2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked

[snakeeyes]

Well, you do get that sweet universal remote controller with the X4700. You know, the one they ripped away from the 3XXX models years ago along with some other features while still raising the price.

Not sure which remote is desired but sometimes Amazon has remotes for different models of AVRs. For my mid series yamahas I purchased the top end remotes. Think was $25 or $30 each. Allowed me to program the TV on off button. (Missing on the lower end remotes)

 

[dlaloum]

Even if the X4700 is several hundreds more expensive than the new X3800?

I know several people who chose the X3800 simply because it’s less expensive and newer.

But it is an interesting decision.

Right now a number of people have reported X4700's at discounted prices, below the MSRP of the X3800...

The X3800 gains over the X3700: Auro3D (which the X4700 has!) and additional sub outputs - Dirac is at additional price and unavailable for another 4 or 5 months.... and doesn't gain a lot over Audyssey!

X4700 gets the higher power output of the 4 series, loses out on 2 sub outputs (so you need to be satisfied with "only" 2 subs) - and loses out on Dirac "futureware"

If you consider Audyssey XT32 to be roughly on a par with Dirac Live (setting aside DLBC - which is currently circa 2 + years out!) - then an X4700 gives you everything you would gain from an X3800, while currently costing less.

 

[Danzilla31]

Right now a number of people have reported X4700's at discounted prices, below the MSRP of the X3800...

The X3800 gains over the X3700: Auro3D (which the X4700 has!) and additional sub outputs - Dirac is at additional price and unavailable for another 4 or 5 months.... and doesn't gain a lot over Audyssey!

X4700 gets the higher power output of the 4 series, loses out on 2 sub outputs (so you need to be satisfied with "only" 2 subs) - and loses out on Dirac "futureware"

If you consider Audyssey XT32 to be roughly on a par with Dirac Live (setting aside DLBC - which is currently circa 2 + years out!) - then an X4700 gives you everything you would gain from an X3800, while currently costing less.

We're also assuming that Dirac Live and DLBC not only will be implemented on time but also bug free and without any issues.

Denon and Marantz are solid on there releases but this is the first time they will be rolling this out. Hope they can pull it off

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Right now a number of people have reported X4700's at discounted prices, below the MSRP of the X3800...

The X3800 gains over the X3700: Auro3D (which the X4700 has!) and additional sub outputs - Dirac is at additional price and unavailable for another 4 or 5 months.... and doesn't gain a lot over Audyssey!

X4700 gets the higher power output of the 4 series, loses out on 2 sub outputs (so you need to be satisfied with "only" 2 subs) - and loses out on Dirac "futureware"

If you consider Audyssey XT32 to be roughly on a par with Dirac Live (setting aside DLBC - which is currently circa 2 + years out!) - then an X4700 gives you everything you would gain from an X3800, while currently costing less.

I can see the case for buying the X4700 if it is less expensive than the X3800. Cost is often the salient factor.

 

[Trebdp83]

It's no small thing for some that the X3800H has NO ports for analog video devices. Many new TVs do not have analog video input ports and many dropped the breakout cable ports. So, those connecting composite or component video equipped devices would need the ports available on the X4700H. Unfortunately, Denon is no longer offering 7.1 analog input ports on anything but the X8500H and I don't believe it will get a Dirac update. So, those wanting all of the latest and greatest as well as all of the old analog ports including 7.1 EXT. IN might have a look at the Marantz Cinema 40. Yes, it does look like a robot with big antenna ears that is frowning while wearing a clown nose.

 

[mtrot]

No, it isn't ... but the price band it is trying to occupy in the market, is the one previously held by the X3700.

Denon marketing ( and their retail outlets/supporters) - will therefore logically try to justify the position of the X2800... and of course the X3800 now priced around the old X4700 price bracket.... The flagship "A" models from D&M justify their price on performance, and hand built traditional "Tank" values.... I remain unconvinced about the rest of the range - and the X2800 is a prime example, more money for less performance.

The X4700 is looking like great value at the moment! (get them while their still available!)

I just did last week!

 

[mtrot]

Right now a number of people have reported X4700's at discounted prices, below the MSRP of the X3800...

The X3800 gains over the X3700: Auro3D (which the X4700 has!) and additional sub outputs - Dirac is at additional price and unavailable for another 4 or 5 months.... and doesn't gain a lot over Audyssey!

X4700 gets the higher power output of the 4 series, loses out on 2 sub outputs (so you need to be satisfied with "only" 2 subs) - and loses out on Dirac "futureware"

If you consider Audyssey XT32 to be roughly on a par with Dirac Live (setting aside DLBC - which is currently circa 2 + years out!) - then an X4700 gives you everything you would gain from an X3800, while currently costing less.

And also has the front panel HDMI input, which the new models do not.

 

[mtrot]

That is understandable, not too many knows amp assign FL/FR to pre out is the same as preamp mode for those two channels, electrically speaking. The only difference is, in preamp mode, since none of the internal amp channels are used, the unit will automatically engage ECO mode. The manual does not cover that but iirc, owners, and in one of more of those Youtube video by Gene, and/or Denon (again just iirc so don't quote me on that..) had mentioned it.

If you have questions on how to assign FL/FR to pre out to disconnect those two internal amps, you can try contacting Steve Dallas. I have been doing this for a few years now but mine is X4400H so the menu will look slightly different.

Below is link to his screenshots:
Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated) | Page 66 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The trick is, you have to select 11.1 mode in order to choose the FL/FR to pre out option, but once that's done, you can go back to the speaker menu to make changes back to your specific speaker configuration.

Thanks again. I installed my 4700 today and set it up pretty much like I had my 5200. Here is a pic of how I have set the assign mode of my 4700. The Pre-out shows "Front". Does that mean that the internal front L/R channel amps are not getting a signal from the 4700 and only the pre-outs carry signal? I didn't hear any change in the sound when I set that setting to "Front", but the external amp was already connected and playing. I also used the Speaker Config screen to select my 5.1 channels.

So far, I can't tell any difference from the sound of my 5200, but I have not yet cranked up a Blu-ray movie, except, of course, that my front L channel now works!

 

[PENG]

Thanks again. I installed my 4700 today and set it up pretty much like I had my 5200. Here is a pic of how I have set the assign mode of my 4700. The Pre-out shows "Front". Does that mean that the internal front L/R channel amps are not getting a signal from the 4700 and only the pre-outs carry signal? I didn't hear any change in the sound when I set that setting to "Front", but the external amp was already connected and playing. I also used the Speaker Config screen to select my 5.1 channels.

View attachment 58428

So far, I can't tell any difference from the sound of my 5200, but I have not yet cranked up a Blu-ray movie, except, of course, that my front L channel now works!

That is correct, the front L/R channel power amps will not get any signal when you assigned it to pre outs. You won't hear any "change in sound" because the pre out signal will not change whether it is connected to the internal power amps or not, unless you push output level of say 3 V or higher when it will distort enough to the point it exceeds the threshold of audibility.

As I mentioned before, Amir's use of the wording "clips at 1.4 V......" is misleading because at that point it would be the internal power amps that clips, the pre out will not clip until it reaches a much higher voltage. Amir insisted on calling the pre out clip at 1.4 V because he picked the point when distortions started to increase quickly. That makes no sense, and you can see it his own plotted SINAD vs output level graphs or Denon's own internal test graphs like the one below that I copied from their recent video on the X3800H.

Notice that Denon use the word "P.AMP" clipping level 1.41 V", that is consistent with Amir's measurements but by P.AMP, I think Denon means, correctly, that at that pre out output level, the power amp would be clipping not the pre out as you can see in the graph, distortions rise quickly for a little while and then it levels off, only until >3V that it rises again and this time it keep rising rapidly reaching about 1% THD at 4 V.

On the other graph that is for the pre-amp mode, Denon use the wording pre out clipping (not P.AMP clipping like the former) level 3.75 V. That makes sense. I hope this helps explaining the difference in distortions between the internal amps disconnected vs connected a little clearer.

 

[PENG]

There is no indication that the pre-amps can't drive any power amp to max output and it looks like Denon just decided to optimize for max SINAD in the lower range where most people will spend more time.

I am not sure what your point really is about "..can't drive any power amp to max output..". "Any"? It certainly can drive many commonly used power amps such as the 200 W Monolith's and many other amps! Regardless, he has no way of knowing what kind of power amps people will use with their AVR, but he provided the graph of SINAD vs output level for up to 2 V, that's pretty typical for most reviewers including Gene who also mentioned that 2 V is what one should aim for, higher is better obviously but 2 V can drive class AB amps that typically have gains around 28 to 30 dB gain to 315 (28 dB gain) to 500 W (30 dB gain) 8 ohms.

If you want to see the SINAD (harmonic distortions and noise) or IMD (intermodulation distortions) in the lower output range, all you have to do is to read the graphs included in his measurements, such as the following:

 

[lovinthehd]

I am not sure what your point really is about "..can't drive any power amp to max output..". "Any"? It certainly can drive many commonly used power amps such as the 200 W Monolith's and many other amps! Regardless, he has no way of knowing what kind of power amps people will use with their AVR, but he provided the graph of SINAD vs output level for up to 2 V, that's pretty typical for most reviewers including Gene who also mentioned that 2 V is what one should aim for, higher is better obviously but 2 V can drive class AB amps that typically have gains around 28 to 30 dB gain to 315 (28 dB gain) to 500 W (30 dB gain) 8 ohms.

If you want to see the SINAD (harmonic distortions and noise) or IMD (intermodulation distortions) in the lower output range, all you have to do is to read the graphs included in his measurements, such as the following:

View attachment 58431

View attachment 58432

In the second graph the 3800 is worse than the 3800?

 

[mtrot]

In the second graph the 3800 is worse than the 3800?

Yeah, I saw that and assumed it was a typo. Assumed he meant 3700.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, I saw that and assumed it was a typo. Assumed he meant 3700.

Amir can be sloppy like that, usually gets straightened out after the associated thread gets going....

 

[dlaloum]

I am not sure what your point really is about "..can't drive any power amp to max output..". "Any"? It certainly can drive many commonly used power amps such as the 200 W Monolith's and many other amps! Regardless, he has no way of knowing what kind of power amps people will use with their AVR, but he provided the graph of SINAD vs output level for up to 2 V, that's pretty typical for most reviewers including Gene who also mentioned that 2 V is what one should aim for, higher is better obviously but 2 V can drive class AB amps that typically have gains around 28 to 30 dB gain to 315 (28 dB gain) to 500 W (30 dB gain) 8 ohms.

If you want to see the SINAD (harmonic distortions and noise) or IMD (intermodulation distortions) in the lower output range, all you have to do is to read the graphs included in his measurements, such as the following:

View attachment 58431

View attachment 58432

My Vintage Quad 606 requires only 500mV (0.5V) for max output (135W) - it is one of the most sensitive power amps around - a bit of an edge case, but yeah a huge exageration.

My Crown XLS amps, designed for pro use, are rated for max out @ 1.4V

I would hazard a suggestion that most power amps will achieve max output with 1.4V or less - those that are low gain and require more, are the exception rather than the rule - they just happen to be among the currently fashionable amps.

 

[mtrot]

My Vintage Quad 606 requires only 500mV (0.5V) for max output (135V) - it is one of the most sensitive power amps around - a bit of an edge case, but yeah a huge exageration.

My Crown XLS amps, designed for pro use, are rated for max out @ 1.4V

I would hazard a suggestion that most power amps will achieve max output with 1.4V or less - those that are low gain and require more, are the exception rather than the rule - they just happen to be among the currently fashionable amps.

My Krell is 2.7Vrms.

 

[lovinthehd]

My Krell is 2.7Vrms.

Curious, what gain is the Krell?

 

[mtrot]

Curious, what gain is the Krell?

It's only 26.4 dB, but I'm told it's enough for my purposes.

 

[PENG]

It's only 26.4 dB, but I'm told it's enough for my purposes.

Might have been me who told you that haha..

Again, it is better to use gain instead of input sensitivity. If gain is used, it forced people who don't know about it to ask question. If input sensitivity is used, it may mislead some people, or even a lot of people based on evidence I have seen over the years on forums.

Example 1: I have seen post(s) when one person argue why there is no point for ASR to measure pre out at 2 V, using his example that his Paraound power amp's sensitivity is only 1 V so he thought he only needed 1 V?

Example 2: Your Krell amp's input sensitivity is 2.71 V, that seems high right, yet that's for it to output 400 W 8 ohms, or 800 W 4 ohms. So if you are using it to drive speakers rated 4 ohms nominal, you will need only 1.9 V for the amp to output 400 W and that may be the maximum your speakers can handle anyway.

Nothing wrong with input sensitivity, just that because it is given in voltage, so a lot of people think they understand what it means, and could get misled. Few are smart enough to ask questions though, fortunately. If Krell only provided the gain, then since more people don't understand it enough, more would ask for clarification before they make purchase decision.

 

[Chachy]

PENG, I do have a Parasound A23+ and 2125v2 which I was going to use with the AVR-X4800H so as per your example 1, I see that on Parasound’s website it does show the 1V for 28.28v at 8ohms and a gain of 29db. So what does that mean/ how does it look for me using these amps with the 4800 And it’s likely SINAD similar to the 3800? Using Monitor Audio Silver 7th gen 100’s for fronts(A23+) and 250 center channel(2125v2 biamped). Thanks for any information your can provide.

 

[PENG]

PENG, I do have a Parasound A23+ and 2125v2 which I was going to use with the AVR-X4800H so as per your example 1, I see that on Parasound’s website it does show the 1V for 28.28v at 8ohms and a gain of 29db. So what does that mean/ how does it look for me using these amps with the 4800 And it’s likely SINAD similar to the 3800? Using Monitor Audio Silver 7th gen 100’s for fronts(A23+) and 250 center channel(2125v2 biamped). Thanks for any information your can provide.

The A23+ and 2125v2 input sensitivity specs are clearly stated. My point was that some people seemed to think the 1 V, 28.28V, 8 ohms mean they only need 1 V pre out voltage from their AVR or AVP, and that is not the case.

1 V, for 28.28V at 8 ohms mean if you connect it to a pre out (preamp output) voltage of 1 V, you will get 28.28 V out of the power amp.

The power formula for a resistor load is P = VI, or P = I² X R, or = V² / R

so for 28.28 V, 8 ohm, Power output = 28.28X28.28/8 = about 100 W.

Using the A23+ as an example, the amp is rated 160 W into 8 ohms, that means an input of 1 V will not drive it to output 160 W, but only 100 W.

To reach the A23+ full rated 160 W output, you will need about 1.3 V. (see the spreadsheet table I attached in my earlier post on page 11)

2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked | Page 11 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

The X4800H should perform about the same as the X3800H because it has the same preamp vol and dac ICs and the X3700H and X4700H did perform the same based on ASR's previous bench tests.

Those AVR's preamp/dac can output well above 3 V so any of them can drive your Parasound power amps to their rated output without any issues.

About your SINAD question, my suggestion is that people should not focus on just one single point, such as SINAD (or THD+N) at 2 V. That would be like saying your speaker's impedance is 8 ohm, when in fact such values are not one single fixed or constant value. They tend to always vary with another parameter.

So if you can find the curve, that's what you should focus on.

I posted the ASR provided curve before, here it is for you again:
If you have question about the curve, just ask..