoofer channel, and I think the verbiage is a little confusing and should be expanded a little, since it’s a small frequency range that might not get much content based on the individual soundtrack, and is only related to .1, and not any bass below XO points.
What the subwoofer is responsible for playing back is twofold. One, it plays all of the redirected bass below the XO points of the other speakers. Two, it plays the .1 LFE channel that’s encoded into movies. (This specific channel carries content from 1-120hz and the LPF just sets the ceiling of that content.)
IE 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 etc. while they both are played by the subwoofer, they’re are NOT related. Music doesn’t have a .1 in it, only movies do.
The only time imo that it makes sense to lower the LPF of LFE is if there’s an issue with localization of the subwoofer.
Seems this is a movie centric system, but I thought some clearing of the water might be useful, even at the risk of being pedantic lol.
I also mentioned lowering the heights XO to 100hz. While I still that’s true, I failed to mention what you and @lovinthehd did about the lack of EQ between 100 and 200hz. Oopsies! @PENG might have the right idea in trying 150hz. And as much as I’d love to try Dirac, I think the denon will be a much better solution. Although I’ve seen a few people that love their RZ50’s.

I know you may not have any concept of this living in the great state of Texas. But it’s currently -7F with 22mph winds, and a wind chill factor between -30 and -40. I think I’ll com stay with you. Until about may!

 

[Rylan]

Based on the specs of that speaker, I am not too surprised Onkyo set it to 200 Hz. That does look a little high but probably not by much. Manufacturer's 70 Hz -30 dB is most likely on the optimistic side, or exaggerated by assuming a lot of room gain. Being ceiling speakers it may depend more on the placement, my Polk audio Atmost speakers have similar specs to your RSL's, may be a few dB weaker at 70 Hz, but the crossover set by Audyssey and AARC are 30 to 40 Hz difference between the front and back speakers, identical way of mounting, just different placements.

My suggestion is, go in between, so instead of 100 Hz, try 150 Hz that may be closer to what they should be set at. Then when you run Audyssey, see what they were set at and that should be closer to being correct.

For sound quality comparison though, you should do you first test in stereo direct mode, then stereo with RC on. In each case, also try to limit the RC range to below 5,000 Hz, 300 Hz even better. Unfortunately with Audyssey, you have to buy the $20 App to do that.

Thank you for those numbers. $20 isn’t too bad for an app I’ll potentially use often.

Does anyone know of a good video that really explains the basics of Hz and dB? I’m slowly starting to understand these numbers and how they work together, but a lot of it still goes over my head. I feel like I have a lot of great pieces already, but the few missing pieces keep it from making sense. I believe I’m understanding that hz is frequency, and dB is volume, but how they work together and how to adjust them is still foggy. The current understanding is when I set the crossover at xxHz, it’s only because I read that’s the number I’m supposed to use. As to understanding why it’s that number, that’s the information I don’t have or understand. In the calibration section where I can go + or - dB, that’s a bit limited for me as well. I’m excited to learn these things and I’ve already learned a lot, but I started with no knowledge and jumped in the deep end. So I’m learning from all different directions and some of the basics have even been missed. Everyone has been super helpful so far. @PENG, when you mention “Manufacturer's 70 Hz -30 dB is most likely on the optimistic side” that’s something I’m not understanding? When you say to move down from 200 to 150, that’s easy and I can adjust that number.

I think some of this will make a lot more sense as I go along and keep asking questions. The Audioholics videos I watched so far have been very helpful. If there are any other good beginners videos, please feel free to share. I started with a lot of the advanced videos and it looks like now I need to start working backwards. Haha

 

[Rylan]

I agree it should go back up to 120. I’ll elaborate for the OP so this small clarification is aimed at him. The only way he’s “killing” bass is not in the subwoofer channel, and I think the verbiage is a little confusing and should be expanded a little, since it’s a small frequency range that might not get much content based on the individual soundtrack, and is only related to .1, and not any bass below XO points.
What the subwoofer is responsible for playing back is twofold. One, it plays all of the redirected bass below the XO points of the other speakers. Two, it plays the .1 LFE channel that’s encoded into movies. (This specific channel carries content from 1-120hz and the LPF just sets the ceiling of that content.)
IE 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 etc. while they both are played by the subwoofer, they’re are NOT related. Music doesn’t have a .1 in it, only movies do.
The only time imo that it makes sense to lower the LPF of LFE is if there’s an issue with localization of the subwoofer.
Seems this is a movie centric system, but I thought some clearing of the water might be useful, even at the risk of being pedantic lol.
I also mentioned lowering the heights XO to 100hz. While I still that’s true, I failed to mention what you and @lovinthehd did about the lack of EQ between 100 and 200hz. Oopsies! @PENG might have the right idea in trying 150hz. And as much as I’d love to try Dirac, I think the denon will be a much better solution. Although I’ve seen a few people that love their RZ50’s.

I know you may not have any concept of this living in the great state of Texas. But it’s currently -7F with 22mph winds, and a wind chill factor between -30 and -40. I think I’ll com stay with you. Until about may!

Great info! Thank you for sharing. I’m in North Dakota and it’s a full on blizzard today. It’s -37 right now with the WCF and pushing -45 at times.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Great info! Thank you for sharing. I’m in North Dakota and it’s a full on blizzard today. It’s -37 right now with the WCF and pushing -45 at times.

Gross… I know I was definitely born in the wrong part of the world!!! lol

 

[Rylan]

I agree it should go back up to 120. I’ll elaborate for the OP so this small clarification is aimed at him. The only way he’s “killing” bass is not in the subwoofer channel, and I think the verbiage is a little confusing and should be expanded a little, since it’s a small frequency range that might not get much content based on the individual soundtrack, and is only related to .1, and not any bass below XO points.
What the subwoofer is responsible for playing back is twofold. One, it plays all of the redirected bass below the XO points of the other speakers. Two, it plays the .1 LFE channel that’s encoded into movies. (This specific channel carries content from 1-120hz and the LPF just sets the ceiling of that content.)
IE 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 etc. while they both are played by the subwoofer, they’re are NOT related. Music doesn’t have a .1 in it, only movies do.
The only time imo that it makes sense to lower the LPF of LFE is if there’s an issue with localization of the subwoofer.
Seems this is a movie centric system, but I thought some clearing of the water might be useful, even at the risk of being pedantic lol.
I also mentioned lowering the heights XO to 100hz. While I still that’s true, I failed to mention what you and @lovinthehd did about the lack of EQ between 100 and 200hz. Oopsies! @PENG might have the right idea in trying 150hz. And as much as I’d love to try Dirac, I think the denon will be a much better solution. Although I’ve seen a few people that love their RZ50’s.

I know you may not have any concept of this living in the great state of Texas. But it’s currently -7F with 22mph winds, and a wind chill factor between -30 and -40. I think I’ll com stay with you. Until about may!

I have this feeling I will like the Denon as well. Will see how that goes.
So I now have put the crossover on the sub back to 120Hz, and the Heights to 150Hz.
With the subwoofer at 120Hz and the subs volume knob sitting at about 1 o’clock (this was the position when I ran the AccuEQ), if I want to adjust the bass so I'm hearing a bit more, do I simply turn the volume dial on sub a bit higher? Or what’s the best way to adjust the bass?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thank you for those numbers. $20 isn’t too bad for an app I’ll potentially use often.

Does anyone know of a good video that really explains the basics of Hz and dB? I’m slowly starting to understand these numbers and how they work together, but a lot of it still goes over my head. I feel like I have a lot of great pieces already, but the few missing pieces keep it from making sense. I believe I’m understanding that hz is frequency, and dB is volume, but how they work together and how to adjust them is still foggy. The current understanding is when I set the crossover at xxHz, it’s only because I read that’s the number I’m supposed to use. As to understanding why it’s that number, that’s the information I don’t have or understand. In the calibration section where I can go + or - dB, that’s a bit limited for me as well. I’m excited to learn these things and I’ve already learned a lot, but I started with no knowledge and jumped in the deep end. So I’m learning from all different directions and some of the basics have even been missed. Everyone has been super helpful so far. @PENG, when you mention “Manufacturer's 70 Hz -30 dB is most likely on the optimistic side” that’s something I’m not understanding? When you say to move down from 200 to 150, that’s easy and I can adjust that number.

I think some of this will make a lot more sense as I go along and keep asking questions. The Audioholics videos I watched so far have been very helpful. If there are any other good beginners videos, please feel free to share. I started with a lot of the advanced videos and it looks like now I need to start working backwards. Haha

I will try and touch a couple things.
So yes. Hz is frequency and means cycles per second. Europeans actually use CPC often to describe it. When peng wrote manufacturers -30 he actually meant -3. The -3db point is the point at which the speakers low end output is naturally reduced by 3 decibels due to its natural roll off point. Meaning it really can’t play any lower than that. So a -3db of 70hz means that it won’t safely play much lower than that.
Here’s a visual representation to help illustrate how the XO and LFE relationship works.

So when you’re “supposed” to set a XO point now you can see why. When you use 80hz for example, you’re sending bass content below that point to the subwoofer. That’s redirected bass and NOT related to the .1 LFE channel. Basically you’re shifting the balance between what the subwoofer plays and the speaker/s play. I kind of visualize a sliding scale.