2022 Denon av-receiver models leaked

[dlaloum]

An interesting dichotomy of reactions to the same data. Amir is not very clear about what aspect of the DAC performance Denon described as "good enough". Unless I'm missing something, he didn't even identify the limit of the pre-amp outputs as we are still at 87dB SINAD at the maximum tested 2V. There is no indication that the pre-amps can't drive any power amp to max output and it looks like Denon just decided to optimize for max SINAD in the lower range where most people will spend more time.

The down side, is that the SINAD is 10db down right across the range - which really is inexcusable, when they have raised the price so much...

 

[beaRA]

The down side, is that the SINAD is 10db down right across the range - which really is inexcusable, when they have raised the price so much...

If you can't hear a difference, does it matter? The price increase is a separate issue from the SINAD measurements. If the features justify the asking price compared to the competition for you personally, these measurements shouldn't change anything.

 

[Trell]

If you can't hear a difference, does it matter? The price increase is a separate issue from the SINAD measurements. If the features justify the asking price compared to the competition for you personally, these measurements shouldn't change anything.

Pay more for worse performance compared to previous model?

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[beaRA]

Pay more for worse performance compared to previous model? Perhaps Denon is not particularly good at engineering?

Whatever floats your boat.

Your comment kind of presumes a prospective buyer already has the previous generation product. I actually do agree that I wouldn't replace my AVR with the X3800H right now, but that has everything to do with waiting for the promised Dirac features to actually be implemented. By the time DLBC is ready in 2024, it will be time for another product release.

For someone that needs an AVR now, all they have to decide is if they are willing to pay the market going rate for a comparably featured AVR. The SINAD measurements compared to last generation won't affect their user experience.

 

[Trell]

Your comment kind of presumes a prospective buyer already has the previous generation product. I actually do agree that I wouldn't replace my AVR with the X3800H right now, but that has everything to do with waiting for the promised Dirac features to actually be implemented. By the time DLBC is ready in 2024, it will be time for another product release.

For someone that needs an AVR now, all they have to decide is if they are willing to pay the market going rate for a comparably featured AVR. The SINAD measurements compared to last generation won't affect their user experience.

I’m not particularly happy about performance regressions at a much higher price in any product. Denon could have chosen to go with a similar performant DAC IC as in the previous model that used AKM.

As for upcoming DLBC it’s vaporware, and there is no dynamic loudness functionality either like the Audyssey DynEQ, so Dirac is uninteresting to me.

I’ll hold on to my 2015 model Denon AVR for quite some time more, as long as it works.

 

[PENG]

Yep, same here, if one has something like the AVR-X4300H models there is no reason to replace it with a X3800H through X6800H. Those with earlier models and don't want to wait then the X3800H may be good because of its relatively low price point, but then why not wait for the upcoming boxing day deal or something like that..

 

[mtrot]

Yes, I was quite happy with my 5200, but the left channel went out and it wasn't worth the time and hassle of getting it repaired. At least, I don't think so. Now, I will wait until I get a listen to my new 4700 before I get rid of the 5200!

 

[beaRA]

I’m not particularly happy about performance regressions at a much higher price in any product. Denon could have chosen to go with a similar performant DAC IC as in the previous model that used AKM.

As for upcoming DLBC it’s vaporware, and there is no dynamic loudness functionality either like the Audyssey DynEQ, so Dirac is uninteresting to me.

I’ll hold on to my 2015 model Denon AVR for quite some time more, as long as it works.

I'm not particularly happy about SINAD performance regression either, but I am indifferent because I know I could not hear the difference. You keep conflating the price with the SINAD performance. The price is set based on the features relative to the market competition.

DLBC is not vaporware. DLBC on the X3800H is vaporware which is why I already agreed that I wouldn't replace an AVR with the X3800H today.

 

[Trell]

DLBC is not vaporware. DLBC on the X3800H is vaporware

That’s what I meant.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yep, same here, if one has something like the AVR-X4300H models there is no reason to replace it with a X3800H through X6800H. Those with earlier models and don't want to wait then the X3800H may be good because of its relatively low price point, but then why not wait for the upcoming boxing day deal or something like that..

There's going to be a 6800? Thought they skipped the X6xxx this round?

 

[Danzilla31]

There's going to be a 6800? Thought they skipped the X6xxx this round?

I think it's coming out next year if I remember what they said correctly. It was the lower end models and the 3800 and 4800 plus the flagship that came out this year

 

[lovinthehd]

I think it's coming out next year if I remember what they said correctly. It was the lower end models and the 3800 and 4800 plus the flagship that came out this year

I was thinking that the next 6-series wouldn't get the x800 designation, was thinking more the next one would be 6900....there was a gap between 6500 and 6700 as a sort of precedent....

 

[dlaloum]

If you can't hear a difference, does it matter? The price increase is a separate issue from the SINAD measurements. If the features justify the asking price compared to the competition for you personally, these measurements shouldn't change anything.

Two seperate issues... 1) in engineering terms there is a step down, 2) in audio listening threshold terms they are no different.... and 3) the X3800 gains additional functions (Auro, 4 independent subs)

It comes down to how does the individual value these - and how do you rank these alonside the retail price.

Auro and independent subs ranks highly in pragmatic terms ... listening threshold gives it a "get out of jail free" card with many people... does that make it worth the price of the previous X4700? - that's up to the individual buyer.

The move upmarket by D&M, means that the X3800 does NOT in fact replace the X3700 in market positioning, but instead is positioned where the X4700 was.... and so on up the range.

Can the X2800 fill the X3700's shoes? - can it go toe to toe with the Onkyo RZ50? Clearly marketing thinks so. Audio Nerds are likely to disagree!

 

[lovinthehd]

Two seperate issues... 1) in engineering terms there is a step down, 2) in audio listening threshold terms they are no different.... and 3) the X3800 gains additional functions (Auro, 4 independent subs)

It comes down to how does the individual value these - and how do you rank these alonside the retail price.

Auro and independent subs ranks highly in pragmatic terms ... listening threshold gives it a "get out of jail free" card with many people... does that make it worth the price of the previous X4700? - that's up to the individual buyer.

The move upmarket by D&M, means that the X3800 does NOT in fact replace the X3700 in market positioning, but instead is positioned where the X4700 was.... and so on up the range.

Can the X2800 fill the X3700's shoes? - can it go toe to toe with the Onkyo RZ50? Clearly marketing thinks so. Audio Nerds are likely to disagree!

The 2800 isn't quite the same level as the 3700 in terms of version of Audyssey, independent treatment of subs, full set of pre-outs, number of onboard amp channels or processing...

 

[dlaloum]

The 2800 isn't quite the same level as the 3700 in terms of version of Audyssey, independent treatment of subs, full set of pre-outs, number of onboard amp channels or processing...

No, it isn't ... but the price band it is trying to occupy in the market, is the one previously held by the X3700.

Denon marketing ( and their retail outlets/supporters) - will therefore logically try to justify the position of the X2800... and of course the X3800 now priced around the old X4700 price bracket.... The flagship "A" models from D&M justify their price on performance, and hand built traditional "Tank" values.... I remain unconvinced about the rest of the range - and the X2800 is a prime example, more money for less performance.

The X4700 is looking like great value at the moment! (get them while their still available!)

 

[beaRA]

Two seperate issues... 1) in engineering terms there is a step down, 2) in audio listening threshold terms they are no different.... and 3) the X3800 gains additional functions (Auro, 4 independent subs)

It comes down to how does the individual value these - and how do you rank these alonside the retail price.

Auro and independent subs ranks highly in pragmatic terms ... listening threshold gives it a "get out of jail free" card with many people... does that make it worth the price of the previous X4700? - that's up to the individual buyer.

The move upmarket by D&M, means that the X3800 does NOT in fact replace the X3700 in market positioning, but instead is positioned where the X4700 was.... and so on up the range.

Can the X2800 fill the X3700's shoes? - can it go toe to toe with the Onkyo RZ50? Clearly marketing thinks so. Audio Nerds are likely to disagree!

There was no upmarket move by D&M. The TX-RZ50 now costs $1600 so is still the direct competitor to the X3800H.

 

[beaRA]

The X4700 is looking like great value at the moment! (get them while their still available!)

If you care about the inaudible SINAD difference, a new X4700H likely has the same performance because they had to replace the DAC mid-cycle. Otherwise, the X3800H has a better feature set.

 

[PENG]

Does anyone know if Onkyo has replaced the AK4458 with something else too?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The X4700 is looking like great value at the moment! (get them while their still available!)

Even if the X4700 is several hundreds more expensive than the new X3800?

I know several people who chose the X3800 simply because it’s less expensive and newer.

But it is an interesting decision.

 

[Trebdp83]

Well, you do get that sweet universal remote controller with the X4700. You know, the one they ripped away from the 3XXX models years ago along with some other features while still raising the price.