Fewer jobs … More machines

Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
I found this article very interesting about robots and AI (artificial intelligence) and the growing fear that many of us may be out of jobs or obsolete [gulp] very soon, especially after this pandemic is over and the collateral damage surely to follow.

https://time.com/5876604/machines-jobs-coronavirus/

As you read the article though the writer points out that it doesn’t have to be and this isn’t the first time in history where technology has transformed the job market. He has some common sense solutions that need to be considered and implemented wherever possible.

Will the jobs landscape change? Of course, it goes without saying. Consider the stat he cites where 31% of the workforce in the U.S. alone in 1910 was in agriculture, and now account for less than 1% ... a very sobering stat. And so is stat that 48% of the economy in the US is low-paying service industry jobs.

What has to change though is the partnership between business, government and education … or the lack of it currently. All three seem to be working at cross-purposes, without a game plan.

How many more ‘Great Recessions’ will it take before we take some action, like we did after the ‘Great Depression’ or do we have to completely crater again like we did in the 30’s?

We know that more and more people are dropping out of the lower middle-class into poverty since the mid-80’s and yet we’re paralyzed because of this nonsense about the separation of business, government and education, as if one can live without the other and never the twain shall meet. We have all this wonderful technology and we’re wasting it … on Tik-Tok? :rolleyes:

I hope some don’t perceive this as a political thread; that is not my intention here. Both parties are to blame for the current state of affairs and we need to nudge them forward. Or face the prospect of unemployment like the rest of us.

I bring this up not for myself. I’m pretty well into the last chapter of my book but for my children and grandchildren. I just don’t see how they’re going to do better than previous generations did, like we did by surpassing our parents and they did surpassing their parents economically.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
I will have to read the article later when I have time.

But, the fear of machines replacing people in the workforce is not new, I'm sure we've been having these fears for the last 100 years.

My position has always been that machines can perform work better, faster, cheaper, less variation, etc than a person ever can.

Sure, machines and robots will displace jobs, and already have. To me, that just means that I need to know how to operate and especially REPAIR and TROUBLESHOOT machines, robots, electronics, etc. If you build your skillset to be able to perform these tasks, you will be guaranteed to have gainful employment, it's as simple as that.

With that being said, the USA has a severe shortage of skilled labor! The most skilled labor force has been the baby boomers for the last 50 years, and all those boomers are now headed into retirement.

Then, this gets back to your position about the lack of partnership between business, government and education!

The default advice has been (for far too long), "go to college". Well, college is not for everyone, and if you go to college for a fine arts degree, you won't have any special skill set when you get your diploma. We need to be looking at early high school years and laying out the College Path and the Trade School Path for the students that would perform best in each area. Trade school and blue collar work tends to be looked down upon.....until YOU need such skills for your own problems.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
I'm with Slip, though changing mid-life profession and a carrier is very VERY hard, it's not impossible and it would be a much better choice to adapt and probably increase your own income anyhow, My case in point is coal miners - instead of pushing for political (vs economical) solutions - they could consider switching profession instead and I think the government should support their choice during the transition.
Technology changes, sometimes very rapidly. We need to learn and adapt. I am a seasoned IT guy know this probably more than most - every 10 years my specialty must change pretty drastically or I simply can't keep up.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
The only politician who even addressed this topic head on was Yang. From automation, to solutions for a data driven, post industrial consumer economy, emphasis on trades vs higher ed, etc.
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan


First is 9 years ago, the second is 3 years ago.

There are plenty of jobs, and not enough people to do them because you have to know a specific skill. Trades are a big deal and pay well. I'm baffled as to why this isn't told to people over the emphasis of going to college and getting a good job. That's a fallacy and is putting a lot of people in debt with degrees that won't get them any sort of decent paying job.

Not saying college isn't a necessary, good thing to do. I am saying that counting on a degree to land you a job is dumb. It's sad, but it's true.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan


First is 9 years ago, the second is 3 years ago.

There are plenty of jobs, and not enough people to do them because you have to know a specific skill. Trades are a big deal and pay well. I'm baffled as to why this isn't told to people over the emphasis of going to college and getting a good job. That's a fallacy and is putting a lot of people in debt with degrees that won't get them any sort of decent paying job.

Not saying college isn't a necessary, good thing to do. I am saying that counting on a degree to land you a job is dumb. It's sad, but it's true.
YES!

Mike Rowe has consistently been one of the most outspoken about these problems in America, and the NEED for getting out of the college fallacy and training people to have a useful trade instead.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I found this article very interesting about robots and AI (artificial intelligence) and the growing fear that many of us may be out of jobs or obsolete [gulp] very soon, especially after this pandemic is over and the collateral damage surely to follow.

https://time.com/5876604/machines-jobs-coronavirus/

As you read the article though the writer points out that it doesn’t have to be and this isn’t the first time in history where technology has transformed the job market. He has some common sense solutions that need to be considered and implemented wherever possible.

Will the jobs landscape change? Of course, it goes without saying. Consider the stat he cites where 31% of the workforce in the U.S. alone in 1910 was in agriculture, and now account for less than 1% ... a very sobering stat. And so is stat that 48% of the economy in the US is low-paying service industry jobs.

What has to change though is the partnership between business, government and education … or the lack of it currently. All three seem to be working at cross-purposes, without a game plan.

How many more ‘Great Recessions’ will it take before we take some action, like we did after the ‘Great Depression’ or do we have to completely crater again like we did in the 30’s?

We know that more and more people are dropping out of the lower middle-class into poverty since the mid-80’s and yet we’re paralyzed because of this nonsense about the separation of business, government and education, as if one can live without the other and never the twain shall meet. We have all this wonderful technology and we’re wasting it … on Tik-Tok? :rolleyes:

I hope some don’t perceive this as a political thread; that is not my intention here. Both parties are to blame for the current state of affairs and we need to nudge them forward. Or face the prospect of unemployment like the rest of us.

I bring this up not for myself. I’m pretty well into the last chapter of my book but for my children and grandchildren. I just don’t see how they’re going to do better than previous generations did, like we did by surpassing our parents and they did surpassing their parents economically.
How people will survive in life should start at home, but some people aren't interested in raising productive kids, are overwhelmed when it comes to change, not educated well enough to know what to tell them or are generally bad parents. Next stop is school- that has turned into a complete debacle unless the kids can go to a school that wants to teach real world material and skills, rather than indoctrinating them. Charter schools, specialty and voucher programs are a good way for kids to go where the parents choose, rather than where the system tells them to go and I think the results are speaking for themselves. Rather than take it as a way to make public schools look bad, they should see it as a kick in the ass to get in gear, so they can compete in this, which should really be seen as our future. It shouldn't be an 'us vs them' view, it should be "How can we make children into productive people?".

People need to be more adaptive- if they did one job for 20+ years and demand for that type of job disappears, they shouldn't sit around hoping it comes back. Being a one trick pony is a waste of time and possibly a waste of education, talent and learned job skills, depending on the person in question. More people need to learn that they aren't indispensable and that anyone can be replaced. I managed a car electronics shop and at one point, a couple of the guys were acting cocky, so I said "Everyone is replaceable" and that shocked them. I explained that as valuable as I might find them, someone in a higher position might not see it the same way and may make decisions that would cause them to want to leave, even though they really liked the job. Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened and they left. They made more, but didn't like the job as much.

People need to find their own talents and interests, see themselves as employees and realize that their idea of what makes a good employee is probably different from that of most employers. Showing up every day is great, especially if they're always on time, but if they act like it's a huge chore, they're not doing anybody any favors and are probably making their displeasure clear to customers & other people in the company. I have worked with salespeople who bitched about ongoing training as if it was the company screwing them out of commissions for the time used for training, even if it would make them better at their job, which usually takes care of the lost commissions in a short time. Other people who are trained in some kind of technical skills should always see this as a way to become more valuable- may not get them more from their current employers, but someone is likely to see the added training on a resume and see it as a reason to pay more.

The skills gap should never have happened. I don't know how much liability played a part WRT students being injured, but I bet it was part of the reason schools stopped this. Some didn't and one that's not far from here has won national competitions for auto service/mechanical training- this is a source of great pride for that city. The high school I attended had a great shop program until they forced the drafting teacher into early retirement and out of loyalty to him, the rest of the shop staff quit. They sold off the equipment ( I would have loved to get some of it) and fairly recently, they created a STEM academy and they're doing very well. It's good to see them dong this because they're going in the right direction, rather than churning out lawyers, Doctors, Accountants and other white collar people when the kids aren't necessarily that type of people.

I also think guidance councilors need to get their butts in gear and do their job better.
 
L

lp85253

Full Audioholic
employers use the : "we might have to resort to machines" threat every time raising minimum wage gets popular...the fix , as are lots of fixes (attached to this action) .. outlaw money in politics .. end of most problems.. every political .. most financial and many social problems is: quit letting billionaires have all the political clout.. congress won't change it , they make millions on legalized bribes.. so it's up to us to demand it... end of rant
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
First is 9 years ago, the second is 3 years ago.

There are plenty of jobs, and not enough people to do them because you have to know a specific skill. Trades are a big deal and pay well. I'm baffled as to why this isn't told to people over the emphasis of going to college and getting a good job. That's a fallacy and is putting a lot of people in debt with degrees that won't get them any sort of decent paying job.

Not saying college isn't a necessary, good thing to do. I am saying that counting on a degree to land you a job is dumb. It's sad, but it's true.
Here's another video of Mike Rowe-

 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
employers use the : "we might have to resort to machines" threat every time raising minimum wage gets popular...the fix , as are lots of fixes (attached to this action) .. outlaw money in politics .. end of most problems.. every political .. most financial and many social problems is: quit letting billionaires have all the political clout.. congress won't change it , they make millions on legalized bribes.. so it's up to us to demand it... end of rant
Paying more in wages is always a major part of how companies charge for their goods and services but some managers and owners look at wages as a terrible cost and will do anything to decrease this. The good ones see wages as the cost of doing business. However, if they can't compete with outside suppliers, they have to cut costs somewhere and if the facilities and equipment are absolutely necessary for their ability to produce whatever they sell, wages will be cut. If they provide services, they'll have to look at the effects of cutting wages on the quality of their services- if the cuts cause the need for a lot of after-sale damage control, it needs to me minimal, or they still won't be able to compete. Sometimes, they can ask fewer people to do the job of more- whether the employees are paid more or not is up to the employees, the demand for those jobs in the outside world and how much more they need to do.

Etc.
 
L

lp85253

Full Audioholic
isn't Mike Rowe's greatest skill doing crappy jobs on tv for about a day then making big $$ selling it?...not much heavy lifting involved there... what makes this guy an expert ? sounds like a typical suite that does hard work along side his employees for a day to prove he's "one of the guys" and empathetic , when in reality he goes home to a paid for million $$ house..
 
L

lp85253

Full Audioholic
Paying more in wages is always a major part of how companies charge for their goods and services but some managers and owners look at wages as a terrible cost and will do anything to decrease this. The good ones see wages as the cost of doing business. However, if they can't compete with outside suppliers, they have to cut costs somewhere and if the facilities and equipment are absolutely necessary for their ability to produce whatever they sell, wages will be cut. If they provide services, they'll have to look at the effects of cutting wages on the quality of their services- if the cuts cause the need for a lot of after-sale damage control, it needs to me minimal, or they still won't be able to compete. Sometimes, they can ask fewer people to do the job of more- whether the employees are paid more or not is up to the employees, the demand for those jobs in the outside world and how much more they need to do.

Etc.
spoken like a true believer in trickle down theory.. i'm not going to go on another rant about billionaires relying on paying employees food stamp worthy wages then crying about their own impending poverty if minimum wage increases...
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
isn't Mike Rowe's greatest skill doing crappy jobs on tv for about a day then making big $$ selling it?...not much heavy lifting involved there... what makes this guy an expert ? sounds like a typical suite that does hard work along side his employees for a day to prove he's "one of the guys" and empathetic , when in reality he goes home to a paid for million $$ house..
Whether or not he is an expert is irrelevant. He is one of the few to speak out about the problem and point towards the solution!

He actually got his start as an opera singer, and his voice is what got him into showbiz, as a narrator for various programs. So, a complete change of careers for him regardless.

Edit, a little info from Wiki:
Trade activism
On Labor Day 2008, Rowe launched a website, mikeroweWORKS.org, which is focused on the decline in the blue collar trades and the crumbling state of the infrastructure. A trade resource center has been launched and provides information, resources, and forums for people interested in learning about, or pursuing a career in, the trades,[5] as well as a new blog aggregator for the trades and construction industry called the "Trades Hub", which launched in April 2011.

On September 19, 2010, Mike Rowe and the Association of Equipment Manufacturers started a campaign called "I Make America". The campaign aims to create jobs in the manufacturing sector by encouraging infrastructure investment and export agreements. The group argues that this will improve the economy and global competitiveness of the United States.[33]

In May 2011, Rowe testified on the issue before the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation.[34][35]

Mike Rowe has contributed video content to The Alabama Construction Recruitment Institute's trade-worker recruiting campaign GoBuildAlabama.com, culminating in an Iron Bowl-themed commercial broadcast on local CBS affiliates during Thanksgiving weekend 2010.[36]

Rowe sent a letter to President Obama at the start of his first term offering to help promote the three million "shovel ready" jobs promised during the campaign, suspecting it might be a tough sell, "given the country's then-current relationship with the shovel." He did not receive a reply. During the 2012 presidential election, Rowe contacted GOP candidate Mitt Romney and appeared with him on September 26, 2012, at a campaign event in Ohio. "He's non partisan, he's not here to endorse me, he's not here to add support to one campaign or another," Romney said of his guest. "He's here to talk about his ideas about how to help America create more jobs." [37]

In Spring 2013, mikeroweWORKS launched its newest initiative, Profoundly Disconnected. Rowe states, "many of the best opportunities that exist today require a skill, not a diploma. The purpose of this site is to promote that simple truth." While in high school in 1979, Rowe saw a poster in his guidance counselor's office that read "Work Smart, Not Hard". He hated it so much, he changed it to "Work Smart AND Hard"; he now prints such posters and wants them hanging all over the country to get people to change the way hard work is perceived.[38]

Rowe describes himself as a cheerleader for both blue-collar workers and white-collar workers, hoping to promote individual initiative and positive thinking throughout the U.S. economy. He has stated that he feels alienated from the current U.S. political system given that both business owners and regular workers receive, in his opinion, unfair criticism, with issues such as geographical mismatching and a lack of job training causing unemployment. Rowe has stated that he is a gun owner and a supporter of the U.S. 2nd Amendment, but not a member of the National Rifle Association because he is "not much of a joiner".[18]
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
isn't Mike Rowe's greatest skill doing crappy jobs on tv for about a day then making big $$ selling it?...not much heavy lifting involved there... what makes this guy an expert ? sounds like a typical suite that does hard work along side his employees for a day to prove he's "one of the guys" and empathetic , when in reality he goes home to a paid for million $$ house..
You should probably watch the videos before making assumptions. Mike specifically says he's not the star, he's the guest and that the people and jobs they feature are what's important.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai


First is 9 years ago, the second is 3 years ago.

There are plenty of jobs, and not enough people to do them because you have to know a specific skill. Trades are a big deal and pay well. I'm baffled as to why this isn't told to people over the emphasis of going to college and getting a good job. That's a fallacy and is putting a lot of people in debt with degrees that won't get them any sort of decent paying job.

Not saying college isn't a necessary, good thing to do. I am saying that counting on a degree to land you a job is dumb. It's sad, but it's true.
Mike Rowe says it more eloquently than I ever could and he's spot on about the need for skilled laborers in this country.

Part of the problem of is the lack of apprenticeship programs at union, like before in the 50's to mid-80's, and especially at non-union jobs and the disdain of our educational system for these skills, as if they're second-class citizens. If they only knew what these guys/gals are pulling down salary wise.

Finding a good plumber is harder than finding chicken's teeth and get ready to hand over part of your retirement money after he's done. Unless you have an emergency, be ready to wait a month or two to see his sunny smile. And yet my plumber can't find a young man/woman to apprentice without getting laughed at, like it's beneath them.

When did it become low-brow to be paid $24 an hour to learn a skill? And probably make $37 an hour to start working for a plumbing company afterwards with full health benefits and a 401K. Never mind what you could pull down a year if your industrious and start your own company or do side jobs like I did in IT/telecommunications.

College is soooooo overrated.

Let's see, we'll take a 18 year old who doesn't have a clue of what he wants to do in life ... a vast majority of them ... and give him a liberal art degree after 4 years, with which he can wipe his derriere with when he/she is done.

90% of them are useless as tit$. Meanwhile most of them could have been learning a valuable skill-set instead of being the frat beer-pong champion.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
quit letting billionaires have all the political clout.. congress won't change it , they make millions on legalized bribes.. so it's up to us to demand it... end of rant
Wealth stratification has actually been worse in the past, and we did address it, e.g. Teddy Roosevelt's Square Deal involving antitrust laws to rein in plutocrats and labor reforms. Of course both parties have abdicated all of that, starting back in the early seventies by a crop of baby boomers who never faced the Great Depression, to Clinton having antitrust removed from the offical Dem platform in the nineties. Now we have a duopoly in name only, both parties devolved into influence peddling crime families catering to their respective paymasters (and that's not us). Our government has been virtually privatized by our corporate overlords.

I don't recall who it was who said it, a politician from somewhere in the Carribean. He said that the US is a one party state, but with typical American extravagance they have two of them.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Mike Rowe says it more eloquently than I ever could and he's spot on about the need for skilled laborers in this country.

Part of the problem of is the lack of apprenticeship programs at union, like before in the 50's to mid-80's, and especially at non-union jobs and the disdain of our educational system for these skills, as if they're second-class citizens. If they only knew what these guys/gals are pulling down salary wise.

Finding a good plumber is harder than finding chicken's teeth and get ready to hand over part of your retirement money after he's done. Unless you have an emergency, be ready to wait a month or two to see his sunny smile. And yet my plumber can't find a young man/woman to apprentice without getting laughed at, like it's beneath them.

When did it become low-brow to be paid $24 an hour to learn a skill? And probably make $37 an hour to start working for a plumbing company afterwards with full health benefits and a 401K. Never mind what you could pull down a year if your industrious and start your own company or do side jobs like I did in IT/telecommunications.

College is so overrated.

Let's see, we'll take a 18 year old who doesn't have a clue of what he wants to do in life ... a vast majority of them ... and give him a liberal art degree after 4 years, with which he can wipe his derriere with when he/she is done.

90% of them are useless as tit$. Meanwhile most of them could have been learning a valuable skill-set instead of being the frat beer-pong champion.
Wow. Plumbing here isn't that way at all. There are so many companies to choose from, I could have 3 people at my door in an hour.

My brother in law is a plumber and he makes quite a bit more than $37/hr and isn't even a master. More like $50 (with commission/OT). Oh, he's also 30 and dropped out of high school. Smart as hell, but hated school. He's been a plumber for 10 years or so.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
College is soooooo overrated.

Let's see, we'll take a 18 year old who doesn't have a clue of what he wants to do in life ... a vast majority of them ... and give him a liberal art degree after 4 years, with which he can wipe his derriere with when he/she is done.

90% of them are useless as tit$. Meanwhile most of them could have been learning a valuable skill-set instead of being the frat beer-pong champion.
You missed that part about giving them $50k of debt so they will have to work crappy jobs for the man to be able to pay off that debt. And, crappy jobs is all they will be finding.
 
L

lp85253

Full Audioholic
Wealth stratification has actually been worse in the past, and we did address it, e.g. Teddy Roosevelt's Square Deal involving antitrust laws to rein in plutocrats and labor reforms. Of course both parties have abdicated all of that, starting back in the early seventies by a crop of baby boomers who never faced the Great Depression, to Clinton having antitrust removed from the offical Dem platform in the nineties. Now we have a duopoly in name only, both parties devolved into influence peddling crime families catering to their respective paymasters (and that's not us). Our government has been virtually privatized by our corporate overlords.

I don't recall who it was who said it, a politician from somewhere in the Carribean. He said that the US is a one party state, but with typical American extravagance they have two of them.
you get it... now ... who's got the balls to fix it?
 
L

lp85253

Full Audioholic
You missed that part about giving them $50k of debt so they will have to work crappy jobs for the man to be able to pay off that debt. And, crappy jobs is all they will be finding.
debt is the greatest organized scam in banking history... anybody remember when banks had to give us interest in savings so they could loan out money at a slightly higher rate? .. in comes the credit card companies (banks).. end of need ... thanks congress
 

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