2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked

[PENG]

Great guess! Gain for my amp is said to be 26.4dB. The amp's specs say input sensitivity is 2.71 Vrms. The amp has only XLR inputs on it, no rca's. So, I have to use adapters on the rca cables that connect my pre-amp to the power amp. The pre-amp has home theater bypass.

Is that 6500 used, warranty? Have you bought it yet? If not, I may have something to say about the pros and cons that may change your mind.

 

[dlaloum]

We both know many posters have in the past emphasized the importance of good performance at the lower output level, such as below 0.5 V for preamps and below 1 W for power amps, because that's the level amps operate for most users who cannot stand reference level. I don't fully agree with that sentiment, but I agree it is an important point to consider.

For someone like me who doesn't need to push pass 0.5 V very often, the much cheaper X3700H AVR will in fact have a cleaner preamp signal than the very well regarded Anthem AVM70! That's one of the point I tried to make that, it is much more useful, even critical in some cases, to compare the well scaled SINAD vs output voltage, than a SINAD vs a single point output voltage.

I am in violent agreement - the SINAD at the listening level most used (and where it is also most audible) - is the most important one - and that means when the output is between 0.1W and 2W (max)...

One of the concerns with specs - is that typically they pick the optimal SINAD point - which is at a level where it is well beyond usable power levels in my setup (I would be deaf, and my speakers would probably be going up in smoke!).

And there is the other aspect, the threshold of audibility - which with SINAD, is I would posit somewhere between 60 and 70....

(and that is without taking into consideration other variable such as the typical noise level in a normal home... which further limits the audibility level of SINAD)

The Denon's are remarkably "clean" - but then so are quite a few of their competitors...

I look forward to seeing a thorough going over of the new generation AVR's from D&M....

 

[PENG]

I am in violent agreement - the SINAD at the listening level most used (and where it is also most audible) - is the most important one - and that means when the output is between 0.1W and 2W (max)...

One of the concerns with specs - is that typically they pick the optimal SINAD point - which is at a level where it is well beyond usable power levels in my setup (I would be deaf, and my speakers would probably be going up in smoke!).

And there is the other aspect, the threshold of audibility - which with SINAD, is I would posit somewhere between 60 and 70....

(and that is without taking into consideration other variable such as the typical noise level in a normal home... which further limits the audibility level of SINAD)

The Denon's are remarkably "clean" - but then so are quite a few of their competitors...

I look forward to seeing a thorough going over of the new generation AVR's from D&M....

I think distortions are no longer a concern once you get pass the entry level gear. Amir sets a high bar for SINAD but he also often made attempts to emphasize that his aim for high SINAD>110 dB or so was about the so called engineering excellence, not about audibility. The new Denon's will likely have clean pre out signals too by our standards but they won't likely get on Amir's recommended list because of the PCM5102A IC whether people care of not.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think distortions are no longer a concern once you get pass the entry level gear. Amir sets a high bar for SINAD but he also often made attempts to emphasized that his aim for high SINAD>110 dB or so is about the so called engineering excellence, not about audibility. The new Denon's will likely have clean pre out signals too by our standards but they won't likely get on Amir's recommended list because of the PCM5102A IC whether people care of not.

I remember when S&V was still doing measurements. Even the cheap $200 AVR had THD+N of 0.01%.

 

[PENG]

I remember when S&V was still doing measurements. Even the cheap $200 AVR had THD+N of 0.01%.

They typically measured at 1 kHz so 0.01% is good as it likely would remain below 1% when measured for 20-20,000 Hz at rated output.

 

[Dave F]

Denon/Marantz first line customer reps typically give generic answers. Don't worry about the 1.2 V number, its not the maximum. Probably just a loosely defined nominal number based on 1.2 V output would push amps with 29 dB gain such as the AVR amps, to output about 140 W into 8 ohms.

Thank you PENG and others for helping me understand this topic! I've got a lot to learn and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

 

[mtrot]

Is that 6500 used, warranty? Have you bought it yet? If not, I may have something to say about the pros and cons that may change your mind.

Thanks much. The 6500 is used, and said to have always been used with separate amps for all channels driven. No, I have not bought it, and I'm all ears for any advice.

 

[PENG]

Thanks much. The 6500 is used, and said to have always been used with separate amps for all channels driven. No, I have not bought it, and I'm all ears for any advice.

The good stuff of the 6700 that the 6500 does not have:

- HDMI 2.1
- DTS:X Pro
- Preamp mode

The bad one (potentially, it depends..)

- Depending on the date of manufacturing, it may have the "down graded" DAC IC (from AK4458 to PCM5102A)

If you are going to use some but not all of the internal amps, you may be better off going with a AVR-X4500H, or the AVR-X4700H. The only things you may miss are the following:

- the useless gold-plated feature of most of the connectors
- made in Japan that doesn't affect specs and sound quality, it's a myth that made in Japan is better than made in Vietnam, or China as the same manufacturing process and quality control protocols must be followed.

The X4500H is better than the X6500H in one sense, that is if you use external amps that has gains less than the typical 28 to 29 dB, you have speakers with low sensitivity, you sit far, and love to listen loud, then you may benefit from cleaner pre out signal at higher output voltage such as >2 V, or 1.5 V is you have golden ears.

That's based on my logical thinking that the 6500 has 11 processing, and 11 channels of powering amps, you likely cannot assign the front left and right to pre out. The owner of the unit you are planning on buying can confirm that one way or another by taking a photo of the amp assign menu. Owner's manual does not cover that because it was a "cheat" that Gene found out, not an intended feature.

The X4700H adds the preamp mode.

The advantage of the 4700 and 6700 is of course, two years newer so you can rely on the warranty more.

The is a guy on ASR selling his 4700 at $1,000 iirc. Apparently he has not really used it much, and he explained the reason (can't remember what it is..). He also said his unit has the original AK4458 DAC IC.

My recommendation is, go with the X4700H, may even try the refurbished one Denon is selling, at apparently lower price than the X3800H. You probably can made a deal with some dealers too as it is not an outdated AVR. Unless you have a very good reason, the X6500H is really not a good idea, vs the 4700.

 

[mtrot]

The good stuff of the 6700 that the 6500 does not have:

- HDMI 2.1
- DTS:X Pro
- Preamp mode

The bad one (potentially, it depends..)

- Depending on the date of manufacturing, it may have the "down graded" DAC IC (from AK4458 to PCM5102A)

If you are going to use some but not all of the internal amps, you may be better off going with a AVR-X4500H, or the AVR-X4700H. The only things you may miss are the following:

- the useless gold-plated feature of most of the connectors
- made in Japan that doesn't affect specs and sound quality, it's a myth that made in Japan is better than made in Vietnam, or China as the same manufacturing process and quality control protocols must be followed.

The X4500H is better than the X6500H in one sense, that is if you use external amps that has gains less than the typical 28 to 29 dB, you have speakers with low sensitivity, you sit far, and love to listen loud, then you may benefit from cleaner pre out signal at higher output voltage such as >2 V, or 1.5 V is you have golden ears.

That's based on my logical thinking that the 6500 has 11 processing, and 11 channels of powering amps, you likely cannot assign the front left and right to pre out. The owner of the unit you are planning on buying can confirm that one way or another by taking a photo of the amp assign menu. Owner's manual does not cover that because it was a "cheat" that Gene found out, not an intended feature.

The X4700H adds the preamp mode.

The advantage of the 4700 and 6700 is of course, two years newer so you can rely on the warranty more.

The is a guy on ASR selling his 4700 at $1,000 iirc. Apparently he has not really used it much, and he explained the reason (can't remember what it is..). He also said his unit has the original AK4458 DAC IC.

My recommendation is, go with the X4700H, may even try the refurbished one Denon is selling, at apparently lower price than the X3800H. You probably can made a deal with some dealers too as it is not an outdated AVR. Unless you have a very good reason, the X6500H is really not a good idea, vs the 4700.

Excellent info, and thanks for taking the time to write this!

Yeah, had wanted the 6700 because its 140 wpc equals that of my AVR-X5200W. I was wanting to drive my center speaker with the AVR, if possible. Some people claim that their center speaker sounds more impressive with a higher wattage amplifier. And I did like that the 6700, like my 5200, is made in Japan.

But I'm told here that that the 125 wpc of the 4700/4500 is plenty of power for my setup. I sit ~10 feet from the speakers and my center speaker's sensitivity is rated at 88dB, and I don't really listen that loud.

I'm very interested in a pre-amp mode for my front L/R speakers, as I drive them with a Krell amplifier. BTW, its input sensitivity is 2.7Vrms, and it has 26.4dB of gain. Although I intended to drive the center speaker with the AVR, I do have an amp that I could use to drive the center speaker, if I can find room to place it.

Based on the comments of you and others here, it does not appear that I can justify paying some $1,300 more to get the 6700. As to 4500 vs 4700, it seems that the 4700 would be a better choice for me, because I want to do the preamp mode for at least the front L/R channels. I assume that if I buy a new 4700 at this point, it will have the downgraded DAC, but I don't know I would be able to hear any difference, given my moderate listening levels.

As to the 4700, Best Buy has it now for $149 off, and I have $155 in BB rewards, so it would be about $300 off. My reward points start expiring on Oct. 29, so I need to make a decision soon. As to the 4700 for sale on ASR, I would assume there would be no warranty, but that is a great price.

 

[PENG]

Excellent info, and thanks for taking the time to write this!

Yeah, had wanted the 6700 because its 140 wpc equals that of my AVR-X5200W. I was wanting to drive my center speaker with the AVR, if possible. Some people claim that their center speaker sounds more impressive with a higher wattage amplifier. And I did like that the 6700, like my 5200, is made in Japan.

But I'm told here that that the 125 wpc of the 4700/4500 is plenty of power for my setup. I sit ~10 feet from the speakers and my center speaker's sensitivity is rated at 88dB, and I don't really listen that loud.

I'm very interested in a pre-amp mode for my front L/R speakers, as I drive them with a Krell amplifier. BTW, its input sensitivity is 2.7Vrms, and it has 26.4dB of gain. Although I intended to drive the center speaker with the AVR, I do have an amp that I could use to drive the center speaker, if I can find room to place it.

Based on the comments of you and others here, it does not appear that I can justify paying some $1,300 more to get the 6700. As to 4500 vs 4700, it seems that the 4700 would be a better choice for me, because I want to do the preamp mode for at least the front L/R channels. I assume that if I buy a new 4700 at this point, it will have the downgraded DAC, but I don't know I would be able to hear any difference, given my moderate listening levels.

As to the 4700, Best Buy has it now for $149 off, and I have $155 in BB rewards, so it would be about $300 off. My reward points start expiring on Oct. 29, so I need to make a decision soon. As to the 4700 for sale on ASR, I would assume there would be no warranty, but that is a great price.

Yes, based on the info you have provided so far, you will do well with the 4700. 125 W and 140 W will give you less than 0.5 dB of difference, nothing to be concerned about.

If you are using the internal amps for some of the ambience channels such as the surrounds and heights then you cannot use preamp mode but you can still use the amp assign feature to disconnect the front L/R speakers so that the pre out for those two channels can have the lowest possible distortions for the Krell. Most people would not be able to hear a difference between those two DAC, though one has lower distortions on paper than the other.

Subjective reviews are anecdotal, but read it for fun, and here is one who compared it with his other AVR, the X6700H:

Denon AVR-X3800H is released. | Page 6 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Denon AVR-X3800H is released. | Page 7 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Here is a used 4700 for $1,000 I mentioned earlier, it has the original DAC:

AVC-X3800H vs AVC-X4700H | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[mtrot]

Yes, based on the info you have provided so far, you will do well with the 4700. 125 W and 140 W will give you less than 0.5 dB of difference, nothing to be concerned about.

If you are using the internal amps for some of the ambience channels such as the surrounds and heights then you cannot use preamp mode but you can still use the amp assign feature to disconnect the front L/R speakers so that the pre out for those two channels can have the lowest possible distortions for the Krell. Most people would not be able to hear a difference between those two DAC, though one has lower distortions on paper than the other.

Subjective reviews are anecdotal, but read it for fun, and here is one who compared it with his other AVR, the X6700H:

Denon AVR-X3800H is released. | Page 6 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Denon AVR-X3800H is released. | Page 7 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Here is a used 4700 for $1,000 I mentioned earlier, it has the original DAC:

AVC-X3800H vs AVC-X4700H | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Thanks again. That is all I'm looking for. I'm not so clear on all the terminology.

It looks like that 4700 on ASR is local pickup only in Phoenix.

I think I may just get the 4700 from BB while it is on sale, and I will have a three year mfg. warranty. I also have and use their Visa card, so I will get 5% Rewards dollars for the purchase.

 

[PENG]

Thanks again. That is all I'm looking for. I'm not so clear on all the terminology.

That is understandable, not too many knows amp assign FL/FR to pre out is the same as preamp mode for those two channels, electrically speaking. The only difference is, in preamp mode, since none of the internal amp channels are used, the unit will automatically engage ECO mode. The manual does not cover that but iirc, owners, and in one of more of those Youtube video by Gene, and/or Denon (again just iirc so don't quote me on that..) had mentioned it.

If you have questions on how to assign FL/FR to pre out to disconnect those two internal amps, you can try contacting Steve Dallas. I have been doing this for a few years now but mine is X4400H so the menu will look slightly different.

Below is link to his screenshots:
Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated) | Page 66 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The trick is, you have to select 11.1 mode in order to choose the FL/FR to pre out option, but once that's done, you can go back to the speaker menu to make changes back to your specific speaker configuration.

 

[mtrot]

That is understandable, not too many knows amp assign FL/FR to pre out is the same as preamp mode for those two channels, electrically speaking. The only difference is, in preamp mode, since none of the internal amp channels are used, the unit will automatically engage ECO mode. The manual does not cover that but iirc, owners, and in one of more of those Youtube video by Gene, and/or Denon (again just iirc so don't quote me on that..) had mentioned it.

If you have questions on how to assign FL/FR to pre out to disconnect those two internal amps, you can try contacting Steve Dallas. I have been doing this for a few years now but mine is X4400H so the menu will look slightly different.

Below is link to his screenshots:
Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated) | Page 66 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The trick is, you have to select 11.1 mode in order to choose the FL/FR to pre out option, but once that's done, you can go back to the speaker menu to make changes back to your specific speaker configuration.

I just ordered a 4700 from BB, to be delivered Saturday. I'll finally have my left channel back! Thanks to you and all for the great information. I'll be selling an AVR-X5200W for repair or parts soon. Not sure what is a reasonable price for that.

 

[ryanosaur]

ASR has their review of the 3800…

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mtrot]

ASR has their review of the 3800…

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Hmm, not exactly a stellar review.

 

[dlaloum]

Hmm, not exactly a stellar review.

Well.... it performs OK - more than acceptably, but not as well as the X3700 that preceded it. (or at leas the early X3700's with the AKM chipsets)

It is probably about the same as the later X3700 with the DAC downgrade.

A positive thing, is that the best SINAD is achieved at relatively low V output from the pre outs - this means that optimal SINAD is where it really matters - not at the dynamic peaks, but close to the average listening levels - that is a positive trend to be encouraged!

 

[Danzilla31]

Hmm, not exactly a stellar review.

Yikes!

Whats unforgivable to me is they're attitude about they're preamp section.

Eh it's good enough for most amps. Well what if your one of those who do not fit into that category?

For the money they are asking and the price increase it should not be too much to ask for a robust preamp section

 

[PENG]

Hmm, not exactly a stellar review.

Agreed, and I predicted it based on the DAC chip's datasheets. This is another example of why people should rely more on objective data, such as specs and measurements that are reliable and repeatable by nature, subjective measurements are not, obviously and unfortunately.

(2) Denon AVR-X3800H is released. | Page 2 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

I think you will still be very happy with the X4700H as even with the PCM5102A DAC, it should still measure as good as your 5200, and it has a better volume control chip.

Also, you most likely won't need more than 1 V pre out even under the highest peak, so for real world use either DAC will have near 100 dB SINAD, that's 0.001% THD+N, much lower than any of your power amps anyway.

And then in a year or two when you pay the $200 to $700 for the Dirac license, it will be like you have another exciting AVR upgrade.

 

[PENG]

Yikes!

Whats unforgivable to me is they're attitude about they're preamp section.

Eh it's good enough for most amps. Well what if your one of those who do not fit into that category?

For the money they are asking and the price increase it should not be too much to ask for a robust preamp section

Fortunately it won't affect those willing to spend $6,000 to $7,000 and want to stay with D+M, as they can go for the AVR-A1H or the AV10. Those will have the real Sabre ESS "reference" DAC chip, i.e. the ES9018K2M.

Very few preamp/processor has that kind of high end DAC chip, I can think of one or two more, one being the $7,500 Amthem AVM90, can't even think of a second one off hand..

Edit: I meant real "reference class" DAC

 

[beaRA]

A positive thing, is that the best SINAD is achieved at relatively low V output from the pre outs - this means that optimal SINAD is where it really matters - not at the dynamic peaks, but close to the average listening levels - that is a positive trend to be encouraged!

Whats unforgivable to me is they're attitude about they're preamp section.

An interesting dichotomy of reactions to the same data. Amir is not very clear about what aspect of the DAC performance Denon described as "good enough". Unless I'm missing something, he didn't even identify the limit of the pre-amp outputs as we are still at 87dB SINAD at the maximum tested 2V. There is no indication that the pre-amps can't drive any power amp to max output and it looks like Denon just decided to optimize for max SINAD in the lower range where most people will spend more time.