The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

How likely are you to buy this Monoblock?

  • 100%

    Votes: 10 16.7%
  • 50%

    Votes: 15 25.0%
  • 0% - I have no need for any more amps

    Votes: 16 26.7%
  • 0% - I might change amps, but not these amps

    Votes: 4 6.7%
  • 0% - I want to match my amps with Pre-pro and I don’t own an Outlaw Pre-Pro

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • What is a monoblock???

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Already have one or more

    Votes: 13 21.7%

  • Total voters
    60
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I just want to know about actual audibility rather than spec-encouraged audibility possibilites. If you can demonstrate your ability to determine particular levels of THD audibility with what particular gear I'd be impressed but I certainly don't expect you to be able to do so....
One way to look at it is 0 dB SPL is inaudible by definition. A reasonably quiet room for example has 40 dB of ambient noise but this sound is not generally in the frequencies that humans are most sensitive. It is lower frequency. I have read that humans can detect sound 30 dB below the noise floor. So a very conservative estimate 10 dB of distortion. An amplifier that produces .03% distortion has distortion attenuation of -70 dB. Driving an 87 dB efficient speaker at .03% THD has 17 dB of distortion. Theoretically, this could be audible depending on character and frequency. A 100 db efficient speaker would have 30 dB of THD and this would be audible. So listning levels, distortion character, speaker efficiency, and room contribute to audibility. It is not what THD I can hear it is what is suitable in a system for a specific person. Of course, if you want to be safe, I would like an amp and system close to 80 dB attenuation in my system at my lowest listening level.

Most amplifier specifications are at near maximum power where they have the highest S/N. The performance at 1 watt and below may be better but is often worse.
Amplifier THD specifications do not include transient amplitude errors and do not include phase. I am stating that these are issue, they may not be. However, we are clearly not measuring everything that matters.

That said, in my experience well built Class A/B amplifiers operating within their range sound similarly good. Some however, some have more transformer hum and hiss. This is not always constant as well. Those with very efficient horn speakers find amps with hiss unacceptable. I found transformer hum unacceptable.

I understand the thinking of many on this and other forums, essentially stop me before I kill again (meaning spend useless money). I try some gear and endeavor only to spend useful money within my budget. I will relate my impressions and reasoning. Since I remain a student, I hope to continue to learn. ;)

- Rich
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
One way to look at it is 0 dB SPL is inaudible by definition. A reasonably quiet room for example has 40 dB of ambient noise but this sound is not generally in the frequencies that humans are most sensitive. It is lower frequency. I have read that humans can detect sound 30 dB below the noise floor. So a very conservative estimate 10 dB of distortion. An amplifier that produces .03% distortion has distortion attenuation of -70 dB. Driving an 87 dB efficient speaker at .03% THD has 17 dB of distortion. Theoretically, this could be audible depending on character and frequency.

Most amplifier specifications are at near maximum power where they have the highest S/N. The performance at 1 watt and below may be better but is often worse.
Amplifier THD specifications do not include transient amplitude errors and do not include phase. I am stating that these are issue, they may not be. However, we are clearly not measuring everything that matters.

That said, in my experience well built Class A/B amplifiers operating within their range sound similarly good. Some however, some have more transformer hum and hiss. This is not always constant as well. Those with very efficient horn speakers find such amps unacceptable. I found transformer hum unacceptable.

I understand the thinking of many on this and other forums, essentially stop me before I kill again (meaning spend useless money). I try some gear and endeavor only to spend useful money within my budget. I will relate my impressions and reasoning. Since, I remain a student, I hope to continue to learn. ;)

- Rich
Not going to change my mind with this sort of "reasoning". Not my experience by any measure with a wide variety of gear.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Not going to change my mind with this sort of "reasoning". Not my experience by any measure with a wide variety of gear.
Irrelevant really.

The only number guaranteed to be inaudible, is 0 dB SPL as this is THE definition.
After that a number that is greater than that has to be selected because this is unattainable.

I have settled on -80 dB of attenuation maximum that is .01 THD at all levels.
Since these specs are not worst case, perhaps some headroom should be added.
If I had horns, then a even less THD is desirable.

If that makes no sense to you, select what you will.
If you have reasoning, you have yet to post it here.

- Rich
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Irrelevant really.

The only number guaranteed to be inaudible, is 0 dB SPL as this is THE definition.
After that a number that is greater than that has to be selected because this is unattainable.

I have settled on -80 dB of attenuation which maximum .01 at all levels.
Since these specs are not worst case, perhaps some headroom should be added.
If I had horns, then a even less THD is desirable.

If that makes no sense to you, select what you will.
If you have reasoning, you have yet to post it here.

- Rich
0dB spl or the less than 1W you propose? Just how do you tie all this together just in case I'm being a bit dense or specific?
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
0dB spl or the less than 1W you propose? Just how do you tie all this together just in case I'm being a bit dense or specific?
I have measured the SPL at my listening position and it happens to match the Salon2 efficiency of 86 dB.
Now, I don't listen to 86 dB often and even if when I do, much of a track will be softer and therefore less than 1 watt.
10 dB less for dynamic content is 1/10'th the power or .1 watt to produce 76 dB.
The dB of distortion at low levels now becomes important, far more important than at 200 watts or more (assuming that any amp should not clip for its intended use).

In this example, an amplifier with -76 dB of distortion attenuation is by definition contributing zero audible distortion.
That is what the math tells us. An amplifier with 0.1 THD would have 60 dB of attenuation and 16 dB of distortion.
Still, low and likely inaudible. However, this is one example and the amount of tolerable distortion depends on the system, room, and listener.

There are many amplifiers that can produce inaudible levels of distortion for any system, including class-D, so selecting such an amplifier need not be prohibitively expensive.

- Rich
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I can send a 2200 for him to test!
Give me info on how to set it up either here or via PM as appropriate!
Thanks!
Just wanted to provide an update in case someone is considering buying one of these.
I sent mine to Amirm and he should be testing it in the ball park of 3 weeks from now!
Looking forward to seeing measurements on his forum and hopefully some practical discussion of their interpretation here!
Here is link to Amirm's website:
 
Shanman

Shanman

Audioholic
Cool, hopefully Outlaw will leave up the current promotion for those to take advantage of positive results!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Just wanted to provide an update in case someone is considering buying one of these.
I sent mine to Amirm and he should be testing it in the ball park of 3 weeks from now!
Looking forward to seeing measurements on his forum and hopefully some practical discussion of their interpretation here!
Here is link to Amirm's website:
Very cool, Kew. Your Audioholic Altruism is commendable.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
That amp is designed to be a value oriented product, i.e. $/W. Based on the measurements of its predecessor, I don't expect it to rank in the orange bucket. I think it will do better than the Crown XLS1502 in both the 5W and maximum output tests, probably comparable to the AVRs measured so far, I mean the better ones, not the two at the bottom.:D Its unbalanced sensitivity would be about 28 dB regardless of what Outlaw's specs indicate, but I am very curious about what it would be for balanced. For some reason, Outlaw don't seem to pay attention to their sensitivity specs accuracy/consistency at all, so hopefully Amir will help them out lol..
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
That’s a nice deal. I wonder if they have a new version coming out.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Never seen the price went that low before, are they "B" stocks?
Nope. They have b-stock listed as available, $319 ea.
That’s a nice deal. I wonder if they have a new version coming out.
That would be interesting. Would be more awesome still if they were gonna partner with Hypex and release a good budget friendly NCore here in the US.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Yeah but expect a nice price jump those Hypex amp modules are not cheap..
I can buy the parts to DIY the mono NC400 module, SMPS and a Case for about $568 each. :) Yes, more expensive, but possibly worth it if they could offer it at a better price than ATI!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I can buy the parts to DIY the mono NC400 module, SMPS and a Case for about $568 each. :) Yes, more expensive, but possibly worth it if they could offer it at a better price than ATI!
$568 all in, two channels?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
$568 all in, two channels?
Mono, as I wrote above. :)

+
+

I didn't deep dive:
> to confirm if any additional connector cables are required, but over the last couple weeks looking, it doesn't seem they are an expensive inclusion.
> to determine shipping costs from Hypex/DIY-ClassD... I'm sure there will be some. Also, the chassis from Ghent is free shipping.

You can also buy their complete mono kit for ~$638 US

There's one guy (that I know of for certain) over at that other site that has built them... Also New Record Day has a video, fwiw.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Mono, as I wrote above. :)

+
+

I didn't deep dive:
> to confirm if any additional connector cables are required, but over the last couple weeks looking, it doesn't seem they are an expensive inclusion.
> to determine shipping costs from Hypex/DIY-ClassD... I'm sure there will be some. Also, the chassis from Ghent is free shipping.

You can also buy their complete mono kit for ~$638 US

There's one guy (that I know of for certain) over at that other site that has built them... Also New Record Day has a video, fwiw.
You did, I missed, because I got the impression that your thought there weren't expensive (by my standard) so that's a good example of expectation bias/error on my part:D:D..

So that's why I thought they weren't cheap, compared to the M2200. I am debating if I should start my next DIY amp using the first watt amp, or go for the Hypex instead, until I checked on the cost side of the equation.

The test bench results of the Hypex amp will definitely be much better than the M2200 from 1 W to rated W. Again, I expect the M2200 may not even make it to Amir's orange bucket. I do believe audible results would be the same though for 99.9% of the population if not higher, when both are used well below their rated output, and of course, all else being equal.. For mono block, in terms of $/W that Outlaw amp when on sale, is hard to beat.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Amir's review of the Hypex amp...from Nord was pretty convincing:
seems like you need to be in direct contact with Hypex to get the modules to build the NC500.
Regardless, I'm not going anywhere, yet. :) I would love to pick up some extra 2200s for rounding out my system, in anticipation of the HTP-1 (perhaps next year?).
I'm more thinking about when I build my own speakers, it might be nice to have the hypex as an option. ;)

It would be cool if Outlaw picked that up. Especially considering their relationship to ATI... It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see something like that happen. Of course, as well as the HTP-1 seems to be doing, perhaps it will be ATI + Monolith. :p

:cool:

(I love aimless speculation.)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Amir's review of the Hypex amp...from Nord was pretty convincing:
seems like you need to be in direct contact with Hypex to get the modules to build the NC500.
Regardless, I'm not going anywhere, yet. :) I would love to pick up some extra 2200s for rounding out my system, in anticipation of the HTP-1 (perhaps next year?).
I'm more thinking about when I build my own speakers, it might be nice to have the hypex as an option. ;)

It would be cool if Outlaw picked that up. Especially considering their relationship to ATI... It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see something like that happen. Of course, as well as the HTP-1 seems to be doing, perhaps it will be ATI + Monolith. :p

:cool:

(I love aimless speculation.)
I bet Outlaw will go that route within a year or two. It makes business sense, the trend it to go light, save on shipping costs and consequently become more environmentally friendly. Class A was crazy, followed by many pure class AB amps. Class D or similar is definitely the way to go.
 

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