Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Afaik you cannot apply DSU to a native Atmos track. You can however use the base 7/5.1 track that way. Same for DTSnx.
Se? Or no…

All I know is that if the source is Atmos and I use DSU, I still get Atmos.

If the source is Atmos and I use NeuralX, then I get NeuralX.

If the source is DTSX and I use NeuralX, I still get DTSX.

If the source is DTSX and I use DSU, then I get DSU.

 

[AVR Enthu]

Upmixing, LOL. There is no embedded spatial, esp. height, info to be extracted from these mono, stereo or surround signals to be meaningfully reproduced in a multi-speaker setup. This is simply filtering and delaying some sounds to create a reverb simulating "spaciousness" which marketing misrepresents as "full 3D experience."
Similar to the BS on Denon's AVR site, where you can select a "DTS:X Pro" filter that results in 4 models, of which 3 do not support it in the actual specs.

You are right. I said exactly that in the previous post:
"For Auro 3D, the question is once 5.1 Dolby Surround from PCM stereo signal is mapped on the base 5.1 layer, is there any different sound left to be heard from the heights? No. The heights could simply repeat what is already on the base layer if the output is set over 5.1 + 2 high speakers, the same as playing 5.1 track over 7.1 speakers. "

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

All I know is that if the source is Atmos and I use DSU, I still get Atmos.

If the source is Atmos and I use NeuralX, then I get NeuralX.

If the source is DTSX and I use NeuralX, I still get DTSX.

If the source is DTSX and I use DSU, then I get DSU.

Not trying to argue. But could you verify that? I don’t believe that it works that way. Not on my Marantz anyway, and I thought that was universal. I tested this back in February. I’ll try and find my results. Memory not so good always! Lol

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not trying to argue. But could you verify that? I don’t believe that it works that way. Not on my Marantz anyway, and I thought that was universal. I tested this back in February. I’ll try and find my results. Memory not so good always! Lol

That's what it says on the LCD screen, which tells you the sound format.

Each time I watch a movie, I always look at the LCD to make sure it says the correct source format. And I either use DSU or NeuralX, so I literally TEST this on a DAILY basis.

I use KODI on my HTPC. And sometimes it changes my Audio to PCM! That's why I always check my LCD to make sure I am getting bitstream, not PCM. So I always make sure it says Dolby Atmos, DTSX, etc.

 

[Trebdp83]

Different makes and models will have different capabilities regarding up mixing signals. I thought at one point DSU did more than just Straight mode regarding Atmos tracks. Yamaha does not exclude the DSU option from the mode list when playing Atmos tracks even though it does nothing to it. Sounds like similar behavior regarding DTS and Auro 3D. For those that want the corresponding processing of signals such as Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D, STRAIGHT mode would be the way to go.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That's what it says on the LCD screen, which tells you the sound format.

Each time I watch a movie, I always look at the LCD to make sure it says the correct source format. And I either use DSU or NeuralX, so I literally TEST this on a DAILY basis.

I use KODI on my HTPC. And sometimes it changes my Audio to PCM! That's why I always check my LCD to make sure I am getting bitstream, not PCM. So I always make sure it says Dolby Atmos, DTSX, etc.

Right. But can you verify that you can apply DSU or DTSnx to an Atmos/dtsX track?
I don’t think you can.
For example. I just put on Moon Knight on my Atv since I know it has an Atmos track. My only sound mode options are Stereo, Atmos, and multichannel stereo. It’s the same for dtsx as well. The only way I know of applying DSU or DTSnx is to the base track, or obviously legacy tracks. Not the native immersive(Atmos/dtsX) track.
I tested this with both disks and streaming. If I remember correctly, which I don’t always, and why I’m asking, all the literature I’ve read mirrors what I said.
DSU and DTSnx cannot be applied to native immersive tracks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can you verify that you can apply DSU to an Atmos track?

This is what I wrote:
If the source is Atmos and I use DSU, I still get Atmos.

This tells me that DSU is NOT applied to the Atmos track.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Different makes and models will have different capabilities regarding up mixing signals. I thought at one point DSU did more than just Straight mode regarding Atmos tracks. Yamaha does not exclude the DSU option from the mode list when playing Atmos tracks even though it does nothing to it. Sounds like similar behavior regarding DTS and Auro 3D. For those that want the corresponding processing of signals such as Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D, STRAIGHT mode would be the way to go.

Why can’t Yamaha just do shitt normal???????
I mean why list it if it’s not doing anything. It just makes things confusing. Like this recent exchange with ADTG. He said he can apply those, and I don’t think you can. The truth(i think) is that it’s neither. And it just makes things unnecessarily confusing and complicated. I’m not trying to be a right fighter either. Just want the right information out there so people get it right is all.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is what I wrote:
If the source is Atmos and I use DSU, I still get Atmos.

This tells me that DSU is NOT applied to the Atmos track.

Ok gotcha. I might’ve missed that. I took you to mean that applying DSU would actually apply DSU in leu of the actual Atmos track.
Performance aside, this is one of the things that has always annoyed me about Yamaha. Being different to be different isn’t different. It’s dumb!!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok gotcha. I might’ve missed that. I took you to mean that applying DSU would actually apply DSU in leu of the actual Atmos track.
Performance aside, this is one of the things that has always annoyed me about Yamaha. Being different to be different isn’t different. It’s dumb!!!

What do you mean?

What's different?

BTW, I went from using Denon all my life to using Yamaha overnight and I didn't have any kind of issues at all.

Of course, there are different FEATURES among the different companies. For example, you can use Subwoofers in Pure Direct mode with Denon, but you can't with Yamaha. You have Audyssey Dynamic EQ with Denon, but not with Yamaha. But I don't see what is so significantly "DIFFERENT" other than features.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I just mean that they have their own ways of setting things up, and labeling things and it’s usually different than everyone else, and imo it’s not always for the better. I’m not knocking performance, just how they do things.
Like why can you “apply” DSU to an Atmos track if it doesn’t even do anything? Just things like that. Doesn’t make sense.

 

[Trebdp83]

Yikes, one issue at a time. Let's clear up "Pure Direct Mode." It is the go to mode for getting out exactly what is being put in with only volume level being adjustable. A subwoofer will be active in "Pure Direct Mode" if there is a 0.1 low frequency effects channel in the mix. No, it won't work with two channel PCM signals in this mode. If this is not the case with ANY new multi channel receiver, something is wrong with it.

I wish everybody had a "Straight" mode button. I hate cycling through different modes to get to the "Straight Up Decode" mode using my Onkyo. So, good on Yamaha for that one as it is available on the remote control and in the MusicCast app as well. They just need to keep up mixers out of the mix with their corresponding codecs. Don't make DSU selectable with Dolby Atmos tracks and confuse the s#%t out of people. Oh, and that silly f#%kin' multitude of silly sound modes, get rid of them! The amp assign and speaker configurations menus aren't very good. How about a proper LPF setting? Oh, and those manuals! Eh, it is what it is. They do seem to be the most capable regarding cross up mixing, though. Hey, smoke em' if you got em'!

 

[Replicant 7]

Yikes, one issue at a time. Let's clear up "Pure Direct Mode." It is the go to mode for getting out exactly what is being put in with only volume level being adjustable. A subwoofer will be active in "Pure Direct Mode" if there is a 0.1 low frequency effects channel in the mix. No, it won't work with two channel PCM signals in this mode. If this is not the case with ANY new multi channel receiver, something is wrong with it.

I wish everybody had a "Straight" mode button. I hate cycling through different modes to get to the "Straight Up Decode" mode using my Onkyo. So, good on Yamaha for that one as it is available on the remote control and in the MusicCast app as well. They just need to keep up mixers out of the mix with their corresponding codecs. Don't make DSU selectable with Dolby Atmos tracks and confuse the s#%t out of people. Oh, and that silly f#%kin' multitude of silly sound modes, get rid of them! The amp assign and speaker configurations menus aren't very good. How about a proper LPF setting? Oh, and those manuals! Eh, it is what it is. They do seem to be the most capable regarding cross up mixing, though. Hey, smoke em' if you got em'!

They can be turned off in settings. Well not exactly turned off, in settings for all those DSP bullsh$t modes can be set to (ON) they won't show up when your cycling through. They are still there just won't show up on your front display or OSD. But you can reheat leftovers with a Denon AVR or Marantz though, Oh and cook marshmallows over those two. Not that there's anything wrong with that, umm just different than Yamaha.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yikes, one issue at a time. Let's clear up "Pure Direct Mode." It is the go to mode for getting out exactly what is being put in with only volume level being adjustable. A subwoofer will be active in "Pure Direct Mode" if there is a 0.1 low frequency effects channel in the mix. No, it won't work with two channel PCM signals in this mode. If this is not the case with ANY new multi channel receiver, something is wrong with it.

I wish everybody had a "Straight" mode button. I hate cycling through different modes to get to the "Straight Up Decode" mode using my Onkyo. So, good on Yamaha for that one as it is available on the remote control and in the MusicCast app as well. They just need to keep up mixers out of the mix with their corresponding codecs. Don't make DSU selectable with Dolby Atmos tracks and confuse the s#%t out of people. Oh, and that silly f#%kin' multitude of silly sound modes, get rid of them! The amp assign and speaker configurations menus aren't very good. How about a proper LPF setting? Oh, and those manuals! Eh, it is what it is. They do seem to be the most capable regarding cross up mixing, though. Hey, smoke em' if you got em'!

Lmao! Yes. This covers much of it.
Also. Correct me if I’m wrong, D/M AVR’s can use the subs in direct, IF you set it up that way in the 2ch listening menu. For Marantz that is only the 701x series and higher.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

But you can reheat leftovers with a Denon AVR or Marantz though, Oh and cook marshmallows over those two.

Yep. Popcorn too! Don’t have to ever leave the living room. You’re just jealous! Lol

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A subwoofer will be active in "Pure Direct Mode" if there is a 0.1 low frequency effects channel in the mix. No, it won't work with two channel PCM signals in this mode. If this is not the case with ANY new multi channel receiver, something is wrong with it.

For Denon/Marantz PCM 2CH stereo, you can get 2.1CH (use Subwoofer) in PURE DIRECT mode. That is a FACT.

Now some people will say, "If that's the case, then it's NOT TRULY Pure Direct Mode!"

But thanks to my Karaoke hobby , I know for a fact that it is TRULY Pure Direct Mode.

Alright, for my Karaoke, whether it is a Denon or Yamaha, if I use anything other than Pure Direct (or Direct), I get this Sound Delay with the microphone.

This tells me that the sound is being further processed if you use Stereo, Straight, etc., which causes the sound delay.

When you use Pure Direct, the sound is NOT being further processed, and you do NOT get this Audio Delay.

If the Pure Direct were FAKE, then the sound would get further processed and you get this audio delay.

So with Denon/Marantz, when you use Pure Direct (no audio delay) you can still get SUBWOOFER management. With everyone else, you cannot get Subwoofer management when you use Pure Direct mode.

I have said this many times - the 2 features I absolutely love about Denon/Marantz and wish Yamaha would implement are 1) Pure Direct Mode Subwoofer Use and 2) Dynamic EQ.

 

[AVR Enthu]

Isn't it the case that PCM or LPCM input should play in any mode? PCM simply means that a source decodes whatever music codec and sends this decoded stream to AVR for playback.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For Denon/Marantz PCM 2CH stereo, you can get 2.1CH (use Subwoofer) in PURE DIRECT mode. That is a FACT.

Now some people will say, "If that's the case, then it's NOT TRULY Pure Direct Mode!"

But thanks to my Karaoke hobby , I know for a fact that it is TRULY Pure Direct Mode.

Alright, for my Karaoke, whether it is a Denon or Yamaha, if I use anything other than Pure Direct (or Direct), I get this Sound Delay with the microphone.

This tells me that the sound is being further processed if you use Stereo, Straight, etc., which causes the sound delay.

When you use Pure Direct, the sound is NOT being further processed, and you do NOT get this Audio Delay.

If the Pure Direct were FAKE, then the sound would get further processed and you get this audio delay.

So with Denon/Marantz, when you use Pure Direct (no audio delay) you can still get SUBWOOFER management. With everyone else, you cannot get Subwoofer management when you use Pure Direct mode.

I have said this many times - the 2 features I absolutely love about Denon/Marantz and wish Yamaha would implement are 1) Pure Direct Mode Subwoofer Use and 2) Dynamic EQ.

You are correct about the delay for sure. Stereo and straight use Audyssey and ypao. As far as subs and direct, I believe it’s only on 7/8000 Marantz and 4000and up denons. My 6012 does not allow for it. Wish it did! Don’t care about DEQ…

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Isn't it the case that PCM or LPCM input should play in any mode? PCM simply means that a source decodes whatever music codec and sends this decoded stream to AVR for playback.

If I follow the question…
Correct that pcm is decoded at the source and bitstream is decoded at the AVR. For Atmos and dtsX, they have to be sent via bitstream.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are correct about the delay for sure. Stereo and straight use Audyssey and ypao. As far as subs and direct, I believe it’s only on 7/8000 Marantz and 4000and up denons. My 6012 does not allow for it. Wish it did! Don’t care about DEQ…

I used to own a Denon X3000-series AVR (maybe X3100) that allowed Subwoofer use in Pure Direct mode.