2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked

C

Chachy

Enthusiast
thank you. That helps greatly. So for my Parasound AMPS it would drop from around 101db range at 1v to 1.2v ish AKM DAC 3700 to roughly 93-94db ish for the 4800 TI DAC. I had asked a senior technical support rep from Denon(who I had been corresponding with on a different issue) about the lower SINAD And he said.

The X4800H will use the same DACs as the X3800H. Overall performance is not measured by the DAC alone, but rather the combined output of many components. We've logged many hours of listening tests and received Sound Master approval which gives us the utmost confidence that the X4800H will deliver the premium sound that our customer base expects from Denon.

Also said this about theAKM TO TI DAC change:

The SINAD is the signal to noise and distortion ratio. In this case, it defines the quality of the signal through the digital to analog conversion process. This alone does not signify the quality of the audio from the output of the AVR in totally. There are other components that are tuned to optimize what you hear from the unit. When the DACs were switched from AKM to TI, our Engineering team fine tuned these other components to ensure that the AVR's output is at an optimum quality.
 
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R

rbdan

Enthusiast
The A23+ and 2125v2 input sensitivity specs are clearly stated. My point was that some people seemed to think the 1 V, 28.28V, 8 ohms mean they only need 1 V pre out voltage from their AVR or AVP, and that is not the case.

1 V, for 28.28V at 8 ohms mean if you connect it to a pre out (preamp output) voltage of 1 V, you will get 28.28 V out of the power amp.

The power formula for a resistor load is P = VI, or P = I² X R, or = V² / R

so for 28.28 V, 8 ohm, Power output = 28.28X28.28/8 = about 100 W.

Using the A23+ as an example, the amp is rated 160 W into 8 ohms, that means an input of 1 V will not drive it to output 160 W, but only 100 W.

To reach the A23+ full rated 160 W output, you will need about 1.3 V. (see the spreadsheet table I attached in my earlier post on page 11)

2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked | Page 11 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

The X4800H should perform about the same as the X3800H because it has the same preamp vol and dac ICs and the X3700H and X4700H did perform the same based on ASR's previous bench tests.

Those AVR's preamp/dac can output well above 3 V so any of them can drive your Parasound power amps to their rated output without any issues.

About your SINAD question, my suggestion is that people should not focus on just one single point, such as SINAD (or THD+N) at 2 V. That would be like saying your speaker's impedance is 8 ohm, when in fact such values are not one single fixed or constant value. They tend to always vary with another parameter.

So if you can find the curve, that's what you should focus on.

I posted the ASR provided curve before, here it is for you again:
If you have question about the curve, just ask..

View attachment 58462
@PENG First of all thank you for all the knowledge that you are sharing.

I was thinking about getting the Denon X4800H as well and I have a similar question.

I have an amp that is rated at 1V for input sensitivity (29db) and my front stage is rated at 98dB with the center being 97dB.

If some online calculators are correct and more importantly I am understanding all of this :), that would mean that I would be well above reference levels at 50w or 100w which would mean less than 1V.

So again if I am understanding this correctly.... Wouldn't that mean that the actual SINAD that would be coming out of the Denon would be greater that 90dB and not be an issue for my setup?

Thanks again for all the info and analysis that you are providing!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The SINAD is the signal to noise and distortion ratio. In this case, it defines the quality of the signal through the digital to analog conversion process. This alone does not signify the quality of the audio from the output of the AVR in totally. There are other components that are tuned to optimize what you hear from the unit. When the DACs were switched from AKM to TI, our Engineering team fine tuned these other components to ensure that the AVR's output is at an optimum quality.
They are correct, obviously but even if they tuned all the other components to the best they can, it is not possible to improve SINAD higher than what the DAC IC can deliver.

Take a look again of what was posted before:

You can see that in the signal path (yellow), once the signal flow through the DAC, there is nothing else in the path that can bring SINAD back up from 93 dB, that is the spec of the DAC chip itself!!

It is possible to improve on noise for 3 to 6 dB if the DAC is implemented in differential mode but that is not the case here. The only Denon, including Marantz AVP/AVR that has ever use twice as many DAC ICs full differential implementation was the AVP-A1HD that Gene reviewed years ago.

1667919582729.jpeg
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG First of all thank you for all the knowledge that you are sharing.

I was thinking about getting the Denon X4800H as well and I have a similar question.

I have an amp that is rated at 1V for input sensitivity (29db) and my front stage is rated at 98dB with the center being 97dB.

If some online calculators are correct and more importantly I am understanding all of this :), that would mean that I would be well above reference levels at 50w or 100w which would mean less than 1V.

So again if I am understanding this correctly.... Wouldn't that mean that the actual SINAD that would be coming out of the Denon would be greater that 90dB and not be an issue for my setup?

Thanks again for all the info and analysis that you are providing!
First of all, you are welcome! As always, happy to help if I could.

I am not sure what you meant by "and my front stage is rated at 98dB with the center being 97dB. "

Did you mean spl from your main listening position based on an online calculator?

Reference level is 85 dB with 20 dB peak so total of 105 dB for the highest peaks in movies that follow THX standards.

If you need less than 1 V, then yes the X3800H can give you pre out SINAD of 90 dB, may be a little less at the lowest output levels. Keep in mind of the following consideration (not limited to) though:

- The graph Amir provided, same as similar graphs Gene included in many of his reviews/measurements typically specified the test signals that in many cases could be 1 kHz sine wave.

So at higher test frequencies, SINAD could be lower.

- The around 90 dB SINAD is for the pre outs, when measured at the power amp's binding posts, it would be around mid 80's such as 85 to 87 dB.

In order to see a better overall picture, you should read all the graphs if you are comparing the measured performance of A vs B.
 
C

Chachy

Enthusiast
I had contacted Parasound and the rep said just to make sure there was enough voltage out of the pre outs to ensure a high enough volume. He said.

SINAD (signal to noise and distortion) doesn't matter much matching components. It sounds like the new Denon has a little bit worse SINAD specs. Those specs are still so low that it is doubtful you could actually hear a difference. Both Parasound amps will be a great match and offer a significant improvement over the Denon's onboard amps.

The most important spec would be the voltage output from the Denon preamp outputs. I would want to see at least 1V, above 2V would be better, otherwise you may not get enough volume level.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I think @rbdan is referring to the sensitivity of his front speakers. Sound like Klipsch numbers, and if so, those would be overstated somewhat, might want to knock 4-6 dB off for using the calculator etc. Better to know the actual speakers, tho.
 
R

rbdan

Enthusiast
I think @rbdan is referring to the sensitivity of his front speakers. Sound like Klipsch numbers, and if so, those would be overstated somewhat, might want to knock 4-6 dB off for using the calculator etc. Better to know the actual speakers, tho.
Yeah, that is what I meant, Left and Right. I have the 8000f II for left and right and I agree that the 98dB is probably a little high. ;)
 
R

rbdan

Enthusiast
First of all, you are welcome! As always, happy to help if I could.

I am not sure what you meant by "and my front stage is rated at 98dB with the center being 97dB. "

Did you mean spl from your main listening position based on an online calculator?

Reference level is 85 dB with 20 dB peak so total of 105 dB for the highest peaks in movies that follow THX standards.

If you need less than 1 V, then yes the X3800H can give you pre out SINAD of 90 dB, may be a little less at the lowest output levels. Keep in mind of the following consideration (not limited to) though:

- The graph Amir provided, same as similar graphs Gene included in many of his reviews/measurements typically specified the test signals that in many cases could be 1 kHz sine wave.

So at higher test frequencies, SINAD could be lower.

- The around 90 dB SINAD is for the pre outs, when measured at the power amp's binding posts, it would be around mid 80's such as 85 to 87 dB.

In order to see a better overall picture, you should read all the graphs if you are comparing the measured performance of A vs B.
Thanks for the info. I always forget about the 20dB peak.

The 98dB is the stated sensitivity of my left and right (8000F II). I am sitting about 9 feet away from LCR.

I will be using an external AMP for LCR and my side surrounds so the Denon will power the rear surrounds and the 4 ceiling ATMOS speakers. I also have 2 large subs so my crossover will be 80Hz for all
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for the info. I always forget about the 20dB peak.

The 98dB is the stated sensitivity of my left and right (8000F II). I am sitting about 9 feet away from LCR.

I will be using an external AMP for LCR and my side surrounds so the Denon will power the rear surrounds and the 4 ceiling ATMOS speakers. I also have 2 large subs so my crossover will be 80Hz for all
Well then you should focus on the 0 to 1 V performance part of the curves for sure. Also, for your requirements, you can do better spending the money or other thing that matters more than using external amps.
 
R

rbdan

Enthusiast
Well then you should focus on the 0 to 1 V performance part of the curves for sure. Also, for your requirements, you can do better spending the money or other thing that matters more than using external amps.
Thank you
 
C

Chachy

Enthusiast
Yes thanks PENG for all of your help to clarify things. I had asked the Denon technical supervisor what the maximum output voltage was and he said 1.2V for main zone or zone 2 pre outs but doesn’t seem right.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
Yes thanks PENG for all of your help to clarify things. I had asked the Denon technical supervisor what the maximum output voltage was and he said 1.2V for main zone or zone 2 pre outs but doesn’t seem right.
And that's why we can't trust most manufacturer's reps and supervisors included, but we are lucky to have reliable reviews mostly such as those here and on the ASR site.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes thanks PENG for all of your help to clarify things. I had asked the Denon technical supervisor what the maximum output voltage was and he said 1.2V for main zone or zone 2 pre outs but doesn’t seem right.
That's what's in the manual I think. Did you ask for more details, such as distortion level? Technical supervisor of what I wonder....the phones?
 
C

Chachy

Enthusiast
I have been communicating with him by email. I had an issue with my 4700 where if I had two displays connected it would blink several times on startup before locking on the video signal. Sometimes lose signal during movies too. Was told it was an EDID problem and not much they could do. So went through the store I bought it from and it was confirmed by installers and other sources that the HDMI voltage isn’t enough so doesn’t work properly with two displays connected. Was agreed to that I could return for an in store credit from Denon so am now waiting for the 4800 as a result. Says he is a technical support supervisor. Who knows really.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have been communicating with him by email. I had an issue with my 4700 where if I had two displays connected it would blink several times on startup before locking on the video signal. Sometimes lose signal during movies too. Was told it was an EDID problem and not much they could do. So went through the store I bought it from and it was confirmed by installers and other sources that the HDMI voltage isn’t enough so doesn’t work properly with two displays connected. Was agreed to that I could return for an in store credit from Denon so am now waiting for the 4800 as a result. Says he is a technical support supervisor. Who knows really.
Supervisor of more technical oriented complaints? :) Interesting about not supporting the two displays....did one at a time work fine?
 
C

Chachy

Enthusiast
Yes one worked by itself but when JVC projector and Panasonic tv plugged in at the same time the problems would start. The store manager where I bought it reached out to manufacturers and like I said installers and they said it was very common with two displays. They even state on the new 4800 that there is an increased hdmi voltage.
 

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