Fewer jobs … More machines

highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Why did you have to post a pet peeve of mine while I'm braising duck breast? The the property market went totally bananas in the last couple of decades in many countries, but these comparisons misses at least this:

1) No account of real interest rate i.e. interest rate after inflation
2) Heavy tax subsides of home "owner ship".
If the value of that house skyrocketed to £650K, that's the government's fault for creating the inflation in the first place. However, the area nearby may have improved to a level that makes this possible. Gentrification causes that and Milwaukee has areas where the homes sold for $20K in the 1970s, but the property tax grew to such an extent that they could no longer pay for that, even if they had no remaining loan. I have written many times about how Milwaukee is run and this is part of the result. I live in a small city (suburb) of Milwaukee and my property tax is about twice as much as I paid when I bought the house. It's nothing special, but the area is nice, if you can forget about the criminals coming in to raise hell. I have a friend in the adjoining county whose house is larger and on a lot that's close to an acre- he pays about 65% of my tax bill and his insurance is lower, too.

WRT the heavy subsidies for homeowners, the government like people to feel good about themselves and home ownership helps with that but during Jimmy Carter's term as President, Congress came up with a way for people to buy a house without the boring stuff like A) good credit rating and references, B) enough income, C) likely higher future earning and D) enough money to maintain the place. Fast forward to Clinton and the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed- it was enacted in 1933, to prohibit bankers from using depositors' money to pursue high-risk investments, but the act was effectively undercut by looser restrictions. Those practices led to the Great Depression and by loosening restrictions/repealing this Act, it created an environment where bad loans could be bundled and sold as an investment opportunity. It was risky, but when people see dollar signs, they lose their minds but hey, mortgages are insured, right? Sure, they are. Why should the idiots selling these care about defaulted mortgages when someone else can be left to clean up the mess? Warnings came out in the early-2000s, with George W Bush being one of the people to sound the alarms. A program about Countrywide Mortgage was shown on the Public Broadcasting Network and in one section, a former employee told of starting his job and seeing a Porche 911 at the front row of the reserved parking spaces with 'FUNDUM' on the license plate. He asked what it meant and was told "If they can fog a spoon, FUNDUM" (give them the loan). The CEO of a major mortgage insurer went to Congress and testified that if it wasn't changed, the US would be seeing financial problems as never before and they basically ignored him, partially because of some members of Congress- Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Franklin Raines were in positions that allowed them to control things in this area. FannieMae & FreddieMac are government run enterprises that are run as a business that operated at high risk and the CEO I mentioned started a group called 'Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Must Die'. They didn't and the world suffered because of it. They were a good idea, but the plan was corrupted- it was supposed to combat monopolization of the mortgage industry.

https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/glass-steagall-act

 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Did he sound the alarm before or after the tax breaks for buying Hummers? Clinton just kept the Reagan/Bush ball rolling. That f#%ker was too busy f#%kin’ the help to look at everything they put in front of him to sign and G.W. was too f#%kin’ drunk. D.C. is a stable full of horses asses. Some go there and think the stalls on the left stink. Some go there and think the stalls on the right stink. They’re all full of s#%t! So, go grab a f#%kin’ shovel cuz’ none of them are gonna’ clean it up. To get back on topic, machines are wonderful. If only they would come up with one to keep stupid people from reproducing so that we wouldn’t have to worry about creating jobs for their idiot offspring. Even if they did, the pro-lifers would lose their s#%t. Those people have no sense of humor, or jobs for that matter. How can they hold one down? They spend all day in front of Planned Parenthood and they have too many f#%kin’ kids!
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... i had a savings account that paid 5% when i was a kid......
Yep, and I remember mortgages at what, 16% not that long ago? And inflation up there as well. Or was it that long ago. ;)
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
Yep, and I remember mortgages at what, 16% not that long ago? And inflation up there as well. Or was it that long ago. ;)
mortgages are a whole different matter..;).. you might correct me if i'm wrong.. (i'll check though) .. i don't think inflation was all that bad in the 80's .. the 70's of course was a bit different, although mostly it wasn't that bad then either .. we complain about 5% inflation when the (induced ) average is 2%... and they try to keep it there...EDIT: the mortgages you are referring to aren't those junk interest only loans of the last decade? .. i don't own a house (never could afford one) .. but if you are , you are definitely making my point for me.. there's a (million) sucker(s) born every year .. and a buncha snake oil thieves ready to take their money.. thanks again mainly to deregulation.. thanks congress
 
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L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
If the value of that house skyrocketed to £650K, that's the government's fault for creating the inflation in the first place. However, the area nearby may have improved to a level that makes this possible. Gentrification causes that and Milwaukee has areas where the homes sold for $20K in the 1970s, but the property tax grew to such an extent that they could no longer pay for that, even if they had no remaining loan. I have written many times about how Milwaukee is run and this is part of the result. I live in a small city (suburb) of Milwaukee and my property tax is about twice as much as I paid when I bought the house. It's nothing special, but the area is nice, if you can forget about the criminals coming in to raise hell. I have a friend in the adjoining county whose house is larger and on a lot that's close to an acre- he pays about 65% of my tax bill and his insurance is lower, too.

WRT the heavy subsidies for homeowners, the government like people to feel good about themselves and home ownership helps with that but during Jimmy Carter's term as President, Congress came up with a way for people to buy a house without the boring stuff like A) good credit rating and references, B) enough income, C) likely higher future earning and D) enough money to maintain the place. Fast forward to Clinton and the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed- it was enacted in 1933, to prohibit bankers from using depositors' money to pursue high-risk investments, but the act was effectively undercut by looser restrictions. Those practices led to the Great Depression and by loosening restrictions/repealing this Act, it created an environment where bad loans could be bundled and sold as an investment opportunity. It was risky, but when people see dollar signs, they lose their minds but hey, mortgages are insured, right? Sure, they are. Why should the idiots selling these care about defaulted mortgages when someone else can be left to clean up the mess? Warnings came out in the early-2000s, with George W Bush being one of the people to sound the alarms. A program about Countrywide Mortgage was shown on the Public Broadcasting Network and in one section, a former employee told of starting his job and seeing a Porche 911 at the front row of the reserved parking spaces with 'FUNDUM' on the license plate. He asked what it meant and was told "If they can fog a spoon, FUNDUM" (give them the loan). The CEO of a major mortgage insurer went to Congress and testified that if it wasn't changed, the US would be seeing financial problems as never before and they basically ignored him, partially because of some members of Congress- Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Franklin Raines were in positions that allowed them to control things in this area. FannieMae & FreddieMac are government run enterprises that are run as a business that operated at high risk and the CEO I mentioned started a group called 'Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Must Die'. They didn't and the world suffered because of it. They were a good idea, but the plan was corrupted- it was supposed to combat monopolization of the mortgage industry.

https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/glass-steagall-act

that whole history is interesting... it all basically boils down to congressional bank deregulation though...correct?.. love them republicans... and yes , i know that a buncha dems(including the ones you listed + our dear current pres. candidate are also hip deep in the muck)... so lets lay the blame where it belongs: stupid people + an inherently corrupt govt run by the economy of greed...since you brought it up i did a little looking .. seems the congress was just fulla republicans when glass./ steagall was repealed so how about a more even keeled review of the actual history of events?.. although you admittedly hide your right wing views at an acceptable level to not offend those that can't read between the lines .. :)
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
mortgages are a whole different matter..;).. you might correct me if i'm wrong.. (i'll check though) .. i don't think inflation was all that bad in the 80's .. the 70's of course was a bit different, although mostly it wasn't that bad then either .. we complain about 5% inflation when the (induced ) average is 2%... and they try to keep it there...EDIT: the mortgages you are referring to aren't those junk interest only loans of the last decade? .. i don't own a house (never could afford one) .. but if you are , you are definitely making my point for me.. there's a (million) sucker(s) born every year .. and a buncha snake oil thieves ready to take their money.. thanks again mainly to deregulation.. thanks congress
Here you go:

1979, 1980 1901 was bad, and a few other years before. ;)
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
Here you go:

1979, 1980 1901 was bad, and a few other years before. ;)
sure , i get it, but you leave out that interest rates work both ways... savings rates (without looking it up , but i'd bet) were up.. did wages go up...?? .. i'm sure *my* minimum wage didn't go up much...so where's the corruption?.. once again.. our political system.. seems to be a trend.. every real F.U . to the common worker is based in lobbied ,corrupt legislation... it ain't about republican vs democrat.. it's about the avg. guy vs a corrupt system that is run by billionaires with 501(c)3's that rarely pay taxes .. i literally could go on all day about the abortion of democracy our govt has become... but that's where i came in...
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
Here you go:

1979, 1980 1901 was bad, and a few other years before. ;)
Well I can vouch for 1980, the year before I got married and I bought our first house ... my future wife brought along her winning smile ... at a 16.4% interest rate on a 30-year mortgage. o_O And to top it off in those days you had to put 25% down before the banks would even talk to you.

Ah, good times! ... not. :mad:

Eating a whole lot of chicken & pasta most of the week and then we splurged on Sunday's by invading my parents house in a timely fashion to have some meat. My father claimed he saw me more then, compared to when I lived at home. :D

We were lucky compared to a lot of our friends who got married around the same time. All but a few had to settle for an apartment before buying their first homes 3 to 4 years later, with the help of a cash infusion from their parents. A luxury we didn't get from our parents, who believed in you had to make it on your own, to appreciate the sacrifices you make for your family. Lesson learned. :p

These were the lean years before 'easy money' from the banks 15 to 20 years later. Which would eventually lead to the housing bubble and its aftermath, the 'Great Recession' of 2008.

And from what I'm seeing and hearing from my daughter, who's in mortgage financing, it's happening all over again right now.

Have we learned nothing?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
that whole history is interesting... it all basically boils down to congressional bank deregulation though...correct?.. love them republicans... and yes , i know that a buncha dems(including the ones you listed + our dear current pres. candidate are also hip deep in the muck)... so lets lay the blame where it belongs: stupid people + an inherently corrupt govt run by the economy of greed...since you brought it up i did a little looking .. seems the congress was just fulla republicans when glass./ steagall was repealed so how about a more even keeled review of the actual history of events?.. although you admittedly hide your right wing views at an acceptable level to not offend those that can't read between the lines .. :)
Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall and if you know anything about those in investment banking, you would know it's heavily populated by Democrats. If it was bad legislation (and it was), Clinton should have sent it back to Congress, but he didn't. That repeal led directly to the collapse, but another part of it was the greed in the lending institutions that allowed people to buy houses when they didn't have a hope of paying the mortgage over the long haul. I generally have a major distrust of the investment 'industry' and no, I'm not hard right wing- I think people need to be honest with themselves and take responsibility for their actions. Greed has no conscience, nor does it reside in only one political aisle. Even Socialists and Communists can be greedy but the ones who are successful in the last two are usually at the top of the food chain in their party.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Did he sound the alarm before or after the tax breaks for buying Hummers? Clinton just kept the Reagan/Bush ball rolling. That f#%ker was too busy f#%kin’ the help to look at everything they put in front of him to sign and G.W. was too f#%kin’ drunk. D.C. is a stable full of horses asses. Some go there and think the stalls on the left stink. Some go there and think the stalls on the right stink. They’re all full of s#%t! So, go grab a f#%kin’ shovel cuz’ none of them are gonna’ clean it up. To get back on topic, machines are wonderful. If only they would come up with one to keep stupid people from reproducing so that we wouldn’t have to worry about creating jobs for their idiot offspring. Even if they did, the pro-lifers would lose their s#%t. Those people have no sense of humor, or jobs for that matter. How can they hold one down? They spend all day in front of Planned Parenthood and they have too many f#%kin’ kids!
C'mon, don't sugar coat it- how do you really feel?
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall and if you know anything about those in investment banking, you would know it's heavily populated by Democrats. If it was bad legislation (and it was), Clinton should have sent it back to Congress, but he didn't. That repeal led directly to the collapse, but another part of it was the greed in the lending institutions that allowed people to buy houses when they didn't have a hope of paying the mortgage over the long haul. I generally have a major distrust of the investment 'industry' and no, I'm not hard right wing- I think people need to be honest with themselves and take responsibility for their actions. Greed has no conscience, nor does it reside in only one political aisle. Even Socialists and Communists can be greedy but the ones who are successful in the last two are usually at the top of the food chain in their party.
we just keep going around in circles huh... you really think you know more than i do ?.. i'll give you that on banking regs ... and the answer i would give is "so"?? you clearly don't know more than i do about how washington works (a great example of that is the obvious denial of "deregulation"as the catch all(republican) fix to the economy).. how did that bill get to Clinton? the REPUBLICAN *controlled* congress put it on his desk a few months after their failed hostile coup attempt ...

one last thing for your edification.. i grew up with SD O'Connor as a family friend (my dad was the 1st town judge in her hometown , Paradise Valley ,AZ) and i had occasion to play golf with congressman Eldon Rudd (r) when he was newly retired in the early 80's and we sometimes talked current events... these aren't isolated events in my life .. i've lived history , seems you like to write about your version of it.. no offense intended ,, just a bit of perspective...
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
we just keep going around in circles huh... you really think you know more than i do ?.. i'll give you that on banking regs ... and the answer i would give is "so"?? you clearly don't know more than i do about how washington works (a great example of that is the obvious denial of "deregulation"as the catch all(republican) fix to the economy).. how did that bill get to Clinton? the REPUBLICAN *controlled* congress put it on his desk a few months after their failed hostile coup attempt ...

one last thing for your edification.. i grew up with SD O'Connor as a family friend (my dad was the 1st town judge in her hometown , Paradise Valley ,AZ) and i had occasion to play golf with congressman Eldon Rudd (r) when he was newly retired in the early 80's and we sometimes talked current events... these aren't isolated events in my life .. i've lived history , seems you like to write about your version of it.. no offense intended ,, just a bit of perspective...
"you really think you know more than i do ?"

Who are you, Joe Biden?

I never wrote that the Republicans are blameless- my question was about why Clinton signed it if it was bad legislation and you haven't answered that. Your views are your views but calling the investigation into Clinton a failed coup attempt is just typical of people who are unable to see fault in "their guy". I also never wrote that regulation is bad but over-regulation is. Regulation is definitely needed because greed drives this machine.

Ooh, look at the big brain on you, telling people you know more than they do. I have lived history too, and I don't like a lot of it. I don't actually prefer one party or the other- they both suck, at this point and neither has done much for anyone other than themselves.

Crowing about your associations is childish.
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
@highfigh ...thanks for proving my point for me.. you lecture well .. i hope you have an audience for it .. just one point of fact,, you never named one republican as culpable in this.. and you know they are.. more so by design and platform than dems.. i won't address your name calling , it seems you have to demean anybody with an alternate view as "less than" with the "if you know anything " label.. well i do.. and i got tired of the insinuation the 3rd time you brought it up ,,, so i gave you a bit of context to chew on.. it seems that threatens your universe.. o well , deal with it...
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
@highfigh ...thanks for proving my point for me.. you lecture well .. i hope you have an audience for it .. just one point of fact,, you never named one republican as culpable in this.. and you know they are.. more so by design and platform than dems.. i won't address your name calling , it seems you have to demean anybody with an alternate view as "less than" with the "if you know anything " label.. well i do.. and i got tired of the insinuation the 3rd time you brought it up ,,, so i gave you a bit of context to chew on.. it seems that threatens your universe.. o well , deal with it...
Pick several Republicans- do you want to choose them by degree of guilt?

Who pissed in your Wheaties? I don't think we disagree on as much as you think.
 
Teetertotter?

Teetertotter?

Senior Audioholic
My father raised me to be responsible, respect others, always be early, listen when spoken to, take criticism, when I had a HS summer job at a manufacturing company, where my father was a supervisor, in the late 50's. He taught me good work ethics and I became successful in the manufacturing field as a whole.

So are our 3 children and their children, being on the same paths for success. They are in fields where they can go into work or work from home, during this pandemic.

The issue is, set your mind to something, follow through and enjoy what you are doing. With sacrifices along the way, of course. There are all kinds of jobs out there to be had, if you want it. You will just have to adjust to what is out there. I can think of dozens of fields that are open, w/o a college education and with training, w good $$$. The world is full of EXCUSES.
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
Pick several Republicans- do you want to choose them by degree of guilt?

Who pissed in your Wheaties? I don't think we disagree on as much as you think.
we probably don't disagree on much.. the system needs a reboot.. it's tailor made , at this time, for lobbyist/ billionaire influence and corruption.. until that changes all the talk in the world won't improve our (lack of) decent representation. that's pretty much my point in any current events/ political discussion.. and i'm right.. just look around at all the influence a few people wield ..
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
we probably don't disagree on much.. the system needs a reboot.. it's tailor made , at this time, for lobbyist/ billionaire influence and corruption.. until that changes all the talk in the world won't improve our (lack of) decent representation. that's pretty much my point in any current events/ political discussion.. and i'm right.. just look around at all the influence a few people wield ..
It ABSOLUTELY needs a reboot- I have been saying that it needs to be re-tooled. They have created a situation where they have the freedom to allow their own bad behavior, their own pay & benefits, the freedom to receive money from lobbyists and to go off on tangents that prevent them doing any meaningful work, then they go on vacation because I guess they're too tuckered out to do their damn jobs. Term limits are one of the first things I would add. So many with 30+ years in office and 12 members who are over 80 is ridiculous.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
My father raised me to be responsible, respect others, always be early, listen when spoken to, take criticism, when I had a HS summer job at a manufacturing company, where my father was a supervisor, in the late 50's. He taught me good work ethics and I became successful in the manufacturing field as a whole.

So are our 3 children and their children, being on the same paths for success. They are in fields where they can go into work or work from home, during this pandemic.

The issue is, set your mind to something, follow through and enjoy what you are doing. With sacrifices along the way, of course. There are all kinds of jobs out there to be had, if you want it. You will just have to adjust to what is out there. I can think of dozens of fields that are open, w/o a college education and with training, w good $$$. The world is full of EXCUSES.
I had a neighbor who did title searches for a real estate company or bank- she said that it doesn't sound too exciting, but it paid well. Her philosophy was "Find a job nobody else wants to do and do it so well they have no choice but to pay you very well".
 
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