Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

[ryanosaur]

Could someone please point me in the right direction for a basic beginner's guide to using REW to make my system sound better? YPAO is fine but most people recommend a UMIK-1 on a Dayton UMM-6 on a tripod microphone stand with REW or TrueRTA but all of it intimidates me and most of what I've found assumes you have some knowledge of it but it still reads like Greek to me most of the time.

 

[Pogre]

I haven't seen either one of these videos, but can see it being a lot easier to grasp watching someone actually do it. Ima save and watch these later. I might learn something too!

 

[OldAndSlowDev]

I have a feeling, in a properly set up dbt, level matched that you would not be able to tell the difference between the Denon and the Yamaha. Any of the measured differences between them are functionally inaudible. Good bass is room and placement dependant. If there are audible differences it would lie in differences in room correction and/or eq applied.

At the core, level matched, operated within spec and everything else being equal I've yet to see a single example of someone being able to tell any difference in a dbt. They always disappear when the rubber hits the road.

Not sure you would have been able to make my Denon that was from 2000 sounding like the 2021 Yamaha. I am not comparing bass here, I don't have subwoofer (well actually I have one for the last two hours) so I was comparing listening to stereo music. But don't get me wrong, I was speaking about a SPECIFIC, OLD, Denon amp compared to the current top of the line Yamaha receiver. I am not in Sound United/Yamaha war thing... Just comparing two specific amps (the only ones I owned). My old Denon was seriously lacking detail, dynamism, punch, range, compared to the Yamaha. Progress were done, and that's great.

 

[Replicant 7]

Not sure you would have been able to make my Denon that was from 2000 sounding like the 2021 Yamaha. I am not comparing bass here, I don't have subwoofer (well actually I have one for the last two hours) so I was comparing listening to stereo music. But don't get me wrong, I was speaking about a SPECIFIC, OLD, Denon amp compared to the current top of the line Yamaha receiver. I am not in Sound United/Yamaha war thing... Just comparing two specific amps (the only ones I owned). My old Denon was seriously lacking detail, dynamism, punch, range, compared to the Yamaha. Progress were done, and that's great.

Oh same here, Denon, Marantz, has some very nice AVR's out and with all things being equal, more than likely sound the same.

 

[diablo676]

Don’t tell the wife (oh that’s ok, we are separated), I instantaneously ordered a second sub

Good luck with getting the two set up right.

I got my SVS SB2000 Pro working great. But getting the 3000 Micro to join in pleasantly has taken few hours today - but not good yet. I have moved it to the position that REW Room Sim suggests and a bit better, but will be moving it around a bit tomorrow. The absolute best place suggested by the room sim is right in the doorway!

 

[Pogre]

Not sure you would have been able to make my Denon that was from 2000 sounding like the 2021 Yamaha. I am not comparing bass here, I don't have subwoofer (well actually I have one for the last two hours) so I was comparing listening to stereo music. But don't get me wrong, I was speaking about a SPECIFIC, OLD, Denon amp compared to the current top of the line Yamaha receiver. I am not in Sound United/Yamaha war thing... Just comparing two specific amps (the only ones I owned). My old Denon was seriously lacking detail, dynamism, punch, range, compared to the Yamaha. Progress were done, and that's great.

Oh I'd say the same thing about any of them. I'm not on about Yamaha Denon thing. It's a placebo expectation bias thing.

That said, a unit in service for 20 years could well be out of spec and that would make sense. However, if still in spec I'd still argue it'd be difficult, if not impossible to tell the difference in a proper dbt aside from differences in eq or room correction used. Amplifier tech has been around for a long time and they made great sounding amps back then too. In your case with replacing a 20 year old unit, I can believe there were some audible improvements.

 

[chapp]

Oh same here, Denon, Marantz, has some very nice AVR's out and with all things being equal, more than likely sound the same.

Even the Denon and Marantz has their own specific Engineers to create a difference in the sound. These guys spend a lot of time tuning in order to attain a certain sound from the respective platform. Thus, they do not sound the same. The Marantz line is closer to the Yamaha, but the Denon is not. Tried and proven, but if you can't hear the difference, then no sweat.

 

[OldAndSlowDev]

Good luck with getting the two set up right.

I got my SVS SB2000 Pro working great. But getting the 3000 Micro to join in pleasantly has taken few hours today - but not good yet. I have moved it to the position that REW Room Sim suggests and a bit better, but will be moving it around a bit tomorrow. The absolute best place suggested by the room sim is right in the doorway!

In my case my setup is more stereo oriented, the subs are mainly there to provide the lows my 704s aren't able to reproduce. Right now my sub isn't even linked to LFE to the amp. Just using the high level. It's awesome. And saying REL are easy to integrate is an understatement. I just turned the knob to get the correct crossover, checked the phase (didn't thought it would have been such obvious to detect that your sub isn't moving the same way your speakers), and voilà ! I am enjoying my music a order of magnitude more ! Not saying I can't now improve the settings, but it's like I have added a 10inches driver to my columns...

Can't wait to dig more and more... but have to work a little bit (or to pretend I am working while I am only thinking about music)

 

[Pogre]

Even the Denon and Marantz has their own specific Engineers to create a difference in the sound. These guys spend a lot of time tuning in order to attain a certain sound from the respective platform. Thus, they do not sound the same. The Marantz line is closer to the Yamaha, but the Denon is not. Tried and proven, but if you can't hear the difference, then no sweat.

They spend a lot of time making them as accurate and transparent as possible. Designing a sound signature into an amp would be making it inaccurate. All else being equal and operated within spec it's highly unlikely anyone would be able to tell a difference between the big manufacturers in a dbt. Any of the measured differences between them are functionally inaudible.

 

[Pogre]

The Marantz line is closer to the Yamaha, but the Denon is not.

Marantz and Denon are made by the same company and in some cases have almost identical internals!

 

[Replicant 7]

Even the Denon and Marantz has their own specific Engineers to create a difference in the sound. These guys spend a lot of time tuning in order to attain a certain sound from the respective platform. Thus, they do not sound the same. The Marantz line is closer to the Yamaha, but the Denon is not. Tried and proven, but if you can't hear the difference, then no sweat.

Never owned a Denon, have audition some at BestBuy, and other places. Denon 4700H, sounded really good to me. Marantz, NAD, H/K, Arcom and a few other's. I'm just speaking for me cause others like what they like. Yamaha is my go to I've owned many going back to the 80's. Tried out just about everything I could afford. From Pioneer, Onkyo, Sony ES. Even separates, had the big power amps monoblocks, 2 channel 5 channel. Sold them all off at my age and my room size it was over kill.

 

[chapp]

Marantz and Denon are made by the same company and in some cases have almost identical internals!

This is a know fact, but you are clearly misinformed as to the end result of tuning of the various components to attain a certain "sound" You need to do some research in this manner. I suggest to listen to the Sound United training videos on You Tube. Phil has some good presentations that'll clear all this up. Anyway I am beginning to see that you believe what you believe to be true. I guess my years of being a Research Engineer and Professor means that I'll stick to what I know is tested and proven. I used to test equipment for a living.

2020 Marantz SR Series - Part 1 The Marantz Difference - YouTube


And then there is Yamaha vs Denon vs Marantz



If you want proof, you may find it on your own.

 

[Pogre]

This is a know fact, but you are clearly misinformed as to the end result of tuning of the various components to attain a certain "sound" You need to do some research in this manner. I suggest to listen to the Sound United training videos on You Tube. Phil has some good presentations that'll clear all this up. Anyway I am beginning to see that you believe what you believe to be true. I guess my years of being a Research Engineer and Professor means that I'll stick to what I know is tested and proven. I used to test equipment for a living.

Oh, perhaps you can link me to a study or dbt proving these different sound signatures then? I'm open to evidence.

 

[Replicant 7]

This is a know fact, but you are clearly misinformed as to the end result of tuning of the various components to attain a certain "sound" You need to do some research in this manner. I suggest to listen to the Sound United training videos on You Tube. Phil has some good presentations that'll clear all this up. Anyway I am beginning to see that you believe what you believe to be true. I guess my years of being a Research Engineer and Professor means that I'll stick to what I know is tested and proven. I used to test equipment for a living.

View attachment 51702

Interesting,

 

[Pogre]

Interesting,

This is even more interesting when you actually go apples to apples... The X4700H,

And the SR6015,

Are virtually identical. Even the way the boards are laid out. Huh.

 

[OldAndSlowDev]

This is even more interesting. The X4700H,

View attachment 51705

And the SR6015,

View attachment 51706

Are virtually identical. Even the way the boards are laid out. Huh.

It's obviously the same amp, the same chassis, the same back panel. I think the power transformer aren't the same...
Edit : maybe exactly the same, just replacing the red by the blue tape...

 

[Pogre]

It's obviously the same amp, the same chassis, the same back panel. I think the power transformer aren't the same...
Edit : maybe exactly the same, just replacing the red by the blue tape...

Marantz does employ their HDAM chip in there somewhere, for better or worse, but they really are virtually identical. The earlier pic posted was just a red herring. The SR8015 is another level up from the Denon X6700H so it's not really an apples to apples comparison. A better comparison with the SR8015 would be the Denon X8500H.

 

[3db]

This is a know fact, but you are clearly misinformed as to the end result of tuning of the various components to attain a certain "sound" You need to do some research in this manner. I suggest to listen to the Sound United training videos on You Tube. Phil has some good presentations that'll clear all this up. Anyway I am beginning to see that you believe what you believe to be true. I guess my years of being a Research Engineer and Professor means that I'll stick to what I know is tested and proven. I used to test equipment for a living.

If you want proof, you may find it on your own.

Dr Floyd Toole mentions in his book in passing that electronics do NOT impart a sonic signature. He's been at this game a lot longer than anyone and would know. You being a research engineer and logically speaking, should know that imparting a manufacturer's house sound would contradict what amplifiers have been designed to do, amplify cleanly without skewing the signal towards a house sound. Another word of caution is putting belief in what the marketing department says. The markerting department regardless of vendor is designed to do one thing, SELL. And marketing departments will use pseudo science, misappropriate and miss use engineering terms, basically lie to sell their products. And why is that? Because they know there are gullable audiophiles just waiting to eat up the jargon and spend their money. Pogre hit the nail on the head stating that everytime you challenge an audiophile to a controlled blind listening test, they pass.

What kind of equipment did you test and what was the protocol used around the tests?

 

[chapp]

If you are going through a multitude of variations to alter the outcome of a certain equipment, then you are defeating the true purpose of the unit and delving away from what the main purpose of the equipment was designed for or reasonable expectations. This is why simplicity for layman's is set at "Best" Best is an Engineering term used for end result for the consumer best practice. I am tired of and done with this topic. rather go listen to some good old vinyls for the rest of the evening that debating trivial stuff. Stay safe.

 

[Pogre]

If you are going through a multitude of variations to alter the outcome of a certain equipment, then you are defeating the true purpose of the unit and delving away from what the main purpose of the equipment was designed for or reasonable expectations.

My expectation is accuracy and transparency. Any deviation from that, like a sound signature, would not be in line with the goal.