The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

[John Galt]

For 399.00 looks beefy also, but the amp PC board seems half the size of the Outlaw monoblock.

Wouldn’t it be really cool to have an EE audio expert like Gene give his opinion on the design choices. I’ll bet just those few pictures would tell them volumes.

I’d really appreciate seeing this type of comparison. I’ll bet there are some basics that you could apply to other similar designs.

I know that the 2200 is a class G/AB design and I believe that may be indicated by the separate heat sinks with two transistors (I think that’s what they are) each...one for each different rail voltage based on current demand. (pictures 1 & 3) show what I’m referring to. The rear heat sink was hotter than the front, and there appears to be a thermal sensor mounted in this same area...which makes sense.

Since the A-300 is strictly class A/B you don’t see this similarity. Pictures 1, 5, and 8 illustrate the difference here.

I see that the two channel Emo has larger capacity capacitors in total compared to two 2200s.

That’s about as deep as I can go with my high school electronics knowledge

 

[John Galt]

I would never argue that they were not effective. Emotiva would not spend the money on them them if they did not make a difference. My point is that they are an add-on rather than integrated into the design. I like to see a better engineered product. The Emotiva is the only unit I remember seeing with fans blowing into the wall of the fins instead over the fins. This Denon AVR-X4500H is the most typical way to design for fan cooling:

I completely hear what you’re saying. I don’t know if the A-300 design is a cheap shortcut, or maybe the cooling needs aren’t all that high. What I DO know is it was as cool as a cucumber at all times. The warmest it ever got on the top was as warm as the 2200 is when watching the news at a low volume.

What I don’t know is the temperature of the heat sinks inside the case on the A-300. The case is larger and there is more clearance between the case and heat sinks (the 2200 is tightly packed top to bottom) so the case top temp may not tell me much of anything. My experience in cooling my old Denon 2312 with a small fan is that it doesn’t take a lot to take the edge off. Anything moving the air seems to have a large impact on removing heat.

 

[Gmoney]

Definitely put the Emotiova through the same test - your speakers at the same volumes and see how it fares!

Based on specifications, the 2200 is more capable:
Outlaw 2200


Emotiva A-300


Emotiva has superficially met the criteria of "doubling down" at 4 ohms, but at 20 times the distortion and only at 1 kHz bandwidth (as compared to 20Hz-20kHz)! Those are pretty substantial compromises to get the 300W rating@4 ohms, while the Outlaw is doing 300 Watts without having to give up THD or frequency range!
I consider this very poor form. Why doesn't Emotiva publish the power rating under more standard conditions for high quality gear?

That you are getting the 2200's to heat up that much makes me wonder about the load your B&W 683 S2 speakers present.

Here is the Impedance (solid) - Phase (dashed) graph:

I am far from qualified to interpret this graph, but the conditions between 600 to 700 Hz of <4 Ohms and Phase around 45 degrees seems to be pretty tough for any typical amp!
Hopefully someone with a better trained eye for these measurements can comment.

The Emotiva amp also disappoints me with how the two fans point straight into the cooling fins. In comparison to the QSC amp below, the fans in the A-300 look like they were added as an afterthought once they found out how quickly the unit overheated without a fan!:

Compare that to the QSC RMX-850 - their's has a tunnel with the cooling fins inside and the fan at the back draws air through the tunnel. This is so much more efficient!

KEW, nice comparison of the two amps, I doubt the EMO a300 could double down if it where tested at 20Hz -20kHz @ a 4 Ohm load. Emotiva has been known to Publish specs like this before with some of their amps. I could Imagine at a very high volume that amp driving 4 Ohm speaker’s could add THD or even run out of power. No doubt in my mind the Outlaw 2200 monoblock is the better of the two amps.

 

[KEW]

I completely hear what you’re saying. I don’t know if the A-300 design is a cheap shortcut, or maybe the cooling needs aren’t all that high. What I DO know is it was as cool as a cucumber at all times. The warmest it ever got on the top was as warm as the 2200 is when watching the news at a low volume.

What I don’t know is the temperature of the heat sinks inside the case on the A-300. The case is larger and there is more clearance between the case and heat sinks so the case top temp may not tell me much of anything. My experience in cooling my old Denon 2312 with a small fan is that it doesn’t take a lot to take the edge off. Anything moving the air seems to have a large impact on removing heat.

I would buy these for the 2200. Find the warmest vented space atop the 2200 and put them there:

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00IJ2J2K0/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=XR5CGPmmMS6Sime6JiVtWA&hsa_cr_id=2551234710201&ref_=sb_s_sparkle

I have never needed to do this with my 2200 which is why I believe the B&W's are a serious load. These fans have a three speed controller and I find simply leaving them on the lowest speed is very quiet and keeps my stack of two AVRs (for comparing speakers) plenty cool!

 

[Old Onkyo]

So, does that mean you can not stack the mono blocks on top of each other due to heat build up?

 

[John Galt]

So, does that mean you can not stack the mono blocks on top of each other due to heat build up?

Outlaw says 3 max I believe. You’d have to drive them REALLY hard to get the heat I experienced I’m guessing. I was torturing them to see what they’re really made of...within the confines of my limited knowledge.

 

[John Galt]

I would buy these for the 2200. Find the warmest vented space atop the 2200 and put them there:

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00IJ2J2K0/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=XR5CGPmmMS6Sime6JiVtWA&hsa_cr_id=2551234710201&ref_=sb_s_sparkle

I have never needed to do this with my 2200 which is why I believe the B&W's are a serious load. These fans have a three speed controller and I find simply leaving them on the lowest speed is very quiet and keeps my stack of two AVRs (for comparing speakers) plenty cool!

I like this option, but I’ll bet it would rarely have to kick in. It’s a 8 cans of Miller Lite after 1 AM Metallica and AC/DC at ~95 dB issue mostly

I’m also tempted to try out a pair of SVS Prime Pinnacles (Space sensitive, same size as 683 S2s), but I like how the B&W sound (I think) and don’t really have another home for them. The Audioholics disease is progressing nicely.

AC Infinity AIRCOM S10, Quiet Cooling Blower Fan System 17" Front-Exhaust

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-Front-Exhaust-Receivers-Components/dp/B078PX4575/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=avr+fan+ac+infinity&qid=1581045756&s=electronics&sr=1-1

 

[ryanosaur]

I listen loud at times, but my speakers don't present anywhere near the load that those B&Ws do. My 2200s barely get warm. And yes, those B&Ws have a reputation around that low impedance and bad phase angle... It creates a lot of heat in the amps that have to be dissipated.

 

[John Galt]

I listen loud at times, but my speakers don't present anywhere near the load that those B&Ws do. My 2200s barely get warm. And yes, those B&Ws have a reputation around that low impedance and bad phase angle... It creates a lot of heat in the amps that have to be dissipated.

Those Philharmonics look great. I wish I had the room for something like that.

 

[ryanosaur]

Those Philharmonics look great. I wish I had the room for something like that.

I've got them in an 11x15' room, about 2000'3, along with my Outlaw X-13s.

Yes, they could use more room, but they sound wonderful.

 

[KEW]

So, does that mean you can not stack the mono blocks on top of each other due to heat build up?

It all depends on what type of load you are asking them to drive. With any speaker I've used, they have not gotten very warm. However with a low impedance, high phase angle load like the B&W's represent, you would ideally need to start looking for abnormally rigorous amps (rated down to two or three ohms with gobs of power and add the dedicated circuits to your home to feed them) if you will habitually run them loud! I don't pay much attention to amps like that because I don't need to, but I think starting price is over $2,000.
You can probably get out for less if you go with pro audio gear. However anything is going to get a bit hot simply because there will be a lot of current running through the electronics!

 

[Gmoney]

It all depends on what type of load you are asking them to drive. With any speaker I've used, they have not gotten very warm. However with a low impedance, high phase angle load like the B&W's represent, you would ideally need to start looking for abnormally rigorous amps (rated down to two or three ohms with gobs of power and add the dedicated circuits to your home to feed them) if you will habitually run them loud! I don't pay much attention to amps like that because I don't need to, but I think starting price is over $2,000.
You can probably get out for less if you go with pro audio gear. However anything is going to get a bit hot simply because there will be a lot of current running through the electronics!

Them British speakers really tax amps that hard?

 

[KEW]

Them British speakers really tax amps that hard?

See post #218 for impedence and phase chart for these B&W speakers that John has. Looks pretty bad to me, but I'm not the best resource on interpreting that chart.

 

[ryanosaur]

Them British speakers really tax amps that hard?

B&W and Polk seem to be the worst common offenders. 600 and 700 series from Bowers both do it (iirc) and the older RTiA and LSiM lines from Polk have similar issues.
I don’t know how the new Polk line fairs... haven’t seen those benched yet.

 

[Pogre]

I like this option, but I’ll bet it would rarely have to kick in. It’s a 8 cans of Miller Lite after 1 AM Metallica and AC/DC at ~95 dB issue mostly

I’m also tempted to try out a pair of SVS Prime Pinnacles (Space sensitive, same size as 683 S2s), but I like how the B&W sound (I think) and don’t really have another home for them. The Audioholics disease is progressing nicely.

AC Infinity AIRCOM S10, Quiet Cooling Blower Fan System 17" Front-Exhaust

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-Front-Exhaust-Receivers-Components/dp/B078PX4575/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=avr+fan+ac+infinity&qid=1581045756&s=electronics&sr=1-1

I love my Ultras. Much prefer them over the B&W offerings within my price range that I've heard. @shadyJ seemed pretty impressed with the Pinnacles. They share the same midrange driver as the Ultras and I'm assuming same build quality, crossover components, etc.

I say go for it! If you don't like them, for whatever reason, they'll take 'em back and pay the shipping so it's 100% risk free. You have 45 (Or is it 60 now?) days to make up your mind.

 

[PENG]

Wow, this is getting interesting. Thanks to John Galt who has provided a lot of useful info. I would have to dig into the A-300 and maybe then try and do a quick comparison based on available info. For now I would say if the A-300 doubles down, that's likely (just educated guess for now though..), it is not a real double down but marketing technique/or "ploy"..

 

[John Galt]

Wow, this is getting interesting. Thanks to John Galt who has provided a lot of useful info. I would have to dig into the A-300 and maybe then try and do a quick comparison based on available info. For now I would say if the A-300 doubles down, that's likely (just educated guess for now though..), it is not a real double down but marketing technique/or "ploy"..

Thanks for the encouragement PENG. I’m really having a lot of fun with all of this.

 

[PENG]

I’m kind of torn between these 2200s and an Emotiva A-300 that I also just got, and after seeing how hot these can get with my setup it’s got me thinking really hard about keeping the A-300 with it’s two integrated cooling fans.

Before you made that decision, I suggest you do more research and may be wait for the ASR review on the M2200 that KEW said would be done in a few weeks iirc.

There is a thread about the A-300's fan issues (not everyone has that obviously).

A-300 noise | The Emotiva Lounge

I took delivery yesterday on a BASX A-300 which I purchased new thru my local cherished Audio dealer here in South Florida. In order to "break it in" and get it up to speed ASAP I let it play music

emotivalounge.proboards.com

How did you know you "pushed the M2200 to "maximum"? In fact, I highly doubt it was at rated output. Class AB amps typically should run cooler at or near rated output than at lower levels of between 1/4 to 1/2 rated output based on what I read from more than one technical website. I'll link the article if I can find it.

Outlaw uses the kind of class G that should allow it to run cool for most movies and music that are not compressed, i.e. steadily loud, unless Jazz, Classical and most pops. If it is like rock music that tend to be loud all the time, then the pair of output devices that are used full time will get warm. That issue could be solved easily by placing a single AC infinity 120 mm fan on top, set to the slowest speed and you won't hear it from a few feet away.

 

[Movie2099]

If anyone is interested in purchasing a few used 2200 Mono blocks, I saw on Audiogon.com a couple of people are selling two 2200 monoblocks each. You could potentially get 4 mono blocks for around $1000. With some negotiations i'm sure you could get them all for $900. Not a bad deal for 4 of them. Just thought I would throw it out there if anybody is looking for some cheaper amps.

 

[KEW]

Before you made that decision, I suggest you do more research and may be wait for the ASR review on the M2200 that KEW said would be done in a few weeks iirc.

There is a thread about the A-300's fan issues (not everyone has that obviously).

A-300 noise | The Emotiva Lounge

I took delivery yesterday on a BASX A-300 which I purchased new thru my local cherished Audio dealer here in South Florida. In order to "break it in" and get it up to speed ASAP I let it play music

emotivalounge.proboards.com

How did you know you "pushed the M2200 to "maximum"? In fact, I highly doubt it was at rated output. Class AB amps typically should run cooler at or near rated output than at lower levels of between 1/4 to 1/2 rated output based on what I read from more than one technical website. I'll link the article if I can find it.

Outlaw uses the kind of class G that should allow it to run cool for most movies and music that are not compressed, i.e. steadily loud, unless Jazz, Classical and most pops. If it is like rock music that tend to be loud all the time, then the pair of output devices that are used full time will get warm. That issue could be solved easily by placing a single AC infinity 120 mm fan on top, set to the slowest speed and you won't hear it from a few feet away.

Wow!
Looking at the thread you linked, it is sad to see how Emotiva has strayed from their earlier attitude of customer service/participation!
The Emotiva rep, KeithL is more in the role of damage control/spin (which any rep would do), but then when they are asked if the defect is normal, Emotiva has not responded since asked 12/11/19! I have to wonder if the new ownership is planning to milk the name for what they can then liquidate the company!
I guess they are no longer a strictly ID company, but to turn your back on an Emotiva Forum thread about a likely defective concern without any comment seems pretty cavalier/reckless for a company that built its reputation on the internet. ...and the Emotiva fan boys who are trying to maintain a positive spin are left out on a limb.
Combined with the way they refused to repair Gene's amplifier, Emotive is off of my recommend list. I think Danny Laufmann (sp?) is still designing their amps and I am sure they are still solid basic designs. I suspect that Danny would have rather spent more time integrating a cooling system when they established the A300 got hot, but the new management restricted his time/budget for this project. I say this because all of the design engineers I know take quite a bit of pride in doing things well when they have the freedom to.
But my point is Emotiva as a company has lost a lot thanks to policies that do not seem in it for the long haul. They are still reasonable products at fairly low prices, but do not represent the bargains of the past. As a matter of principle, I would stay away unless you are getting an especially good deal/discount.

Edit: But @John Galt and the Outlaw 2200, definitely wait on the forthcoming measurements from Amir before you settle on the 2200!