2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe like old A/B speaker selectors using same amps.....not really intended for simultaneous use.
 
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Chachy

Enthusiast
They are both plugged into the HDMI ports but not both powered on. Even just connected to the ports but turned off this happens.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
They are both plugged into the HDMI ports but not both powered on. Even just connected to the ports but turned off this happens.
Thanks....but wonder if the display(s) are in standby or simply disconnected from power would make a difference.
 
ban25

ban25

Audiophyte
It's no small thing for some that the X3800H has NO ports for analog video devices. Many new TVs do not have analog video input ports and many dropped the breakout cable ports. So, those connecting composite or component video equipped devices would need the ports available on the X4700H. Unfortunately, Denon is no longer offering 7.1 analog input ports on anything but the X8500H and I don't believe it will get a Dirac update. So, those wanting all of the latest and greatest as well as all of the old analog ports including 7.1 EXT. IN might have a look at the Marantz Cinema 40. Yes, it does look like a robot with big antenna ears that is frowning while wearing a clown nose.:p
For folks looking for analog to HDMI upscaling at high quality and low latency, including integer scaling to 1440p, I can highly recommend the RetroTINK 5X:


It's quite a bit better than the analog from my X3700H. As for me, I am considering the Cinema 40 in order to go to full 8K/4K120 HDMI (mostly 4K120).
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, that is what I meant, Left and Right. I have the 8000f II for left and right and I agree that the 98dB is probably a little high. ;)
Even 92 dB/1V/m sensitivity is quite high, at 9 ft from those Klipsch speakers, 100 W will still get you 103 dB with just 1 speaker playing or above reference level is you assume 3 dB room gain. Again, that's for just 1 single speaker.

Your pre out voltage will not likely exceed 1 V even during those 20 dB peaks in some movies, listening at reference level that is too loud for probably 99% of humans, even old dogs that have hearing loss.
 
R

rbdan

Enthusiast
Even 92 dB/1V/m sensitivity is quite high, at 9 ft from those Klipsch speakers, 100 W will still get you 103 dB with just 1 speaker playing or above reference level is you assume 3 dB room gain. Again, that's for just 1 single speaker.

Your pre out voltage will not likely exceed 1 V even during those 20 dB peaks in some movies, listening at reference level that is too loud for probably 99% of humans, even old dogs that have hearing loss.
Good info!

I rarely listen at reference level for short periods of time. My Apple Watch will nag me if I do. :)

Thanks again for the info. Now back to waiting for my 4800 to ship. :(
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I had contacted Parasound and the rep said just to make sure there was enough voltage out of the pre outs to ensure a high enough volume. He said.

SINAD (signal to noise and distortion) doesn't matter much matching components. It sounds like the new Denon has a little bit worse SINAD specs. Those specs are still so low that it is doubtful you could actually hear a difference. Both Parasound amps will be a great match and offer a significant improvement over the Denon's onboard amps.

The most important spec would be the voltage output from the Denon preamp outputs. I would want to see at least 1V, above 2V would be better, otherwise you may not get enough volume level.
I have already explained why you can't just say 1 V, or 2 V is required or enough, it depends on many factors. If the rep was making a general statement then he should have said at least 2 V, then it will at least covers all of the power amps they sell. Denon's rep is simply reading what the manual says about the 1.2 V. They generally don't have much technical knowledge, though if you insist, and if they let you communicate with their "engineers"/2nd line technical support staff, then it is okay. Some or most of those people (second line or above..) should be knowledgeable enough to ask technical questions.
 
C

Chachy

Enthusiast
Hi PENG, i had seen your previous responses on how it’s a variable. Just showing how the manufacturers seem to put out conflicting information or incomplete information on their products. Thanks!


Still thinking of getting the 8500 too for the better power output and the better internals overall but have been told I will likely have the same problem with having two displays connected. Could sell the Parasound amplifiers and just use the 8500 power. 4800 vs 8500. Is Dirac worth it on the 4800? Also could Denon potentially switch to a better DAC or back to AKM in 2023 if they became available the same way they “downgraded” before. Could be stuck with a Rev 1 4800.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Still thinking of getting the 8500 too for the better power output and the better internals overall but have been told I will likely have the same problem with having two displays connected. Could sell the Parasound amplifiers and just use the 8500 power. 4800 vs 8500. Is Dirac worth it on the 4800? Also could Denon potentially switch to a better DAC or back to AKM in 2023 if they became available the same way they “downgraded” before. Could be stuck with a Rev 1 4800.
Anything is possible, so yes it is possible if by that time there are no longer shortages of the AKM ICs. Dirac may be worth it if you can get it now but that's now the case. Also, some people don't want to use room correction for frequencies higher than 300 Hz, for those people Audyssey can be just as good if you use the $20 phone App or the $200 PC based App to do a few things and tweak a little. It is also a subjective thing to some extent.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Anything is possible, so yes it is possible if by that time there are no longer shortages of the AKM ICs. Dirac may be worth it if you can get it now but that's now the case. Also, some people don't want to use room correction for frequencies higher than 300 Hz, for those people Audyssey can be just as good if you use the $20 phone App or the $200 PC based App to do a few things and tweak a little. It is also a subjective thing to some extent.
Can Dirac Live, without DLBC, calibrate multiple subwoofers similar to Audyssey XT32?
 
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dlaloum

Audioholic
Good info!

I rarely listen at reference level for short periods of time. My Apple Watch will nag me if I do. :)

Thanks again for the info. Now back to waiting for my 4800 to ship. :(
Reference level shmeference level.... I have the house to myself for a couple of days... gives me a chance to enjoy some movies at my preferred levels (let her rip... so to speak) - and I end up at ... 72db average based on my old school Radio Shack SPL meter.

That puts peaks at 92db (allowing 20db as per THX standard practice)

For your speakers - that would be achieved with 1W @ 1m....
4W @ 2m, and 2W @ 2m with 2 speakers

With your speakers (assuming 8ohm) - you can hit dynamic peaks with under 5W of power.... you are unlikely to ever be power constrained !! (assuming your preferred average level is similar to mine)
 
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dlaloum

Audioholic
Even 92 dB/1V/m sensitivity is quite high, at 9 ft from those Klipsch speakers, 100 W will still get you 103 dB with just 1 speaker playing or above reference level is you assume 3 dB room gain. Again, that's for just 1 single speaker.

Your pre out voltage will not likely exceed 1 V even during those 20 dB peaks in some movies, listening at reference level that is too loud for probably 99% of humans, even old dogs that have hearing loss.
@ 92db SPL/wm Should get you well over the 105db THX standard with 100W...

Keeping in mind that 2 speakers in stereo will boost output 3db

By my back of the envelope calcs - 64W should produce 104db at a 3m (9ft) MLP (with 2 speakers)

128W is needed for 107db... which the Denon should be able to produce for brief peaks. (which is all that would be needed at those eardrum shattering levels!)
 
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rbdan

Enthusiast
@ 92db SPL/wm Should get you well over the 105db THX standard with 100W...

Keeping in mind that 2 speakers in stereo will boost output 3db

By my back of the envelope calcs - 64W should produce 104db at a 3m (9ft) MLP (with 2 speakers)

128W is needed for 107db... which the Denon should be able to produce for brief peaks. (which is all that would be needed at those eardrum shattering levels!)
Thanks for the quick calculations! So that puts me at 1v or less for an SINAD of 92ish.

Thanks again.
 
B

beaRA

Audioholic Intern
I am not sure what your point really is about "..can't drive any power amp to max output..". "Any"? It certainly can drive many commonly used power amps such as the 200 W Monolith's and many other amps! Regardless, he has no way of knowing what kind of power amps people will use with their AVR, but he provided the graph of SINAD vs output level for up to 2 V, that's pretty typical for most reviewers including Gene who also mentioned that 2 V is what one should aim for, higher is better obviously but 2 V can drive class AB amps that typically have gains around 28 to 30 dB gain to 315 (28 dB gain) to 500 W (30 dB gain) 8 ohms.

If you want to see the SINAD (harmonic distortions and noise) or IMD (intermodulation distortions) in the lower output range, all you have to do is to read the graphs included in his measurements, such as the following:

View attachment 58431

View attachment 58432
I think you're agreeing with me. I was replying to someone implying the X3800H might not be able to drive lower gain amps. They were misinterpreting the measurements showing max SINAD at a lower voltage as meaning the pre-amp was incapable of higher voltages. Like you, I was pointing out that Amir's voltage sweep did not identify an upper limit to the pre-amp output as we are still ~87dB SINAD at the highest measured voltage.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I think you're agreeing with me. I was replying to someone implying the X3800H might not be able to drive lower gain amps. They were misinterpreting the measurements showing max SINAD at a lower voltage as meaning the pre-amp was incapable of higher voltages. Like you, I was pointing out that Amir's voltage sweep did not identify an upper limit to the pre-amp output as we are still ~87dB SINAD at the highest measured voltage.
Right! Please also remind him that pre out voltage will vary continuously with the music signal. For example, in my HT room, my Denon's pre out would be at below 0.3 V most of the time. You must have read that for a lot of home users, their amps would be cruising at only a few watts most of the time.

That's why even for AVRs such as the Anthem MRX520 and NAD T758V3 AVRs ASR measured with 50 to 60 dB SINAD, their owners could still love their sound quality, that could simply be that within the range of their preamp and power amp output range, SINADs were much higher, and would stay well below the threshold for them.

If he is not limited by his budget then obviously it is good to go with the highest pre out voltage at the highest possible SINAD, and same for power amps, go for the highest number one is willing to spend. Then one would not have to worry about anything, but..:)
 
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Chachy

Enthusiast
So if not using the 4800 with external amps the DAC SINAD doesn’t matter just the AVR SINAD numbers? What about like a sound character to different ones or anything? Like AKM vs TI? Sorry I am not very technically savvy here when it comes to these things. Could just sell my Parasound amps and use the internal Denon power.
 
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dlaloum

Audioholic
So if not using the 4800 with external amps the DAC SINAD doesn’t matter? What about like a sound character to different ones or anything? Like AKM vs TI? Sorry I am not very technically savvy here when it comes to these things. Could just sell my Parasound amps and use the internal Denon power.
All the double blind tests I have seen of DAC's have shown no discernible difference between them.

Basically modern DAC's (of the last 20 years or so) - have identically flat frequency responses, noise levels and distortion well below the threshold of audibility, and therefore to all intents and purposes perform identically.

Having said that - all DAC's have analogue circuits, wherein the output is then further handled in the analogue domain - and there can be differences there - as well as the interactions between DAC output and amp or preamp input - all of which is in the analogue domain... (so a DAC-chip may behave identically to other DAC-chips, but the DAC may behave differently to another DAC when paired with a specific preamp/amp... usually a sign of poorly designed analogue circuits, gain matching or load matching)

The TI chips have measurably higher noise and distortion than the AKM chips that were being used before - but the difference is well below the threshold of audibility.... hence it is rather academic!

Whether the Denon internal amps will suffice or the Parasound will be needed is more a function of your speakers... best answer to that, is to try them both out with your speakers... if there is no difference, then you can sell the Parasound.

(for me, with my AVR and Speakers, an external amp made a dramatic difference)
 
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Chachy

Enthusiast
Ok great. Thanks for the information. Very helpful. Sorry to keep bringing this DAC stuff up but had seen in the ASR forum after the 3800 review someone said if you aren’t using external amps the lower DAC performance was a non issue.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It's as much an issue basically as using the internal amps....either way it doesn't mean a lot.
 
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dlaloum

Audioholic
It's as much an issue basically as using the internal amps....either way it doesn't mean a lot.
Like I said - academic - it provides information as to the engineering rigour and hygiene that went into the design.... which is interesting, and tells you something about the care, and the margins built in by the designers (and may or may not mean something to you or other individuals) - but has no impact on the audible results.

So how much meaning acrues to it, depends on how much value you attach to that engineering.... sort of like buying a Leica Camera or a Mercedes S class ... there's not much they do, that cannot be achieved with much more plebeian cameras/cars.... but the engineering is superb...
 

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