AVR-X3600H - A viable low cost alternative to the more expensive AVPs(Denon) and AVCs (Yamaha)?

[KEW]

If I can get better measured performance for the same $$ I'll take it.

Performance hoarder!
Only take what you need and leave some for the rest of us!

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I almost bought the Denon 3600H for $1099 at Amazon, but noticed the refurbished 4500H was $899 with 125 watts per channel instead of 105W. I was a little skeptical but ordered anyway. The 4500H arrived and looked like new and had a 1 year Denon warranty. If you buy it here they offer a 3 year warranty on the refurb 4500H https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4500h/denon-avr-x4500h-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

I can't guarantee everyone will get the same quality but buying Denon 4500H refurb saved me a bundle and was less than the 3600 and about the same price as a 3600 refurb. Have any of you had good luck with Denon refurbs?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I almost bought the Denon 3600H for $1099 at Amazon, but noticed the refurbished 4500H was $899 with 125 watts per channel instead of 105W. I was a little skeptical but ordered anyway. The 4500H arrived and looked like new and had a 1 year Denon warranty. If you buy it here they offer a 3 year warranty on the refurb 4500H https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4500h/denon-avr-x4500h-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

I can't guarantee everyone will get the same quality but buying Denon 4500H refurb saved me a bundle and was less than the 3600 and about the same price as a 3600 refurb. Have any of you had good luck with Denon refurbs?
View attachment 35501

Not a denon, but I bought a Marantz SR6012 from A4L. It’s been a great AVR. My friend bought a 7005 and also had a good experience. I’ve heard countless others too. It a perfect company, but none are.
The 4500 is a great receiver. Congrats.

 

[PENG]

Someone asked Amir to attached his Revel M16 (86 dB/2.83V/1m), 6 ohm nominal to this little receiver. Well he did better than that, much better, as he responded:

I tested them with my Revel Salon 2 as part of testing the EQ system. I was pleasantly surprised how power was available in two channel mode. It had no trouble pushing these speakers to frightening levels . It ran pretty hot though as the fan still did not come on.

So those who are on a tight budget yet are constantly tempted to add a big and back breaking 7X200 W Monolith amps perhaps should relax a little. Some AVR's internal amps and PS may be weak, light and small, but give them a fan or two you may not need an external amp, but as always it depends..

And if for those who don't know why Amir would pick the Salon 2 for such test, just ask @Irvrobinson or @AcuDefTechGuy .

@Irvrobinson, having heard from you for a while, hope all is great. We have had a conversation about the HDAM , the discrete opamp vs IC/chip OPA and iirc you didn't seem worry about your slimline not having those discrete opa. I guess your are right if you are on the measurements matter most camp. The HDAMless 3600 now ranks second to the $5,000 Emo RMC-2 prepro on ASR's test list. Only 1 dB separates the two!! Only in two channel obviously as the assign trick was used to get that result at the 2 V (RCA) level.

I bet you can count on the same good results for the slimline Marantz because its preamp section is virtually the same as Denon's.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Someone asked Amir to attached his Revel M16 (86 dB/2.83V/1m), 6 ohm nominal to this little receiver. Well he did better than that, much better, as he responded:



So those who are on a tight budget yet are constantly tempted to add a big and back breaking 7X200 W Monolith amps perhaps should relax a little. Some AVR's internal amps and PS may be weak, light and small, but give them a fan or two you may not need an external amp, but as always it depends..

And if for those who don't know why Amir would pick the Salon 2 for such test, just ask @Irvrobinson or @AcuDefTechGuy .

@Irvrobinson, having heard from you for a while, hope all is great. We have had a conversation about the HDAM , the discrete opamp vs IC/chip OPA and iirc you didn't seem worry about your slimline not having those discrete opa. I guess your are right if you are on the measurements matter most camp. The HDAMless 3600 now ranks second to the $5,000 Emo RMC-2 prepro on ASR's test list. Only 1 dB separates the two!! Only in two channel obviously as the assign trick was used to get that result at the 2 V (RCA) level.

I bet you can count on the same good results for the slimline Marantz because its preamp section is virtually the same as Denon's.

I haven't been on AH for a few weeks now, except to answer PMs. Call it forum burn-out. But when I got the email notifying me of your reference to me I made an exception.

My Marantz NR1608 is still doing fine acting as a pre-pro. It does run surprisingly hot, even with the amplifier channels deactivated and ECO mode enabled, but an external fan took care of that problem in my equipment cabinet. I actually like the fact that the NR1608 uses ICs and not discrete circuits for the pre-amp stage. ICs are fabricated with far more precision and consistency than any discrete components or discrete circuits, so IMO they are just plain better. IMO, discrete line-level stages are an audiophile fad, even though I'm not of a mind that I could hear a difference anyway. Except for IC-based electronics, it is difficult to think of things where better is cheaper.

I still use my discontinued and becoming old ATI AT602 stereo amplifier to drive the Klipsch RF-62ii L/R speakers that my wife loves so much, and they're efficient enough that the ATI amp is probably underworked in the 16x14 room we dedicate to HT. No sub either. Frankly, unless I went from a pre-pro to NR1608, so I had the ATI already, I'd just be using the amps in the Marantz. For this system I highly doubt there would be an audible difference even at the highest volume levels we are likely to use, which in reality aren't very impressive. Overall, I'm very pleased with the Marantz, heat dissipation not withstanding, and I don't plan to replace it until it breaks.

The Salon2s are celebrating their 11th anniversary in my music system, and are the oldest audio equipment I actively use. (I have a mint Marantz 2110 tuner in the original box sitting in a closet that I keep for sentimental reasons, but it doesn't really count. FM is dead for me anyway.) I have considered replacing the Revels several times over the years, but I have yet to listen to any other speakers in their price range +/- 50% that make a compelling case to replace them. And every dealer I visit tells me about how yesterday's news they are, to get me to trade up. I still smooth out the overall bass response with a single sub with parametric equalization augmenting the dips in the Salon2s full-range in-room bass response, but in the room I currently use the truth is the sub has a rather subtle effect, but it's still worth it to me. In such a large room, over 8000 cubic feet, the Salon2s can be truly impressive with well-recorded material. When I exercise them like that the ATI AT3000 amp I use gets pretty darn warm. On my own recordings of my wife's instruments and bands the Salon2s are also surprisingly accurate reproducers.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

(I have a mint Marantz 2110 tuner in the original box sitting in a closet that I keep for sentimental reasons, but it doesn't really count. FM is dead for me anyway.)

Irv, try Public Radio, I receive many stations. It saved my love for terrestrial radio.

 

[KEW]

I almost bought the Denon 3600H for $1099 at Amazon, but noticed the refurbished 4500H was $899 with 125 watts per channel instead of 105W. I was a little skeptical but ordered anyway. The 4500H arrived and looked like new and had a 1 year Denon warranty. If you buy it here they offer a 3 year warranty on the refurb 4500H https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4500h/denon-avr-x4500h-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

I can't guarantee everyone will get the same quality but buying Denon 4500H refurb saved me a bundle and was less than the 3600 and about the same price as a 3600 refurb. Have any of you had good luck with Denon refurbs?
View attachment 35501

Yeah, Accessories4less gets recommended quite often here. We do have a member who had a negative experience with Denon 8520's. He bought one from them and it arrived DOA, they sent a replacement which was also DOA and I believed he went elsewhere for his AVR. However, the good thing is that Accessories4less was straightforward in handling the replacement and refund.
But there are dozens of people who have given accounts just like yours. I have bought over a dozen refurb items from them and, upon inspection, all were either brand new (as far as I could tell) or had the kind of wear that I would put on one after a few weeks (I am careful but sometimes there is something like a sheen where the rubber feet from another component was slid across the top - not something you would ever notice in normal use)! Enjoy!

 

[mtrot]

Can anybody recommend a quiet fan for my Denon AVR-X5200? After this thread and others, I now want to avoid using ECO mode, but my 5200 gets really hot when not in ECO mode, regardless of how hard it's being driven.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, Accessories4less gets recommended quite often here. We do have a member who had a negative experience with Denon 8520's. He bought one from them and it arrived DOA, they sent a replacement which was also DOA and I believed he went elsewhere for his AVR. However, the good thing is that Accessories4less was straightforward in handling the replacement and refund.
But there are dozens of people who have given accounts just like yours. I have bought over a dozen refurb items from them and, upon inspection, all were either brand new (as far as I could tell) or had the kind of wear that I would put on one after a few weeks (I am careful but sometimes there is something like a sheen where the rubber feet from another component were slid across the top - not something you would ever notice in normal use)! Enjoy!

That would be me with the 4520s. First was DOA, second worked for even a bit over 30 days before going nuts but I went with a new one rather than refurb (which has been great) but also thru A4L as they could ship it as I was returning the second bad refurb. I've bought other stuff from them, too. I just say read the terms and conditions well as I was originally warned to do....they don't just take returns because someone changes their minds.....so not a retailer for everyone.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My Marantz NR1608 is still doing fine acting as a pre-pro. It does run surprisingly hot, even with the amplifier channels deactivated and ECO mode enabled, but an external fan took care of that problem in my equipment cabinet.

Can anybody recommend a quiet fan for my Denon AVR-X5200? After this thread and others, I now want to avoid using ECO mode, but my 5200 gets really hot when not in ECO mode, regardless of how hard it's being driven.

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00JLV4BWC/ref=sr_1_8?crid=3NNTB9L44PE0K&dchild=1&keywords=ac+infinity&qid=1587399715&sprefix=AC+Infin%2Caps%2C322&sr=8-8

I used three AC Infinity 120mm fans for my Denon AVP-A1HDCI, which got really hot. The fans kept the Denon chassis less hot, but I have to wonder what's the actual temperature on those Circuit Boards INSIDE the chassis even with 3 x 120mm fans on the outside of the chassis.

My Denon AVP-A1HDCI died after 8 years even with the 3 fans, so I don't know if these fans can actually decrease the "mortality and morbidity" of these "Febrile" AVR's.

In the spirit of COVID19, it's like being Febrile and having to use FANS to keep your fever down vs being Afebrile in the first place.

Now that I have all Yamaha and no more DM products in my house (except for the AVP-A1HDCI chassis used for my Karaoke Mixer), I can put all those fans in the closet.

 

[AVUser001]

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00JLV4BWC/ref=sr_1_8?crid=3NNTB9L44PE0K&dchild=1&keywords=ac+infinity&qid=1587399715&sprefix=AC+Infin%2Caps%2C322&sr=8-8

I used three AC Infinity 120mm fans for my Denon AVP-A1HDCI, which got really hot. The fans kept the Denon chassis less hot, but I have to wonder what's the actual temperature on those Circuit Boards INSIDE the chassis even with 3 x 120mm fans.

My Denon AVP-A1HDCI died after 8 years even with the 3 fans, so I don't know if the fans really did anything to actually increase the LIFE of the Denon.

same what I use..

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Accessories4less is where Amazon sent my order for the refurb. Later, I was told had I bought directly from Accessories4less my Denon 4500H warranty would have been 3 years instead of 1. It seemed odd that they treat Amazon customers as 2nd class citizens, but I was happy with the deal. I'm not a cheerleader for Accessories4less, but I'll use them if I can save. Even if their business model is a little grumpy. ;-)

I ran all my speakers from the 4500H initially, it ran fine but a little warm. Now it stays amazingly cool with the fronts on the Adcom. A USB fan could probably cure this but I had the extra amp sitting in a cabinet. I don't notice much sound difference between the two setups. I agree with the thought that we could probably use less external amps with more quiet USB fans.

 

[PENG]

Accessories4less is where Amazon sent my order for the refurb. Later, I was told had I bought directly from Accessories4less my Denon 4500H warranty would have been 3 years instead of 1. It seemed odd that they treat Amazon customers as 2nd class citizens, but I was happy with the deal. I'm not a cheerleader for Accessories4less, but I'll use them if I can save. Even if their business model is a little grumpy. ;-)

I ran all my speakers from the 4500H initially, it ran fine but a little warm. Now it stays amazingly cool with the fronts on the Adcom. A USB fan could probably cure this but I had the extra amp sitting in a cabinet. I don't notice much sound difference between the two setups. I agree with the thought that we could probably use less external amps with more quiet USB fans.

Did you set ECO to "on" or "auto"? For best performance it is best to set it to "off" unless your volume is in the low to high -30's, on the relative scale. If you don't use the internal amps at all, then you can set ECO to "On" without worrying about the pre-outs output being limited (as confirmed by D&M). If you are going to use external fans, it is probably better to still leave it off regardless.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I leave ECO on except when I'm interested in Max sound output. It's just a button push away on the remote. You can hear the dynamics difference if your pushing 50-60 on the volume control. When I moved the L/R channels to an external amp the Denon ECO setting impact was much less noticeable. It's a nice feature for saving a little power. But if every time you turn on the system you want the best sound possible - then I agree leave it off and get a fan.

 

[DJ7675]

That's why I called it a "trick", i.e. we have to cheat the AVR. It obviously is not an feature designed for such use, but then we have Gene the genius who figured that out.

All 11.1 processing capable but have only 9 channels of internal amps would likely be subjected to this trick/cheat. Example: Yamaha RX-A3060/70/80. Units such as the AVR-X6300H and higher won't be fooled because they have 11 channels of amps build in. The AVR-X6200H should be able to do it because it has only 9 channels of internal amps.

This is why I think the X8500 is actually the best value going right now. The trick that the X3600H does for 2 channels, the X8500 can do with all channels (individually). Basically you can pick and choose what channels you want to externally amp and get better performance than the Marantz 7705/8805. From Safensoundhq for example, you can get a full warranty open box unit for under $3k. With it you can disconnect any channel and get this (likely even better) performance, 13 very good amps, 13 channels of processing, 3 zone control, dialogue lift etc. It makes no sense that the X8500 can be had for less than the Marantz AV8805 and it includes amplification for all 13 channels. And the kicker is it will likely outperform all of the boutique processors as well like Emotiva, etc. It is amazing the affect disconnecting amps has on performance when using the precuts for external amps.

 

[KEW]

Accessories4less is where Amazon sent my order for the refurb. Later, I was told had I bought directly from Accessories4less my Denon 4500H warranty would have been 3 years instead of 1. It seemed odd that they treat Amazon customers as 2nd class citizens, but I was happy with the deal. I'm not a cheerleader for Accessories4less, but I'll use them if I can save. Even if their business model is a little grumpy. ;-)

I think your perspective is wrong. We commonly see this with Amazon and Ebay for companies that have low profit margins. If A4L sells through Amazon, they have to pay Amazon a fee (I have no idea how much). So to offset the cost of selling through Amazon, they reduce the warranty period.
It is kind of like how many businesses will accept payment via paypal without a second thought, but many (usually smaller) companies and individuals will expect you to pay the 3% paypal fee!

 

[DJ7675]

I think your perspective is wrong. We commonly see this with Amazon and Ebay for companies that have low profit margins. If A4L sells through Amazon, they have to pay Amazon a fee (I have no idea how much). So to offset the cost of selling through Amazon, they reduce the warranty period.
It is kind of like how many businesses will accept payment via paypal without a second thought, but many (usually smaller) companies and individuals will expect you to pay the 3% paypal fee!

This.... customers don’t understand the expense of being a 3rd party seller on Amazon. electronics I believe is 8%. Other categories are even higher (15% for example with sporting goods). Shipping cost is also paid for by the seller. Moral of the story is, all things being equal, buy directly from the retailer when you can.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Moral of the story is, all things being equal, buy directly from the retailer when you can.
[/QUOTE]

Moral of the story is buy from who you trust and second with the best price. Especially when buying refurb gear. I bought a third party 3 year warranty on Amazon with the Denon 4500 for $57. There was nothing listed on A4L/Amazon listing for the 4500H about warranty over 30 days. I should have gone to A4L and looked at their 4500H refurb offer before purchasing on Amazon but I had not experienced this two tier warranty scheme before. Now I know.

Looking back, I had no experience with A4L so I might have still gone with Amazon even if I was aware of the shorter Amazon warranty.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, Accessories4less gets recommended quite often here. We do have a member who had a negative experience with Denon 8520's. He bought one from them and it arrived DOA, they sent a replacement which was also DOA and I believed he went elsewhere for his AVR. However, the good thing is that Accessories4less was straightforward in handling the replacement and refund.
But there are dozens of people who have given accounts just like yours. I have bought over a dozen refurb items from them and, upon inspection, all were either brand new (as far as I could tell) or had the kind of wear that I would put on one after a few weeks (I am careful but sometimes there is something like a sheen where the rubber feet from another component was slid across the top - not something you would ever notice in normal use)! Enjoy!

Just curious, how do they typically package heavy items, double/triple box with extra foams? Regardless, I would not buy something that heavy, say >30 to 35 lbs with packaging material, i.e. in the box from AC4L or other refurbished AVRs online even if they are labelled refurbished but actually brand new.

 

[PENG]

Moral of the story is, all things being equal, buy directly from the retailer when you can.

Moral of the story is buy from who you trust and second with the best price. Especially when buying refurb gear. I bought a third party 3 year warranty on Amazon with the Denon 4500 for $57. There was nothing listed on A4L/Amazon listing for the 4500H about warranty over 30 days. I should have gone to A4L and looked at their 4500H refurb offer before purchasing on Amazon but I had not experienced this two tier warranty scheme before. Now I know.

Looking back, I had no experience with A4L so I might have still gone with Amazon even if I was aware of the shorter Amazon warranty.

The fact that you bought it from Amazon, would the warranty service be handled through them, or you have to deal directly with A4L? I understand it is only 1 year but if Amazon would handle it through them, then there is still some value.

By the way, if you put a fan on top, the 3 year thing is a moot point 99% of the time as it won't fail within 3 years anyway for normal use.