AVR-X3600H - A viable low cost alternative to the more expensive AVPs(Denon) and AVCs (Yamaha)?

[Pogre]

Why? Thought you are running 11 channels.

Because I don't know what I'm doing. My setup is 5.1.

 

[Pogre]

This is what I had earlier - picked up from one of my earlier posts , on my Marantz SR7010 Amp Assign/Speaker config:

View attachment 35487

In the above cases, the Front ch amps were reassigned to Height channels (Top/ceiling), as I needed them.., but you can just reassign to heights and not connect anything to the terminals, if theresnt a need.

I have , since then moved the Marantz upto my office room to support the 2 channel config, temporarily - so dont have this particular config anymore.

So lots more to it than what I did, or even understood! Thanks for the detailed explanation and images!

 

[KEW]

Wish I could do this trick with my AVR-X5200! I'm using the pre-outs for my front L/R channels. I know Gene measured the 5200 some years ago and gave it a pretty good score. Therefore, I'm not sure that a newer AVR with this feature would make an audible difference. But I do like the idea of being able to shut off the amps for those front L/R channels.

I'm not totally clear on this, so welcome feedback!
However, my understanding is that the amps are still not turned off - they are simply not being fed a signal (which is the same situation as if you set your AVR to 5 channels using the pre-outs for the front channels). I think that assigning all of the other amp channels (whether there is actually a signal or not) somehow throws the front two channels into a dedicated pre-out which is more capable than the pre-outs that might be used at the same time as the speaker output for the same channels!

 

[PENG]

Because I don't know what I'm doing. My setup is 5.1.

I thought you has a 7 channel Monolith added, that's why I assumed you were running all 11 channels. For 5.1, you still need to select 7.1.4 first in order to assign FL and FR to pre out. After that, you can go back to the speaker menu and set the unused channel speakers (e.g. you said you set height to none..) to none. The FL/FR amps will remain disconnected to their pre outs that are connected to the external amp.

 

[PENG]

I'm not totally clear on this, so welcome feedback!
However, my understanding is that the amps are still not turned off - they are simply not being fed a signal (which is the same situation as if you set your AVR to 5 channels using the pre-outs for the front channels).

That is correct, not turned off, just disconnected from the preamps.

I think that assigning all of the other amp channels (whether there is actually a signal or not) somehow throws the front two channels into a dedicated pre-out which is more capable than the pre-outs that might be used at the same time as the speaker output for the same channels!

What did you mean by "assigning all of the other..................................."? I suppose you are talking about the preamp mode that is only available on Denon's flagship AVRs and some Onkyo, Pioneer (may be others too) models.

 

[PENG]

For those who don't want to bother with too much technical details, I summarized Amir's bench test results as follow, using the AV7705 and 8805 as reference.

Note that the high voltage of the 7705 was simply due to the XLR being used. If you used RCA, it would have been around 2 V also, even at a little over half that, the AV7705 still did not measure as good as the X3600H in THD+N.

So unless you must have XLR or much prefer the look/port hole, feel free to use the $1,099 Denon as prepro. It shouldn't, therefore, sound less warm in direct/pure direct using analog inputs.

	At pre out voltage	THD+N	DR	32 tone input/192 kHz sampling rate	IMD
AV7705	3.955 XLR/1.978 RCA equiv.	0.018728	107.963	14 bits distortion free range at 20 kHz	poorer than AV8805
AVR-X3600H	2.045	0.001192	109.929	18-20 bits	About the same as AV8805

 

[KEW]

What did you mean by "assigning all of the other..................................."? I suppose you are talking about the preamp mode that is only available on Denon's flagship AVRs and some Onkyo, Pioneer (may be others too) models.

That is poorly worded, what I mean is (if I have it right) we have to tell the AVR that we are using an 11 channel setup (whether we are or not) in order to kick the mains onto the pre-amp circuit that is not tied to an amp(?) to get the better performance!
Since these AVRs process 11 channels, but only have 9 amps, we are deceiving the AVR to believe that all 9 amps are spoken for with the front channels going to the preamp without also providing a signal to amps (like all of the other 9 channels would). (I'm asking, not telling!)

 

[ryanosaur]

My random 2¢... though I am not running atmos yet, I did the amp reassign by setting my system to 11 channels with the Mains set to pre-out only. I think you can do this even if you are only running a 2-ch system.
I can’t say I heard a difference in anything... wasn’t even looking for one, but the SR6012 is running cooler in most usage than it was when the Front L/R amps were still linked to those channels for output.
Still would be nice to have an Amp Reassign/Disconnect feature built in to the AVR which allows for selective application of all channels based on individual need. (I know, if wishes were wings...)

 

[ryanosaur]

Since these AVRs process 11 channels, but only have 9 amps, we are deceiving the AVR to believe that all 9 amps are spoken for with the front channels going to the preamp without also providing a signal to amps (like all of the other 9 channels would)

Don't think of it as deception, rather see it for what it is: poor UI design.

 

[Pogre]

I thought you has a 7 channel Monolith added, that's why I assumed you were running all 11 channels. For 5.1, you still need to select 7.1.4 first in order to assign FL and FR to pre out. After that, you can go back to the speaker menu and set the unused channel speakers (e.g. you said you set height to none..) to none. The FL/FR amps will remain disconnected to their pre outs that are connected to the external amp.

Oh no, I got the 7 channel Monolith because I'm neurotic, not because I needed them or anything!

Okay, there was more to it than I thought so I went back in just now and I think I got it right this time because it solved my syrup problem...

 

[ryanosaur]

Oh no, I got the 7 channel Monolith because I'm neurotic, not because I needed them or anything!

Okay, there was more to it than I thought so I went back in just now and I think I got it right this time because it solved my syrup problem...

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Looks good... except...
Tiger King?

 

[AVUser001]

That is poorly worded, what I mean is (if I have it right) we have to tell the AVR that we are using an 11 channel setup (whether we are or not) in order to kick the mains onto the pre-amp circuit that is not tied to an amp(?) to get the better performance!
Since these AVRs process 11 channels, but only have 9 amps, we are deceiving the AVR to believe that all 9 amps are spoken for with the front channels going to the preamp without also providing a signal to amps (like all of the other 9 channels would). (I'm asking, not telling!)

Exactly Kurt.., The way I understood is that this is done by decoupling via redirection ...

3 steps
Step 1) Configure AVR for 11 channels, [ eg 7.1.4 = 5 ch+ 2 Surround Back + 4 ch Height layer ]
Step 2) Preout the front channels to an external amp
Step 3) Redirect the front amps to something else (usually Heights) , using Amp Assign, by specifying 4 channels for Heights ( even if not actually using the heights..in which case you'd have a none for the top layer in speaker config)

 

[Pogre]

Looks good... except...
Tiger King?

Lawyer's reaction to it!

I knew someone was gonna comment on that, lol. Truthfully I have not watched it, but I have a friend who's pissed at me for not watching it yet because he wants to talk about it.

I do have a couple more sets of speakers and could go with a 11 channel setup if I find the motivation (and money) for it. I definitely have plenty of room and can have good placement for atmos. I'd get 2 pair of Prime elevations for my vaulted ceiling to use for atmos and my DefTech Promontor 1000s can easily be mounted for rear surround speakers.

8 hunnert bucks for 2 pair of Prime elevations is the only thing preventing me from doing it right now.

 

[PENG]

Oh no, I got the 7 channel Monolith because I'm neurotic, not because I needed them or anything!

Okay, there was more to it than I thought so I went back in just now and I think I got it right this time because it solved my syrup problem...

View attachment 35498

View attachment 35499

View attachment 35500

That is it, you can see that the amp assign menu now shows the front left/right amps assigned to two of the Heights, so if you connect a speaker to the front left or right speaker binding posts you won't get any sound in 2 channel Stereo mode.

The Front left/right Pre-outs are now connected to your external amps only.

 

[PENG]

That is poorly worded, what I mean is (if I have it right) we have to tell the AVR that we are using an 11 channel setup (whether we are or not) in order to kick the mains onto the pre-amp circuit that is not tied to an amp(?) to get the better performance!
Since these AVRs process 11 channels, but only have 9 amps, we are deceiving the AVR to believe that all 9 amps are spoken for with the front channels going to the preamp without also providing a signal to amps (like all of the other 9 channels would). (I'm asking, not telling!)

That's why I called it a "trick", i.e. we have to cheat the AVR. It obviously is not an feature designed for such use, but then we have Gene the genius who figured that out.

All 11.1 processing capable but have only 9 channels of internal amps would likely be subjected to this trick/cheat. Example: Yamaha RX-A3060/70/80. Units such as the AVR-X6300H and higher won't be fooled because they have 11 channels of amps build in. The AVR-X6200H should be able to do it because it has only 9 channels of internal amps.

 

[Pogre]

That is it, you can see that the amp assign menu now shows the front left/right amps assigned to two of the Heights, so if you connect a speaker to the front left or right speaker binding posts you won't get any sound in 2 channel Stereo mode.

The Front left/right Pre-outs are now connected to your external amps only.

Awesome. So now, what does using a RCA splitter in the front pre outs to split the signal for bi amping do to the pre out voltage? Does it drop, stay the same or change is so small it's inconsequential?

Yes, I'm bi amping my towers. I'm not deluded into thinking I can hear a night and day difference or anything. My towers do have separation between two 8" bass drivers and two 6.5" mids and tweeter tho and I have the spare channels and wire so I thought "why not?".

 

[PENG]

Awesome. So now, what does using a RCA splitter in the front pre outs to split the signal for bi amping do to the pre out voltage? Does it drop, stay the same or change is so small it's inconsequential?

Yes, I'm bi amping my towers. I'm not deluded into thinking I can hear a night and day difference or anything. My towers do have separation between two 8" bass drivers and two 6.5" mids and tweeter tho and I have the spare channels and wire so I thought "why not?".

I think the signal may degrade just a little, unless one of your external amp's input impedance are on the low side. My rationale is that, both Gene and Amir's alluded to the "fact" that the degradation was due to the power amp clipping when the pre-out voltage exceeds 1.2 V, and get progressively worse, to the point it would shutdown at 2 V in the lesser amps such as the Yamaha RX-A860, and RX-A1080.

So if they are right, and I doubt both EE would be wrong, then the culprit, at least the main/big one is power amp clipping, thereby sending back bad stuff the the preamp.

Having said that, if you connect two power amps via a Y-adapter, you will effectively lower the input impedance thereby increase the load to the preamps. If both external amps have high enough impedance such as 20 kΩ, then it is fine, but if they are anything less than 10 kΩ, it may degrade the signal a little, but again, at higher voltage only. In that case, the HDAMs may, or should help the situation. I don't know that for sure but I would imagine an extra buffer stage should help "buffering" the pre-outs a little better right? In fact, that may just be the only advantage of having HDAMs, that is, better buffering. In terms of distortions, it can only add, not subtract and that could be the reason why the Denon had better measured SINAD (definitely not audible to most humans) than the Marantz prepros measured so far.

 

[KEW]

Awesome. So now, what does using a RCA splitter in the front pre outs to split the signal for bi amping do to the pre out voltage? Does it drop, stay the same or change is so small it's inconsequential?

Yes, I'm bi amping my towers. I'm not deluded into thinking I can hear a night and day difference or anything. My towers do have separation between two 8" bass drivers and two 6.5" mids and tweeter tho and I have the spare channels and wire so I thought "why not?".

As long as splitting the signal does not cause a problem, doing this should be beneficial from a thermal perspective. You are essentially taking the heat and spreading it out better among the heatsinks of your Monolith. Working four channels moderately is always going to be more reliable than working two channels hard (or, as is more likely the case, four channels coasting is more reliable than two channels working moderately)

 

[jinjuku]

Only a few golden-ears will hear any benefits.

Actually, scratch that. If they are golden-ears, there’s no way they will give any AVR a chance in heck. All AVR’s are junks.

Golden-ears will always hear better sound from separates regardless of any kind of measurements.

So if we exclude golden-ears (since they regard AVR’s as junk), and we only include regular-ears, then NONE of these measurements make any difference in audible sound.

If I can get better measured performance for the same $$ I'll take it.

 

[Pogre]

Looks like

I think the signal may degrade just a little, unless one of your external amp's input impedance are on the low side. My rationale is that, both Gene and Amir's alluded to the "fact" that the degradation was due to the power amp clipping when the pre-out voltage exceeds 1.2 V, and get progressively worse, to the point it would shutdown at 2 V in the lesser amps such as the Yamaha RX-A860, and RX-A1080.

So if they are right, and I doubt both EE would be wrong, then the culprit, at least the main/big one is power amp clipping, thereby sending back bad stuff the the preamp.

Having said that, if you connect two power amps via a Y-adapter, you will effectively lower the input impedance thereby increase the load to the preamps. If both external amps have high enough impedance such as 20 kΩ, then it is fine, but if they are anything less than 10 kΩ, it may degrade the signal a little, but again, at higher voltage only. In that case, the HDAMs may, or should help the situation. I don't know that for sure but I would imagine an extra buffer stage should help "buffering" the pre-outs a little better right? In fact, that may just be the only advantage of having HDAMs, that is, better buffering. In terms of distortions, it can only add, not subtract and that could be the reason why the Denon had better measured SINAD (definitely not audible to most humans) than the Marantz prepros measured so far.

Looks like the input impedance for my Monolith is 28 kΩ.

I know it's all academic, but I don't care. Part of this hobby is tweaking every little aspect you can to squeeze out the best possible performance. I just plain like the feeling of knowing that something has been improved, audible or not. It's fun, this was a simple one and it's free!