Robb elementary shooting in TX

D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
We are both talking about 'what if' scenarios. All I'm stating is that if I even take your theory at full value, I'll take my chances on it not proving true.

I think not freaking selling a weapon that can discharge 120 rounds in the matter of a few minutes will prove to be more effective in the long term.

There is no reasonable need for this type of armament for the gen-pub. Period.
The problem is there are excellent reasons for it to be able to do so. Especially for home defense with multiple attackers. Handguns even shotguns and limited rounds won't always cut it in those situations.

The weapon is designed to make even average users become excellent users or much improved. There was a case where a man and his son was assaulted by armed multiple attackers in his front yard. His pregnant wife with limited training was able to drive them off with a AR-15. She would not have had the skill to do so with a handgun

I've shot AR-15's many times and I can say it made me go from an average marksman to a very good one. My military friends had one with a special scope and I went from a very good marksman to an excellent one. With no effort on my part.

Which is the problem. It is a weapon that really is too good at what it was designed to do. Which is to make someone average at home defense an excellent defender. But when you have a weapon that could turn your grandma into a Rambo and then get it easy access into the hands of angry unbalanced individuals especially this pattern of young mentally ill men you have a real problem. Because they are now with no training or effort on there part proficient to the level of officers and other first responders and well above the normal citizen even if that normal citizen is armed with standard guns of self defense.

Should there be a ban or at least restrictions on this type of weaponry? Yeah I think so. They put a ban in a lot of areas on pitbulls and other canine breeds. Not because of any fault of that magnificent animal. But due to the fact that a large number of humans cannot properly train or will intentionally mistrain and use such a powerful breed for reasons other then there intended purpose. To disastrous results.

If you can ban or at minimum restrict an animals ownership for its misuse and improper training and the danger that creates you can ban the use of a certain type of firearm for the same reasons.

My problem is not the ban. But will the government step up after and address all the other issues that lead into this. Such as the obvious deterioration of our nation's mental health after the effects of this current pandemic that impacted our society. Especially how that impacted our youth who lost a normal portion of theyre development social and educational due to the pandemic. Our adolescent units are packed at my hospital and the kids are way more aggressive than they used to be. Some of it due to the last few years impact on education but also the ripple effect this and other pandemic related issues had on there family units due to economic hardship increased domestic abuse and so forth.

If we don't take advantage of any help a ban like this would do and go after those issues then as @cpp states these types of individuals who are increasing in our society will just find another just as effective way to act there homicidal impulses out.

But I agree with you @jinjuku these individuals are out there in increasing numbers so you have to start somewhere. And acknowledging our mental instability as a society right now and restricting this type of access is a great place to START. I just want the conversation to go further with our lawmakers and politicians.

There is a type of magical thinking that if you just restrict then the problem gets solved. That's just human nature to look at these things that way. But we need to go further if we really want to put a stop to this and save some of our impacted youth and there victims if they self destruct

I've always found it ironic as a mental health worker that on so many street corners you got a liquor store put right by a gun store. And they seem and this is just me to be set up that way on certain streets and certain places for a reason. I'd like that dynamic to get addressed too. Or we are just in the long run putting a band aid on a shotgun wound of our society

But your right @jinjuku we have got to start somewhere. Limiting access would be a good place to start. Other options obviously aren't working.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The problem is there are excellent reasons for it to be able to do so. Especially for home defense with multiple attackers.
I'd actually argue that a can of wide dispersion bear spray will be more effective. You won't be as hesitant to deploy it. You have a much larger sweet spot for it's effectiveness. You can't over shoot, and if you happen to miss and hit a member of the household they aren't going to bleed out. You won't have to keep it in a safe or trigger locked.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The root cause of all this carnage, is the American Constitution. The American Constitution is a 223 year old fossil. It is long passed time for another constitutional conference. The document needs to be a body of law that can evolve with the times.
No private citizen should own or posses a gun. Possessing a gun or ammo should get you a life sentence. The second amendment is an absolute abomination.
I'm with you brother.. :)
I'm responding to you both because of the broad attack on the US Constitution – in my opinion, much too broad – insultingly broad. While I agree with your points about gun ownership, I cannot agree that the US Constitution is a 223-year-old fossil, especially when these comments come from a former Englishman who is now a dual US-UK citizen (am I right on the dual citizenship?) and an Australian. How is one of the last European monarchies less of a fossil than the US Constitution?

One of the original framers of the Constitution, James Madison imagined revisions of the Constitution might happen every two or three decades. There have been quite a few amendments to the Constitution, but we’ve never reconvened a Constitutional Convention. Several major issues require significant revision or even elimination, including the Second Amendment concerning gun ownership, and the so-called Electoral College method electing a US President.

Let's focus on the Second Amendment. America has a major problem with gun ownership and gun-related crime, resulting from a severe misinterpretation of the Second Amendment. First of all, some facts:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
Gun ownership among the world's civilians is concentrated in American hands. Within the USA, gun ownership is concentrated even more narrowly among the country's gun-owning households. As of 2017, a Gallup poll found that 42% of American households reported owning guns. With an estimated 118 million households in the United States, per the US Census, that means the country's 393 million guns are distributed among 50 million households. The implication is that the average gun-owning household owns nearly eight guns.

A separate Harvard-Northeastern study published in 2016 found that 3% of American adults (individuals, not households) own half the nation's firearms. Combined with the latest Small Arms Survey estimate, that would mean that 3% of American adults own nearly 25% of the world's civilian firearms stockpile.

Is this very high level of gun ownership a problem in the USA? Yes, if you consider the number of gun-related crimes. Is this problem shared by other nations, especially other economically developed nations? The USA stands out as having by far the highest rate of gun-related deaths (both homicides and suicides) among 23 other western and Asian countries.
1653581285425.png


If you make a scatter plot comparing gun ownership to gun homicides in the USA and 35 other developed nations, you can see an undeniable correlation between high gun ownership and gun homicides. Again, the USA jumps out in this analysis.
1653581332264.png

Both graphs come from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
 
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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
GOP is a problem when it comes to sensible gun control laws and below is a nice article from Max Boot that is conservative.


>>>
By Max Boot

We are now embarked upon a distinctively American ritual such as the Super Bowl or the Fourth of July — only much, much grimmer. We are, for the umpteenth time, in the immediate aftermath of a mass shooting. Nineteen children and two teachers were just massacred at an elementary school in Uvalde, Tex., by a teenager who had been able to legally purchase two AR-15-style assault rifles — weapons of war — as soon as he turned 18 years old.

As usual, both Democrats and Republicans react with horror but with widely divergent perspectives on how to respond. Anguished Democrats call for more gun regulation. That makes sense since America not only has more guns in private hands than any other nation in the world (nearly 400 million) but also some of the world’s loosest gun laws. But Republicans want to do, essentially, nothing. They fiercely resist calls to make it harder to buy and carry guns with a variety of deceitful dodges that are no less contemptible for being so familiar.

The most common reaction on the right is to offer, as the Internet meme has it, “thoughts and prayers.” It’s as if Uvalde had been struck by a hurricane or tornado that we poor humans can do nothing to affect. Indeed, Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.) tweeted, “You cannot legislate away evil.” That is not, of course, the Republican reaction to Islamist terrorist attacks. After Sept. 11, 2001, they did not shrug their shoulders and say “What can you do?” They worked with Democrats to massively beef up airport security while also launching invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Likewise, Republicans have no problem passing legislation to address the perceived evils that concern them — e.g., abortion or critical race theory. Many members of the “pro-life party,” however, simply do not appear to view the murder of children who are out of the womb as an issue that cries out for a legislative solution.
Nana Efua Mumford: I just want to know: How can I protect my 6-year-old daughter?

To deflect gun regulations, right-wingers offer their own, increasingly outlandish proposals for how to avert school shootings. One former FBI agent interviewed on the Fox “News” Channel suggested that parents, instead of buying their kids toys and games, should invest in “ballistic blankets” — as if that would stop a determined shooter. Why not dress kids in bulletproof clothing too?

A retired detective suggested on another Fox News show that the answer is to install “man traps” in all schools: “a series of interlocking doors at the school entrance that are triggered by a tripwire … and it traps the shooter like a rat.” He did not, needless to say, offer any suggestions for how to pay for this elaborate idea or offer any evidence that it would prove effective.

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) opined that “We need to return to God,” as if religious fanatics never perpetrate violence. She also echoed a common refrain on the right: “Our nation needs to take a serious look at the state of mental health today.” No doubt that’s true, and she’s Exhibit A. But (a) there is no evidence that the United States has more mental health problems than any other country and (b) Republicans consistently oppose more funding for mental health services. Indeed, conservatives are targeting mental health programs in many schools for elimination.

Another popular, if self-refuting, GOP talking point is to argue that the answer to widespread gun violence is to make guns more widely available. Sean Hannity suggested a tax break to retired soldiers and police officers who patrol schools. His colleague Jesse Watters called for using covid-19 relief money to hire more school security guards. Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton wants to arm teachers.

Its advocates don’t care that this theory — “the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun” — has been invalidated time and again. In the Buffalo mass shooting less than two weeks ago, a store security guard shot at the killer, who was clad in body armor, but did not stop his rampage. In Uvalde, a school district officer shot at the gunman but could not prevent him from entering the school.

The Federalist, a right-wing publication, might deserve some kind of booby prize for the most ludicrous alternative to gun control. It ran an article headlined: “Tragedies Like The Texas Shooting Make A Somber Case For Homeschooling.” So if you don’t have schools, you won’t have school shootings? Genius! But weren’t Republicans just complaining about covid restrictions that kept kids out of school?
Of course, none of these suggestions should be taken either literally or seriously. Republicans have shown repeatedly that protecting “gun rights” matters more to them than protecting the right to life. They aren’t actually trying to prevent mass shootings. They’re simply tossing out farcical ideas to distract the public and fill the airtime until public anger dissipates and gun legislation stalls. Then, very soon, we will have the next mass shooting and we can repeat this same pathetic ritual all over again.
<<<
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I'd actually argue that a can of wide dispersion bear spray will be more effective. You won't be as hesitant to deploy it. You have a much larger sweet spot for it's effectiveness. You can't over shoot, and if you happen to miss and hit a member of the household they aren't going to bleed out. You won't have to keep it in a safe or trigger locked.
There is a reason that they train you to meet a perpetrators lethal response with the same level of response.

In a street fight or home situation with multiple opponents attacking with there fists I agree. That is a great go to.

But not in a home invasion with armed intruders. I've been robbed at gunpoint twice. Going for a spray would have got me killed. Even if you get the drop with the spray they may just panic and start to shoot. Then you have the same problem you brought up above.

But that's besides the point. If someone wants to go with spray as self defense that's they're right I understand not everyone is comfortable handling fire arms.

Regardless as a gun owner I do agree with you that restricting these types of weapons is a good place to start in psych when patients come in acute we are trained to remove items of certain danger from the environment. While the individual is in an unsafe state of mind remove some of there options so to speak

Since we are at a acute level with this as a society I don't see how that same level of reasoning wouldn't apply. Remove certain objects from the environment.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I'm responding to you both because of the broad attack on the US Constitution – in my opinion, much too broad – insultingly broad. While I agree with your points about gun ownership, I cannot agree that the US Constitution is a 223-year-old fossil, especially when these comments come from a former Englishman who is now a dual US-UK citizen (am I right on the dual citizenship?) and an Australian. How is one of the last European monarchies less of a fossil than the US Constitution?

One of the original framers of the Constitution, James Madison imagined revisions of the Constitution might happen every two or three decades. There have been quite a few amendments to the Constitution, but we’ve never reconvened a Constitutional Convention. Several major issues require significant revision or even elimination, including the Second Amendment concerning gun ownership, and the so-called Electoral College method electing a US President.

Let's focus on the Second Amendment. America has a major problem with gun ownership and gun-related crime, resulting from a severe misinterpretation of the Second Amendment. First of all, some facts:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
Gun ownership among the world's civilians is concentrated in American hands. Within the USA, gun ownership is concentrated even more narrowly among the country's gun-owning households. As of 2017, a Gallup poll found that 42% of American households reported owning guns. With an estimated 118 million households in the United States, per the US Census, that means the country's 393 million guns are distributed among 50 million households. The implication is that the average gun-owning household owns nearly eight guns.

A separate Harvard-Northeastern study published in 2016 found that 3% of American adults (individuals, not households) own half the nation's firearms. Combined with the latest Small Arms Survey estimate, that would mean that 3% of American adults own nearly 25% of the world's civilian firearms stockpile.

Is this very high level of gun ownership a problem in the USA? Yes, if you consider the number of gun-related crimes. Is this problem shared by other nations, especially other economically developed nations? The USA stands out as having by far the highest rate of gun-related deaths (both homicides and suicides) among 23 other western and Asian countries.
View attachment 56275

If you make a scatter plot comparing gun ownership to gun homicides in the USA and 35 other developed nations, you can see an undeniable correlation between high gun ownership and gun homicides. Again, the USA stands out in this analysis.
View attachment 56276
Both graphs come from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
What's interesting about your information is that's not taking into account illegal guns and illegal use and possession. That's a useful part that's missing from those graphs.

How much of those incidents are connected to legal gun owning households and how much is connected to illegal activities and illegal use and ownership?

Without both sets of data hard to know if we make changes what we exactly need to fix.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
A PO'd kid buying a gun and hiding it in his grandparents' house is NOT the same as someone joining the military. His grandfather said he had a criminal record and couldn't be around guns and in the military, they're trained extensively and disciplined. Are you saying that all 18 year olds can handle those responsibilities? Sure- let's let 18 year olds get things that can kill themselves or others. What's the worst that could happen?
Absolutely not. But, allowing them by law as is the case in Texas, those reasons must have been used in their legislature to pass that law. Same with allowing them to smoke in at 18 in some states. Legislators are the ones who use such excuses to lower the age. That gives more profits for businesses who supports those legislators.
I guess my wording wasn't clear enough that those words are used as an excuse/reason for passing such stupid laws.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Now let’s look at the Second Amendment of the US Constitution. (For reference, I’ve attached a PDF copy of the US Constitution below.)

There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with capitalization or punctuation differences. Differences exist between the version passed by Congress and put on display, and the versions ratified by the states. These differences have been a focus of debate regarding the meaning of the amendment, particularly regarding the importance of what the courts have called the prefatory clause.

The final, handwritten original of the Bill of Rights as passed by Congress, with the rest of the original prepared by scribe William Lambert, is preserved in the National Archives. This is the version ratified by Delaware and used by the Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller. It says:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Some other versions of the Second Amendment, ratified by other states, omitted the final comma. Others, such as Maryland’s, omitted the first comma. The ratification acts from New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and South Carolina contained only one comma, but with differences in capitalization that varied from state to state. So, which version is THE VERSION? This becomes important – read on.

For more than 200 years, the 2nd Amendment was interpreted to mean that state militias had to be maintained to protect the security of individual free states (from unnamed threats). To do that, at least in the 18th century, that required that potential militia members must be able to keep and bear arms.

In the USA, before the 19th century, no standing army existed. When the Constitution and the original 9 amendments were written, 1789-92, state militias were the only form of military, and they consisted of residents who provided their own guns.

Only much later, did a standing regular army became established, with reserve units, including state-run National Guard reserve units. State militias where the militia men provided their own weapons disappeared. But the wording of the 2nd Amendment never was changed. Nor did it seem to need changing.

There were those who claimed that the 2nd Amendment never was intended only to protect the states’ ability to raise militias. The most extreme interpretation was that no laws, of any kind, may restrict owning firearms, of any kind. But that extreme view is espoused only by a minority, represented by the National Rifle Association. Their interpretations clearly conflict with the 2nd Amendment’s words “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”.

Yet, in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the US Supreme Court ruled, for the first time, that the right to bear arms belongs to individuals, for self-defense in the home. It ignored the words “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”. It also included, as obiter dicta (A legal term meaning a non-binding interpretation of law that has no bearing on the case at hand but might be useful in future cases.), that the right to bear arms is not unlimited and does not preclude the existence of certain long-standing prohibitions such as those forbidding "the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill" or restrictions on "the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons".

This ruling was extended two years later in McDonald v. City of Chicago (2010) when the US Supreme Court further ruled that state and local governments are limited to the same extent as the federal government from infringing upon this right.

Needless to say, these rulings have been highly controversial. The 2nd Amendment was never written that way, and it was never previously interpreted that way.

Nowhere in the US Constitution do these words, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms” appear without the following phrase “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” coming immediately before it. Regardless of punctuation or capitalization, those two phrases always appear linked together. You can satisfy yourself by searching the PDF document I attached below.

In his written opinion, Supreme Court Justice Scalia went to great effort in claiming that the existence of a single comma unlinks the "well regulated Militia" phrase from the "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" phrase. Scalia got it wrong! I can’t imagine what contorted reasoning he might have used to justify that highly unusual interpretation. He liked to act as if he were a wise legal scholar, but his unprecedented ruling was really a naked exercise in political power.

Since those two rulings, many states have significantly loosened their laws on gun ownership beyond what Scalia wrote. Texas has gone so far as to essentially remove all regulations on gun sales. It readily allows 18-year-olds to buy hand guns and long guns (shotguns, hunting rifles, semi-automatic military style guns, etc.) without requiring a permit. Background checks are done, but they are so perfunctory that they rarely, if ever, block a gun sale. Texas, and other states, even allow hand gun owners to carry their weapons in public without permit or regulation.

This was clearly never included in the Supreme Court’s written opinions on those two cases. But this illustrates how a written ruling creates a ‘slippery slope’ that soon opens the door to unintended extensions of the original ruling. As you can see, these two rulings have created a huge problem and a huge political controversy.
 

Attachments

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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Of the current 50 GOP Senators only four where open or undecided on supporting a pair of House-passed measures to strengthen background checks for gun buyers.


>>>The New York Times reached out on Wednesday to all 50 Republicans in the Senate to see whether they would support a pair of House-passed measures to strengthen background checks for gun buyers. Within hours of the elementary school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, Senate Democrats moved quickly to clear the way for possible votes on the two bills.

The legislation would expand criminal background checks to would-be purchasers on the internet and at gun shows and give the F.B.I. more time to investigate gun buyers flagged by the instant background check system.

The vast majority of Republicans have opposed gun safety legislation for years, banding together to block its consideration or refusing to bring it up.

Most Republicans who have responded to The Times so far have either declined to take a position or signaled they would oppose the measures, citing concerns about infringing on the rights of gun owners.

[The article has a list of all the Senators answers]
<<<
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Now let’s look at the Second Amendment of the US Constitution. (For reference, I’ve attached a PDF copy of the US Constitution below.)

There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with capitalization or punctuation differences. Differences exist between the version passed by Congress and put on display, and the versions ratified by the states. These differences have been a focus of debate regarding the meaning of the amendment, particularly regarding the importance of what the courts have called the prefatory clause.

The final, handwritten original of the Bill of Rights as passed by Congress, with the rest of the original prepared by scribe William Lambert, is preserved in the National Archives. This is the version ratified by Delaware and used by the Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller. It says:


Some other versions of the Second Amendment, ratified by other states, omitted the final comma. Others, such as Maryland’s, omitted the first comma. The ratification acts from New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and South Carolina contained only one comma, but with differences in capitalization that varied from state to state. So, which version is THE VERSION? This becomes important – read on.

For more than 200 years, the 2nd Amendment was interpreted to mean that state militias had to be maintained to protect the security of individual free states (from unnamed threats). To do that, at least in the 18th century, that required that potential militia members must be able to keep and bear arms.

In the USA, before the 19th century, no standing army existed. When the Constitution and the original 9 amendments were written, 1789-92, state militias were the only form of military, and they consisted of residents who provided their own guns.

Only much later, did a standing regular army became established, with reserve units, including state-run National Guard reserve units. State militias where the militia men provided their own weapons disappeared. But the wording of the 2nd Amendment never was changed. Nor did it seem to need changing.

There were those who claimed that the 2nd Amendment never was intended only to protect the states’ ability to raise militias. The most extreme interpretation was that no laws, of any kind, may restrict owning firearms, of any kind. But that extreme view is espoused only by a minority, represented by the National Rifle Association. Their interpretations clearly conflict with the 2nd Amendment’s words “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”.

Yet, in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the US Supreme Court ruled, for the first time, that the right to bear arms belongs to individuals, for self-defense in the home. It ignored the words “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”. It also included, as obiter dicta (A legal term meaning a non-binding interpretation of law that has no bearing on the case at hand but might be useful in future cases.), that the right to bear arms is not unlimited and does not preclude the existence of certain long-standing prohibitions such as those forbidding "the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill" or restrictions on "the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons".

This ruling was extended two years later in McDonald v. City of Chicago (2010) when the US Supreme Court further ruled that state and local governments are limited to the same extent as the federal government from infringing upon this right.

Needless to say, these rulings have been highly controversial. The 2nd Amendment was never written that way, and it was never previously interpreted that way.

I want to point out that nowhere in the US Constitution do these words, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms” appear without the following phrase coming immediately before it “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”. Regardless of punctuation or capitalization, those two phrases always appear linked together. You can satisfy yourself by searching the PDF document I attached below.

Supreme Court Justice Scalia got it wrong in his written opinion! I can’t imagine what contorted reasoning he might have used to justify his interpretation that gun ownership was not linked to State Militias. Scalia liked to act as if he were a wise legal scholar, but his ruling was really a naked exercise in political power.

Since those two rulings, many states have significantly loosened their laws on gun ownership beyond what Scalia wrote. Texas has gone so far as to essentially remove all regulations on gun sales. It readily allows 18-year-olds to buy hand guns and long guns (shotguns, hunting rifles, semi-automatic military style guns, etc.) without requiring a permit. Background checks are done, but they are so perfunctory that they rarely, if ever, block a gun sale. Texas, and other states, even allow hand gun owners carry their weapons in public without permit or regulation.

This was clearly never included in the Supreme Court’s written opinions on those two cases. But this illustrates how a written ruling creates a ‘slippery slope’ that soon opens the door to unintended extensions of the original ruling. As you can see, these two rulings have created a huge problem and a huge political controversy.
Very interesting points thank you that was good information!
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
What's interesting about your information is that's not taking into account illegal guns and illegal use and possession. That's a useful part that's missing from those graphs.

How much of those incidents are connected to legal gun owning households and how much is connected to illegal activities and illegal use and ownership?

Without both sets of data hard to know if we make changes what we exactly need to fix.
Recent events in Texas and New York, as well as others, have clearly shown that focusing on legally owned guns vs. illegally owned guns is irrelevant. All those other countries in those two graphs differ from the USA in that they limit legal gun ownership to the point that gun ownership overall is much less widespread.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
The root cause of all this carnage, is the American Constitution. The American Constitution is a 223 year old fossil. It is long passed time for another constitutional conference. The document needs to be a body of law that can evolve with the times.

No private citizen should own or posses a gun. Possessing a gun or ammo should get you a life sentence. The second amendment is an absolute abomination.
I would think the courts are the reason for this mess especially the judges of originalists. They are the ones who overturn the laws based on their political reasons, not because of the constitution itself. Even Justice Scalia indicated that it is not an absolute right and can be regulated. But no, some go off the deep end.

Oh, and to open up a new constitutional convention, you better have the right people or it will change the constitution you didn't want.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Recent events in Texas and New York, as well as others, have clearly shown that focusing on legally owned guns vs. illegally owned guns is irrelevant. All those other countries in those two graphs differ from the USA in that they limit legal gun ownership to the point that gun ownership overall is much less widespread.
I'd say thats too simplistic. We've had gun use for so long in the States a blanket block of guns period from the legal side doesn't address criminals access to illegal means. And citizens safety if they do.

Also what are the socio and economic factors driving illegal crime or legal ownership crime and use of these weapons and this type of violence. Saying they are bad people in crime ridden communities is terribly short sighted. There are reasons communities and individuals are driven to those extremes.

I think you'd have to go after both for your idea to work. And you'd have to go after these underlying issues that are contributing to the data. Otherwise high risk communities and individuals will find other ways to act out.

But if you could do realistically those things I'll definetly be on board with what your proposing.
I'm a lover of 2a by necessity I've never enjoyed it. If there is a better way let's get there.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Recent events in Texas and New York, as well as others, have clearly shown that focusing on legally owned guns vs. illegally owned guns is irrelevant. All those other countries in those two graphs differ from the USA in that they limit legal gun ownership to the point that gun ownership overall is much less widespread.
What did surprise me in your other post is the high suicide rate in some countries with regulated firearm ownership, like Finland where you need to give an approved reason (like hunting, sport, work).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...

I was also informed that the rate of gun ownership is the same as the total population of your country.
There are over 400 million firearms in the public domain. Population around 345 million.
Many don't own firearms, but many also have a bunch, and truckloads of ammo.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I would think the courts are the reason for this mess especially the judges of originalists. They are the ones who overturn the laws based on their political reasons, not because of the constitution itself. Even Justice Scalia indicated that it is not an absolute right and can be regulated. But no, some go off the deep end.
When Scalia wrote that 'gun ownership is not an absolute right and can be regulated', it was as an obiter dictum. It was an aside statement, unrelated to the body of his majority opinion. I have to question his true intent because it also clearly implied, 'you can ignore any part of this aside [gun ownership is not an absolute right and can be regulated], as you wish'.

Texas clearly did. Sometimes I think that state wants to require open carry of everyone.
 
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D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
@Danzilla31

As always, I appreciate your input, even when we don't agree. If nothing else, you keep me on my toes.
I don't think we disagree as much as you think my friend we just have different mindsets on how to get there. But that's what makes America great as troubled as she is right now. People like and you and me push each other challenge each other to think about our shared problems. And from that comes evolution and hopefully the best way forward.

I've always enjoyed our talks and your contributions I've learned a lot from you and you have opened my eyes to lots of things. Thank you for that.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I declare shenanigans, goal post moving, and overall bad faith argument. There is no data supporting this. But I would be willing to greatly restrict gun ownership as an experiment to see if what you are suggesting holds true.

I'll take my chances.
But we have other countries to look at who already experimented. Was it New Zealand many years ago that had a terrible mass shooting incident? The passed laws banning guns. No mass shooting since, perhaps 25 years.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
But not in a home invasion with armed intruders. I've been robbed at gunpoint twice. Going for a spray would have got me killed. Even if you get the drop with the spray they may just panic and start to shoot. Then you have the same problem you brought up above.
Ever watch Cover your ASP? He talks very much about first mover advantage. It is what it is.

In your getting robbed you would have been killed going for your gun also. If you aren't first mover or you can't change the terms of engagement (pull from cover/concealment) then I don't know what your point is.

People that are armed, that get shot, can also very much panic and shoot. So not sure as to your point.

MY point is that someone is more than likely to full on hose a home intruder down with a 9oz can of pepper spray than pull a trigger. When the fight/flight hormones are flowing accuracy goes down. Pepper spray is more lenient in this regard.
 
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