Critique my system

[lovinthehd]

Truth! That’s why I keep fighting the fight. It might only pay off in my own little ecosystem but hey, that’s where I live lol.

Good luck for you and those that tolerate such in the meantime....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Good luck for you and those that tolerate such in the meantime....

Lol. Thanks!

 

[panteragstk]

Good luck for you and those that tolerate such in the meantime....

Funny thing for me is, I have nothing to tolerate other than her complete lack of desire to learn that she can just use this stuff whenever she wants. It's her house too.

I'm VERY lucky in that I don't really have WAF to deal with at all. If I don't mind the way something looks there is a 99.9% chance she doesn't either.

Now all I have to do is convince her that me buying yet another sub isn't a dumb idea at all.

It is though.

 

[Pogre]

Funny thing for me is, I have nothing to tolerate other than her complete lack of desire to learn that she can just use this stuff whenever she wants. It's her house too.

I'm VERY lucky in that I don't really have WAF to deal with at all. If I don't mind the way something looks there is a 99.9% chance she doesn't either.

Now all I have to do is convince her that me buying yet another sub isn't a dumb idea at all.

It is though.

I lost my remote for our FireTV last week and it still hasn't turned up. I ordered a new remote, only to realize it won't connect to the FireTV because the old remote is still somewhere in the house and still connected.

Why am I telling you this? We've been using the Xbox 1X instead and it's a different controller.

My wife cannot figure out how to use it and is being very difficult about learning.

I need to find that remote. I figured it'd turn up by now but it hasn't!

 

[panteragstk]

I lost my remote for our FireTV last week and it still hasn't turned up. I ordered a new remote, only to realize it won't connect to the FireTV because the old remote is still somewhere in the house and still connected.

Why am I telling you this? We've been using the Xbox 1X instead and it's a different controller.

My wife cannot figure out how to use it and is being very difficult about learning.

I need to find that remote. I figured it'd turn up by now but it hasn't!

Hilarious, and too familiar. Now you know why all three main rooms we watch TV in have the exact same harmony remote. Only the master bedroom TV is different, and IR, so she gets frustrated.

If you know how many different systems that work completely different ways I've put her through, you'd give her a medal. She's quite happy now that things just work and I don't have to tinker...often.

However, I have decided to make some changes to my systems, but only by moving some stuff around. I'll start a thread.

 

[bsf]

I lost my remote for our FireTV last week and it still hasn't turned up. I ordered a new remote, only to realize it won't connect to the FireTV because the old remote is still somewhere in the house and still connected.

Why am I telling you this? We've been using the Xbox 1X instead and it's a different controller.

My wife cannot figure out how to use it and is being very difficult about learning.

I need to find that remote. I figured it'd turn up by now but it hasn't!

PSA SUBS?

 

[ryanosaur]

PSA SUBS?

What do you want to know about them.
I'm biased, by the way. I understand that these Pro Sub Drivers are not really designed to create infrasonic content. Depending on the Free Air Resonance of the Driver (Fs of the Driver T/S Parameters), most of these Drivers have an Fs in the 30-40Hz area. To produce meaningful output below that frequency requires Gobs of Power and DSP management. These Drivers are very expensive with one of the best 21" Divers on the market selling for almost $900 retail.
PSA uses B&C Drivers... not inexpensive, either.
But that's neither here nor there.
What matters is that there are no 3rd Party Measurements, nor has Tom supplied us with any measurements in the last two tears despite advertising that they are coming.
He claims these Subs will perform down to 12-14Hz in room. Cool.
I don't believe it, that they can do that, with any true linearity and low distortion.

Don't get me wrong, I want to believe, but I also have studied Speaker design and get that these Drivers just don't perform that way.

They can do amazing things, certainly. Within their designed purpose, above the Fs number, they are ridiculously efficient and can play very loud with little power.

Anyway... as I said, I'm biased. Until I see some valid third party measurements (and not some dude with a Sub in his basement taking in-room sweeps with REW) I cannot in good conscience recommend these.
*shrugs

 

[Verdinut]

I agree with @ryanosaur when he says that the B & C subwoofers, as the manufacturer classifies them, are not real subwoofers. For some of them, their Fs starts at 29 Hz which is incompatible with the efficient production of infrasonic frequencies.

 

[Pogre]

PSA SUBS?

I defer to Ryan and Verdi on that. They know more about PSA than I do.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Idk…I’ll play devil’s advocate. I’ve followed the PSA thread off and on and I’ve read a great deal of user’s experiences chronicling how good the PSA subs are. Lots of them had previously been using pb16’s too. And yes some even have graphs too. I do wish Tom would send some units out for test/review. But on the occasions that I’ve talked to him, I felt he was honest, and a total wealth of knowledge. I know what he’s doing is unconventional, but there must be something to it?!?! There was a time I wouldn’t say this, but I’d buy a PSA before an svs. And I am an svs owner.

 

[ryanosaur]

To respect my Friend's post above, I am not suggesting that Tom does not know what he is doing, nor that he is a bad designer.
That said, you HAVE to pay the Butcher for your cut of meat, and that Butcher can't give your rack extra ribs, we can't make a Choice cut Prime...
But we can lie to you!

Yes, I did some Butchery in my day.

What does that have to do with Subwoofers?
Size, Efficiency, Extension.
Those are the traditional rules a Speaker designer has to work with. You get to pick TWO. The THIRD is OFF THE TABLE.

There are ways to game things a bit when using well designed Drivers and DSP. I don't look at this as elegance, rather it's more like putting a Shock Collar on your Doberman.

Some of these Pro Drivers can be pushed, and they can be pushed hard. The NSW 6021 can take 5000W Peak! You CAN push it into infrasonic territory, but at what cost?
The same goes for any pro Driver. These machines have some insane Motors, but they still have to obey some rules along the way.

Until I see some true measurements of those Subs, I have questions. The Cabinets aren't large enough, the Amps aren't powerful enough, and the Drivers are not designed for LF and especially Infrasonic output. Yes, these Drivers are the darling of the DIY scene, and they are getting used everywhere.
Go to GSG: they are advertising Pro Drivers for most of their product line.

@JasonGSG ... Perhaps you can shed some light on how these pro drivers really work for infrasonic content, please?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

To respect my Friend's post above, I am not suggesting that Tom does not know what he is doing, nor that he is a bad designer.
That said, you HAVE to pay the Butcher for your cut of meat, and that Butcher can't give your rack extra ribs, we can't make a Choice cut Prime...
But we can lie to you!

Yes, I did some Butchery in my day.

What does that have to do with Subwoofers?
Size, Efficiency, Extension.
Those are the traditional rules a Speaker designer has to work with. You get to pick TWO. The THIRD is OFF THE TABLE.

There are ways to game things a bit when using well designed Drivers and DSP. I don't look at this as elegance, rather it's more like putting a Shock Collar on your Doberman.

Some of these Pro Drivers can be pushed, and they can be pushed hard. The NSW 6021 can take 5000W Peak! You CAN push it into infrasonic territory, but at what cost?
The same goes for any pro Driver. These machines have some insane Motors, but they still have to obey some rules along the way.

Until I see some true measurements of those Subs, I have questions. The Cabinets aren't large enough, the Amps aren't powerful enough, and the Drivers are not designed for LF and especially Infrasonic output. Yes, these Drivers are the darling of the DIY scene, and they are getting used everywhere.
Go to GSG: they are advertising Pro Drivers for most of their product line.

@JasonGSG ... Perhaps you can shed some light on how these pro drivers really work for infrasonic content, please?

Indeed my friend, I believe your questions are at the very least, relevant and poignant. I believe you are referring to Hoffmann’s iron law, and I agree with that. I would be remiss if I didn’t say that I’d like to see some real true testing. That said, some of the guys that have shared their experiences and measurements I don’t find to be incompetent. I’m definitely not confusing those measurements with outdoor ground plane with a full barrage of compression sweeps, but what I saw impressed me. And I have zero doubt what so that those drivers are better than anything svs is using. Can’t speak to cab size and efficiency etc.
maybe we should start a POT and have everyone pitch in to buy a PSA sub, have shady test it, and somebody win it at the end!

 

[Pogre]

There are ways to game things a bit when using well designed Drivers and DSP. I don't look at this as elegance, rather it's more like putting a Shock Collar on your Doberman.

I believe @TLS Guy would call it "an inelegant brute force solution".

*PS, done my fair share of butchering in my days as well.

 

[ryanosaur]

maybe we should start a POT and have everyone pitch in to buy a PSA sub, have shady test it, and somebody win it at the end!

I think this had come up as an idea before. I jsut don't know if Shady wants to play with 150# Speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

*PS, done my fair share of butchering in my days as well.

i was thinking about you when I wrote that.

 

[Pogre]

I think this had come up as an idea before. I jsut don't know if Shady wants to play with 150# Speakers.

Pft. Shady. Send that bad boy to me! I don't mind handling it. Well... that is unless you expect me to drag it out to the park/field, put it up on a ladder and...

I think I just talked myself out of it. Not to mention my testing wouldn't be nearly as thorough as Shady's...

 

[ryanosaur]

Pft. Shady. Send that bad boy to me! I don't mind handling it. Well... that is unless you expect me to drag it out to the park/field, put it up on a ladder and...

I think I just talked myself out of it. Not to mention my testing wouldn't be nearly as thorough as Shady's...

No... We ahve to get Gene to want to buy Shady a plane ticket to and from my place.

I'll help him move it, got a good field for Ground Plane.

We can do this.

Now... we just need 3-Large to get the Subwoofer.



Who's got the credit card?

 

[Pogre]

So if I have it straight; PSA use expensive, high performance, high power handling pro drivers with rated f3 of between 30 and 40 hz? Then sticks them into small-ish for-the-size-of-the-drivers sealed cabinets and uses a bunch of dsp and power to coax out the lower, infrasonic frequencies?

What some of you are questioning are the size of the cabinets and apparent lack of power in the amps they use to achieve said dsp-coaxed ulf performance?

 

[ryanosaur]

small-ish for-the-size-of-the-drivers sealed and vented cabinets and uses a bunch of dsp

Yes.

and power

Not so much.

What some of you are questioning are the size of the cabinets and apparent lack of power in the amps they use to achieve said dsp-coaxed ulf performance?

You mean, ME. But, yes... you have the gist of it.

 

[Pogre]

Yes.

Not so much.

You mean, ME. But, yes... you have the gist of it.

Those do seem to be some questionable design choices. I get the skepticism. They are also sensitive drivers too tho, right? I guess my biggest sticking point would be how drivers not designed for infrasonics behave at those frequencies. Especially in vented cabs. They must use a crapload of dsp and bank on sensitivity and strong motors to pick up the slack.

They do have a very strong following tho, so they must be doing something right. Their aesthetic reminds me a little bit of JTR.