Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

lc6

Junior Audioholic
Just for kicks... what does the same Amp board do if the power supply is different? What about the other features.

Believe, I'll join you with pitchforks and torches if there are shenanigans afoot, but like components where possible, is also part of good design and custs down on costs.

"The base horizontal layer uses 5.1 or 7.1 format, the height layer is on top of the base layer and its information is extracted from the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier."
WTF is "the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier"? DD is a lossy compressed format, not PCM.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Yeah I would agree independent sub out is the better reason for sure. I think the a4a is listed at 110.
Back when I picked up my Yamaha 3060, the main reason I went flagship was to get the most wattage out of an AVR without having to go to an outboard amp. I have not been disappointed by the power at all. Although I do think about the possibility of adding an amp though :rolleyes:
Yep, but that's into 2 channels @8 Ohm's. 5 and or 7 channels, probably more or less than 60 each?. So adding at least a 3 channel, ATi amp 200 X 3 @8 Ohm's continuously and let AVR drive the 2 or 4 surrounds. Adding a amp for headroom, dynamics at higher volume would surely help. Your power supply in your A3060 is bigger plus, you have more power at the rails. Plus your AVR has Pro DAC chips for all channels, plus well it's a flagship AVR, mines a wanta- be flagship AVR. In this GOT:D of AVR's ;) you either are, or you're not. I opened up my A4A, the power rails in your A3060 are much bigger, power supply bigger, caps a lot bigger, factor in the Pro chips for all channels plus the extra channels, yeah hands down smoke's just about any Denon or Marantz out there.;)
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
"The base horizontal layer uses 5.1 or 7.1 format, the height layer is on top of the base layer and its information is extracted from the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier."
WTF is "the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier"? DD is a lossy compressed format, not PCM.
There are several technologies here to unpack and not confuse, as those would works differently with Auro 3D.
1. Dolby Digital (5.1) and Dolby Digital Plus (7.1 and more) on their own - compressed audio, discrete channels
2. old Dolby Surround over PCM - stereo, uncompressed audio, with matrix surround, e.g. Pro Logic iterations
3. new Dolby Surround - replacement for Pro Logic; upmixes stereo and surround to play on Atmos configs

Auro 3D
The original text reads: "Auro-3D is an immersive 3D audio format developed by the Belgium-based company Auro Technologies. It consists of three layers of sound - surround, height and overhead ceiling. The base horizontal layer uses 5.1 or 7.1 format, the height layer is on top of the base layer and its information is extracted from the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier. The a/v receiver decoder then extracts this information during playback."

This makes sense in principle. In order to create Auro 3D sound field, AVR's algorithm could use PCM stereo signal or LPCM signal with descrete 5.1/7.1 channels and any metadata for heights and overherad. It's debatable how much could Auro 3D make listening a pleasant benefit from PCM with matrix surround over traditional speaker layout. Try at home and let us know. "Standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier" is unfortunate expression here, but we should see it as explained below.

PCM - uncompressed stereo
PCM can carry plain stereo and also older Dolby Surround/DPL, which is 2-channel stereo with the center and surround channels mixed in, so it will play as stereo or surround. This is an old school 5-channel set-up. Modern AVR or soundbar should be able to decode this and send it to the right places on the system. Everyone can play PCM stereo or PCM stereo with embeded Dolby Surround on 2, 5 or 7 speakers.

For Auro 3D, the question is once 5.1 Dolby Surround from PCM stereo signal is mapped on the base 5.1 layer, is there any different sound left to be heard from the heights? No. The heights could simply repeat what is already on the base layer if the output is set over 5.1 + 2 high speakers, the same as playing 5.1 track over 7.1 speakers.

Another example. PCM from a TV is almost always plain stereo or stereo with Dolby Surround (not to be confused with Dolby Digital). Most of the older non-HD core TV channels use Dolby Surround because the signal carries a hidden centre and rear surround field that is ignored by basic stereo-only capable gear. Soundbar or AVR would detect the hidden Dolby Surround and activate its Dolby ProLogic decoder (DPL or DPLII) and you might have the option of setting it to DPL II Movie/Music/Game.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
How much more is 150 watts compared to the A4A? I wouldn't think it amounts to much. I think independant sub outs would be a better reason.
In Gene's tests, seven speakers on A6A were getting up to 52W.
 

lc6

Junior Audioholic
There are several technologies here to unpack and not confuse, as those would works differently with Auro 3D.
1. Dolby Digital (5.1) and Dolby Digital Plus (7.1 and more) on their own - compressed audio, discrete channels
2. old Dolby Surround over PCM - stereo, uncompressed audio, with matrix surround, e.g. Pro Logic iterations
3. new Dolby Surround - replacement for Pro Logic; upmixes stereo and surround to play on Atmos configs

Auro 3D
The original text reads: "Auro-3D is an immersive 3D audio format developed by the Belgium-based company Auro Technologies. It consists of three layers of sound - surround, height and overhead ceiling. The base horizontal layer uses 5.1 or 7.1 format, the height layer is on top of the base layer and its information is extracted from the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier. The a/v receiver decoder then extracts this information during playback."

This makes sense in principle. In order to create Auro 3D sound field, AVR's algorithm could use PCM stereo signal or LPCM signal with descrete 5.1/7.1 channels and any metadata for heights and overherad. It's debatable how much could Auro 3D make listening a pleasant benefit from PCM with matrix surround over traditional speaker layout. Try at home and let us know. "Standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier" is unfortunate expression here, but we should see it as explained below.

PCM - uncompressed stereo
PCM can carry plain stereo and also older Dolby Surround/DPL, which is 2-channel stereo with the center and surround channels mixed in, so it will play as stereo or surround. This is an old school 5-channel set-up. Modern AVR or soundbar should be able to decode this and send it to the right places on the system. Everyone can play PCM stereo or PCM stereo with embeded Dolby Surround on 2, 5 or 7 speakers.

For Auro 3D, the question is once 5.1 Dolby Surround from PCM stereo signal is mapped on the base 5.1 layer, is there any different sound left to be heard from the heights? No. The heights could simply repeat what is already on the base layer if the output is set over 5.1 + 2 high speakers, the same as playing 5.1 track over 7.1 speakers.

Another example. PCM from a TV is almost always plain stereo or stereo with Dolby Surround (not to be confused with Dolby Digital). Most of the older non-HD core TV channels use Dolby Surround because the signal carries a hidden centre and rear surround field that is ignored by basic stereo-only capable gear. Soundbar or AVR would detect the hidden Dolby Surround and activate its Dolby ProLogic decoder (DPL or DPLII) and you might have the option of setting it to DPL II Movie/Music/Game.
This is a bunch of pseudo-technical gobbledygook. Auro 3D is based on uncompressed (PCM) 5.1 with an uncompressed height and optional top layers (see https://www.auro-3d.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/What-is-Auro-3D.pdf ). It is not based on some "extraction" of the height information from the ProLogic in stereo PCM or from the compressed DD 5.1 signal. Therefore, the statement "the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier" is meaningless.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
This is a bunch of pseudo-technical gobbledygook. Auro 3D is based on uncompressed (PCM) 5.1 with an uncompressed height and optional top layers (see https://www.auro-3d.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/What-is-Auro-3D.pdf ). It is not based on some "extraction" of the height information from the ProLogic in stereo PCM or from the compressed DD 5.1 signal. Therefore, the statement "the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier" is meaningless.
Lol, (gobbledygook) nice! Been telling him just about all of his recipes are pretty much goulash in the real world use. But he got some connections over in Japan.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
This is a bunch of pseudo-technical gobbledygook. Auro 3D is based on uncompressed (PCM) 5.1 with an uncompressed height and optional top layers (see https://www.auro-3d.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/What-is-Auro-3D.pdf ). It is not based on some "extraction" of the height information from the ProLogic in stereo PCM or from the compressed DD 5.1 signal. Therefore, the statement "the standard 5.1 surround PCM carrier" is meaningless.
The document you shared the link to does mention, quote: 'standard 5.1 PCM stream'. This would be meaningless too, if the word 'stream' is synonym with the word 'carrier'. Naming does not seem accidental, but it may sound confusing, I agree.

To simplify the gobbledygook, Auro 3D relies on original PCM mix for backwards compatibility with devices without Auro codec decoder. Original input could be mono, stereo, surround or Auro-3D file. Auro 3D engine would then use either decoder or upmixer to present original audio in Auro 3D speaker configuration.

auro-3d-audio-engine-2018-5a5fba975b6e2400381457e9.jpg
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Yamaha RX-A4A, (beautiful, to my eyes, music, to my ears) lol. Quote by this dude on YouTube, #hxosplus.
 
TheLamonster

TheLamonster

Audioholic Intern
If I'm enjoying native Auro content on my A8A, what is the difference between using the Auro surround decoder versus Straight mode?
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Senior Audioholic
If I'm enjoying native Auro content on my A8A, what is the difference between using the Auro surround decoder versus Straight mode?
Straight means it will play the source without any upmixing : stereo -> stereo (front speakers only), 5.1 -> 5.1 etc...
Straight will apply the room EQ correction while Pure will even skip any equalization/dsp room correction
Auro will preserve the source (stereo will be output on front speakers without any additional processing) but will extract information from the source to drive all the driven speakers. So you will experiment music using all your speakers, which result in my experience to a wider sound stage.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If I'm enjoying native Auro content on my A8A, what is the difference between using the Auro surround decoder versus Straight mode?
When you use Auro/Dolby/DTS Surround Decoder or UPMIXER, it will upmix everything to that.

Straight means it will use the DEFAULT surround decoder or Original Surround Sound Format.

For example, let's say the Source is Dolby Atmos. If you use Auro decoder, then it will take the Atmos and upmix it to Auro. If you use DTS NeuralX, then it will take Atmos and upmix to DTS NeuralX. If you use Straight, then it will PASS-THRU Dolby Atmos.

So when in doubt, use Straight to keep the ORIGINAL sound format.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
When you use Auro/Dolby/DTS Surround Decoder or UPMIXER, it will upmix everything to that.

Straight means it will use the DEFAULT surround decoder or Original Surround Sound Format.

For example, let's say the Source is Dolby Atmos. If you use Auro decoder, then it will take the Atmos and upmix it to Auro. If you use DTS NeuralX, then it will take Atmos and upmix to DTS NeuralX. If you use Straight, then it will PASS-THRU Dolby Atmos.

So when in doubt, use Straight to keep the ORIGINAL sound format.
Or, just let A.I. take over for all your movie surround, just use Auto setting for all your surround formats with A. I. That's what I do. For music in my setup, 2.1 some tone use depending on the CD or album. I don't use all channel stereo or any of the DSP for music, that's sacrilege in my book. Old school rock's! That's my roll!:D
 

lc6

Junior Audioholic
The document you shared the link to does mention, quote: 'standard 5.1 PCM stream'. This would be meaningless too, if the word 'stream' is synonym with the word 'carrier'. Naming does not seem accidental, but it may sound confusing, I agree.

To simplify the gobbledygook, Auro 3D relies on original PCM mix for backwards compatibility with devices without Auro codec decoder. Original input could be mono, stereo, surround or Auro-3D file. Auro 3D engine would then use either decoder or upmixer to present original audio in Auro 3D speaker configuration.

View attachment 55515
Upmixing, LOL. There is no embedded spatial, esp. height, info to be extracted from these mono, stereo or surround signals to be meaningfully reproduced in a multi-speaker setup. This is simply filtering and delaying some sounds to create a reverb simulating "spaciousness" which marketing misrepresents as "full 3D experience."
Similar to the BS on Denon's AVR site, where you can select a "DTS:X Pro" filter that results in 4 models, of which 3 do not support it in the actual specs.
 
TheLamonster

TheLamonster

Audioholic Intern
Appreciate the replies but let me rephrase the question - if I'm using native Auro content is there a difference between having it on the surround decoder setting versus straight or will it be the exact same either way? I guess the same question could apply to Atmos. Is it any different when using the Dolby upmixer versus Straight?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Appreciate the replies but let me rephrase the question - if I'm using native Auro content is there a difference between having it on the surround decoder setting versus straight or will it be the exact same either way? I guess the same question could apply to Atmos. Is it any different when using the Dolby upmixer versus Straight?
If I follow you, no. If the signal is Atmos, you can’t use the Dolby upmixer(dsu) since there’s nothing to upmix. As for Auro, I’m not sure. The difference might be that one uses ypao EQ settings and one does not. That is a total guess though.
As far as applying Auro to a native Atmos track, imo that is silly. While it will likely make the height speakers more active, it turns the object based Atmos track into a channel based one and therefore the 3d part of it(xyz object placement metadata) is tossed out. The sounds are still present, but it’s hard to say where they get placed. My interest in Auro is very small, and my AVR doesn’t support it. Maybe someone can add more practical information.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Appreciate the replies but let me rephrase the question - if I'm using native Auro content is there a difference between having it on the surround decoder setting versus straight or will it be the exact same either way? I guess the same question could apply to Atmos. Is it any different when using the Dolby upmixer versus Straight?
I can verify by looking at my AVR's front panel LCD. If the SOURCE is Atmos, the front panel will read "Dolby Atmos".

If the source is Atmos, I can use "Dolby Surround" (DSU) and still get Atmos.

If the source is DTSX, I can use "DTS NeuralX" and still get DTSX.

I don't know about Auro3D.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I can verify by looking at my AVR's front panel LCD. If the SOURCE is Atmos, the front panel will read "Dolby Atmos".

If the source is Atmos, I can use "Dolby Surround" (DSU) and still get Atmos.

If the source is DTSX, I can use "DTS NeuralX" and still get DTSX.

I don't know about Auro3D.
Afaik you cannot apply DSU to a native Atmos track. You can however use the base 7/5.1 track that way. Same for DTSnx.
Se? Or no…
 
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