Bass still perform at a level below my expectation

[ryanosaur]

@Bin
You are getting a lot of really good info here. I get the feeling you are still suffering a disconnect somewhere along the line. Please be encouraged to dig deeper into how all this gear works together. You do not need to be an acoustics or engineering expert to do so and enjoy GREAT HT or Music.
I want to add, that throwing an amp at your rig is not a magic bullet. A good amp may be good for your speakers, but until you learn about why, telling you the Impedance and Phase Angle presents a tough load won't mean much to you. An Amp will not make your speakers 'blossom' or 'open up;' it will not make them sound any different. It may save your AVR unless you are using a higher end Yamaha.
Your Crossover at 60Hz is probably too low.
I think your subs are too small for your room.
These are things you need to dig in to and learn about. There are a lot of great people here, as well as informative resources.
Cheers!

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you everyone for responding.
To be completely honest, i am new to HT set up hence i started with SVS satellite with a 5.1 system a year ago and gradually invest to upgrade the system.

Just 2 days ago, my newly purchased main speakers arrived, the Polk LSIM 707 and 706C.
So now i changed up my entire system to be only 3.2 :

Living Room size : approx 22ft L X 11ft W (with high ceiling)​

AVR : Yamaha TSR 7810 (95WPC X 2)​

Main LR : Polk LSIM 707​

Main C : Polk LSIM 707C​

Subs : Dual PB1000​

Usual AVR volume played : between -35 to -28​

Here's what i notice so far after 2 days of trial on the new system.

1. I ran YPAO room correction, and adjusted all my 3 speakers to be Small.
   Towers : xo at 60hz (tried 80hz, didn't like it as it didn't go deep enough
   Centre : xo at 80hz (i like dialogue than bass here)
2. I can hear more depth, clarity and tightness from these new speakers which is great comparing to my previous satellite speakers. I can also hear some of the sound that i wasn't able to get from satellite speakers.
3. From a volume standpoint, i didn't feel like it's much louder than the satellite. I test listen to the same level of loudness (eg -36 on AVR), the loudness are almost the same if i compare Polk to SVS satellite, except Polk gave me a little more detail. I guess this has to do with how YPAO adjusted and level everything up to the room acoustic.
4. From a bass standpoint, after adjusted the tower to xo at 60hz. It sounded better now.
   But the subs hardly come on now, unless the source of the movie/song go deeper then it will turn on. There was a clip played on my TV yesterday, and that turned on the bass from tower as well as the subs and it shook the floor (sweet)..........but like i mentioned earlier, i CANNOT feel that subs that often anymore maybe because of majority of the bass load was taken over by the towers.

Now i am exploring adding a power amp so that these Polk speakers can have a little more dynamics and headroom to work with since they can take up to 250hz to 300hz load, my current AVR isn't powerful enough to give them that.
If after adding the power amp, and i don't feel any difference then i am going to just return the amp .
If i do feel the difference, then i will add back two of m satellite speakers as surround to make the system back to 5.2.

Power amp that i am exploring now is Monoprice Monolith 200WPC X 3.
I was looking at Emotiva XPA3 Gen3, however it's dimension is way too deep to put into my cabinet.
I looked at Outlaw Model2200 too, however i don't have enough power outlet to plug in 3 of them.

Any further expert feedback/advice you guys can provide will be super helpful.
THANK YOU.

A few things come to mind here. First I'm not sure what you mean by the subs "come on" If you mean that the subs are going into standby and the on light only comes on when there is deep bass, then your sub is not adjusted correctly. If that is the case you need to turn down the volume of the sub and increase the output from the receiver. That way the sub will get a strong enough signal when you are using your rig. The sub should not go off except after a period of no use.

Next those speakers are actually problematic. They cross to the midrange from the woofers at 100 Hz. Designing a passive crossover at 100 Hz is a really bad idea on numerous counts. It is compounded when using a sub. If you crossover at 80 Hz then you crossover points are only one quarter octave apart. I would never conceive a system like that ever. Crossovers should ideally be placed 3 octaves apart and at least 2, otherwise you get terrible interactions. So that is why it probably does sound better with the 60 Hz crossover. I would try raising the crossover above 100 Hz to negate that 100 Hz passive crossover in the Polks.

However that goes right to what I was talking about. That leaves just one 6.5" mid/woofer to handle where the bass power really is between 120 and 350 Hz. So in the end you are no further ahead than a book shelf. Optimal crossover points for three way speakers are 400 to 500 Hz on the low end and 3.5Khz to 4 KHz on the top end.

As you probably gather I have serious concerns and reservations about that series of Polk speakers and have in the past described them as a kamikaze design by a Moron. I personally would never come up with anything like that for one of my designs. It brakes so many of the basic tenants of good speaker design it is beyond belief. If you have the right of return take it. We can then help you. You can do much better then those Polks.

 

[Pogre]

A few things come to mind here. First I'm not sure what you mean by the subs "come on" If you mean that the subs are going into standby and the on light only comes on when there is deep bass, then your sub is not adjusted correctly. If that is the case you need to turn down the volume of the sub and increase the output from the receiver. That way the sub will get a strong enough signal when you are using your rig. The sub should not go off except after a period of no use.

Next those speakers are actually problematic. They cross to the midrange from the woofers at 100 Hz. Designing a passive crossover at 100 Hz is a really bad idea on numerous counts. It is compounded when using a sub. If you crossover at 80 Hz then you crossover points are only one quarter octave apart. I would never conceive a system like that ever. Crossovers should ideally be placed 3 octaves apart and at least 2, otherwise you get terrible interactions. So that is why it probably does sound better with the 60 Hz crossover. I would try raising the crossover above 100 Hz to negate that 100 Hz passive crossover in the Polks.

However that goes right to what I was talking about. That leaves just one 6.5" mid/woofer to handle where the bass power really is between 120 and 350 Hz. So in the end you are no further ahead than a book shelf. Optimal crossover points for three way speakers are 400 to 500 Hz on the low end and 3.5Khz to 4 KHz on the top end.

As you probably gather I have serious concerns and reservations about that series of Polk speakers and have in the past described them as a kamikaze design by a Moron. I personally would never come up with anything like that for one of my designs. It brakes so many of the basic tenants of good speaker design it is beyond belief. If you have the right of return take it. We can then help you. You can do much better then those Polks.

I suspect also that his subs are too small for his room. That could be why the gains would be turned up more (if they are) than the norm. I agree with the higher crossover as well.

As to the rest, well, I don't design and build speakers so I can't really comment, tho I've seen some positive reviews (with some comments of being difficult to drive) on the LSiMs. However I've never had an opportunity to listen to them.

 

[TLS Guy]

I suspect also that his subs are too small for his room. That could be why the gains would be turned up more (if they are) than the norm. I agree with the higher crossover as well.

As to the rest, well, I don't design and build speakers so I can't really comment, tho I've seen some positive reviews (with some comments of being difficult to drive) on the LSiMs. However I've never had an opportunity to listen to them.

You can find a good review on anything, no matter how awful or useless. If you design a speaker like that it will be a difficult drive.

By the way, it is time you did design a speaker. You know you really want to!

 

[Bin]

I just hunted up the link for the good ol' SPL Calculator we love so much around here!

@Bin if you punch in your speaker info (senstivity) and distance from them this SPL Calculator it will give you a pretty good idea of your power requirements. Make sure you put 2 speakers and tick the box if they're close to a wall or in a corner and it'll calculate wattage needed to reach the proper sound level at your seat.

I've used it a hundred times but I still like playing around with it.

*Edit: as an example, I'm 14' from my speakers and need about 2 watts to hit 85 dB where I sit.

Pogre, thanks. I did that calculation before.
Here's a screen shot of what i put in. My seat distance is about 4 meters from the speakers, hence 13.1 feets. My AVR is rated at 95WPC X 2, so i put in 95.

I look at the end of this table, it shows 103db. Sorry for the dummy question, does this means that my current AVR is able to pump out this volume without clipping of damaging the speakers? Means i don't have to spend money to add power amp?

 

[Pogre]

Pogre, thanks. I did that calculation before.
Here's a screen shot of what i put in. My seat distance is about 4 meters from the speakers, hence 13.1 feets. My AVR is rated at 95WPC X 2, so i put in 95.

I look at the end of this table, it shows 103db. Sorry for the dummy question, does this means that my current AVR is able to pump out this volume without clipping of damaging the speakers? Means i don't have to spend money to add power amp?
View attachment 31223

Phew. Well, I'm probably gonna need an assist on that question. First I see that you entered 3 speakers. You won't normally have all 3 up front playing the same thing at the same time. I always enter 2. As far as getting 103.5 dB continuously like that you'll likely damage something at that volume. 103.5 dB is incredibly loud tho, and you said your normal volume is less than half of that (-35 on the reference volume scale is about 50 dB where you sit after running setup) Like TLS explained those speakers can be difficult to drive so an amp would help your receiver out by taking on that difficult load, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to sound any different, especially at lower volumes like you use.

 

[Pogre]

You can find a good review on anything, no matter how awful or useless. If you design a speaker like that it will be a difficult drive.

By the way, it is time you did design a speaker. You know you really want to!

I really do! I would really like to tackle a TLS design, but I'm thinking baby steps first. Maybe a nice 2 way bookshelf speaker to start. That'll be simpler and a good way to get my feet wet.

 

[ryanosaur]

@Bin
I would greatly recommend upgrading those subs to something that can support your Room, volumetrically speaking. PB1000 are supposed to be good subs, but not for a very large or extreme room size. You should be looking at 2 PB3000, frankly, or similar product from other ID companies (here in the US... I see you using Metric, Canada or Europe? )

If you get your sub situation figured out, you can probably take the worst part of your speaker performance out of the equation and not have to worry about an Amp. This is one approach. Frankly, I like some other advice I saw... return the Polks and get more friendly speakers!

 

[Bin]

Phew. Well, I'm probably gonna need an assist on that question. First I see that you entered 3 speakers. You won't normally have all 3 up front playing the same thing at the same time. I always enter 2. As far as getting 103.5 dB continuously like that you'll likely damage something at that volume. 103.5 dB is incredibly loud tho, and you said your normal volume is less than half of that (-35 on the reference volume scale is about 50 dB where you sit after running setup) Like TLS explained those speakers can be difficult to drive so an amp would help your receiver out by taking on that difficult load, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to sound any different, especially at lower volumes like you use.

OK, i changed it to 2 speakers now.
And yes i normally run around -38db on AVR volume, the max i go is around -25db which gets enough volume to fill the room.

And as per TLS Guy recommendation, i will go back and changed the xo of the towers to above 80hz and see how it goes.
Right now, my subs volume gain nob is at 2 o'clock. YPAO set AVR level at -5db, i manually adjusted the AVR level up by 3db to -2db as i like deeper/harder bass.
Let me try later to adjust the volume gain nob on the subs itself to 12 o'clock and readjust and see how it goes.

In this case, i will hold off to buy a new power amp.

 

[Bin]

Sadly, returning the Polk isn't an option.
Secondly, it takes a lot of muscle to move those beasts.......i will try to make it with what i have right now.

 

[Pogre]

@Bin
I would greatly recommend upgrading those subs to something that can support your Room, volumetrically speaking. PB1000 are supposed to be good subs, but not for a very large or extreme room size. You should be looking at 2 PB3000, frankly, or similar product from other ID companies (here in the US... I see you using Metric, Canada or Europe? )

I think this would be your best bet if you're looking for real improvements. If you get the right subs and set them up properly you likely will be okay without an amp unless you start listening at a lot higher volumes. If I were you I'd take my amp money and put it into subwoofers. Some friendlier speakers with better design might be on my short list too.

 

[Pogre]

OK, i changed it to 2 speakers now.
And yes i normally run around -38db on AVR volume, the max i go is around -25db which gets enough volume to fill the room.

And as per TLS Guy recommendation, i will go back and changed the xo of the towers to above 80hz and see how it goes.
Right now, my subs volume gain nob is at 2 o'clock. YPAO set AVR level at -5db, i manually adjusted the AVR level up by 3db to -2db as i like deeper/harder bass.
Let me try later to adjust the volume gain nob on the subs itself to 12 o'clock and readjust and see how it goes.

In this case, i will hold off to buy a new power amp.

View attachment 31224

Yeah, 2 o'clock for your gain is pretty high from my experience. -5 for trim levels is pretty good (at a lower gain setting), and I bump mine up a little after setup too. That's very common. Based on the info you just gave me I am sure that you need some more powerful subs. I have the gains on both of mine at about 9 o'clock and room correction set my trim levels at -9 and -9.5.

 

[baronvonellis]

Yes, I agree having the Polk crossover at 100 hz with the sub crossed over at 80 hz wont work very well. I also don't think you can get good bass out of 6" drivers, I always get better results from 8" drivers or bigger. I've listened to speakers from the same company and range and the ones with 8" woofers always have fuller and punchier bass than 6" woofers, they just don't move the air the same. That gets to that power band range of 500hz and below.

Incidentally, on the piano middle C is 261hz. Since I play piano and keyboards, the bass on a piano is always below middle C and treble is above middle C. It just sounds natural to have sounds below 400-500hz to be full and bassy, you want something that really moves the air below 500hz not just 80hz. Below 80hz are only the lowest notes in music, there a whole range of bass notes and foundational chords that are played from 80-500hz. Anyway, that why it's better musically to have the crossover be around 400-500hz for the bass.

The highest note on a piano is only 4186hz, and you rarely play notes in music that high. It sounds like a bright chirp. Usually the melody would be around 1khz, so above 4000hz are overtones in music.

 

[Bin]

Yeah, 2 o'clock for your gain is pretty high from my experience. -5 for trim levels is pretty good (at a lower gain setting), and I bump mine up a little after setup too. That's very common. Based on the info you just gave me I am sure that you need some more powerful subs. I have the gains on both of mine at about 9 o'clock and room correction set my trim levels at -9 and -9.5.

Pogre, what's sub are you using? Volume gain nob at 9 o'clock that's really low, i guess they must be monster subs .

My room size is approx 22ft L X 11ft W (with high ceiling), that's on the rectangular shape. Technically it's a L shape room, but i didn't measure the L shape part since we don't watch from that area.

I kind of agree that the dual PB1000 won't be "loud" enough to fill the room. If i move myself close to the subs, i can hear the thumping......but once i move back to my seating position, the thump becomes weak.
Was checking out SVS PB3000 , PB4000 and also Monolith 15. I hope the PB3000 is enough to fill the room since it's the cheapest option.

 

[Gmoney]

Thank you everyone for responding.
To be completely honest, i am new to HT set up hence i started with SVS satellite with a 5.1 system a year ago and gradually invest to upgrade the system.

Just 2 days ago, my newly purchased main speakers arrived, the Polk LSIM 707 and 706C.
So now i changed up my entire system to be only 3.2 :

Living Room size : approx 22ft L X 11ft W (with high ceiling)​

AVR : Yamaha TSR 7810 (95WPC X 2)​

Main LR : Polk LSIM 707​

Main C : Polk LSIM 707C​

Subs : Dual PB1000​

Usual AVR volume played : between -35 to -28​

Here's what i notice so far after 2 days of trial on the new system.

1. I ran YPAO room correction, and adjusted all my 3 speakers to be Small.
   Towers : xo at 60hz (tried 80hz, didn't like it as it didn't go deep enough
   Centre : xo at 80hz (i like dialogue than bass here)
2. I can hear more depth, clarity and tightness from these new speakers which is great comparing to my previous satellite speakers. I can also hear some of the sound that i wasn't able to get from satellite speakers.
3. From a volume standpoint, i didn't feel like it's much louder than the satellite. I test listen to the same level of loudness (eg -36 on AVR), the loudness are almost the same if i compare Polk to SVS satellite, except Polk gave me a little more detail. I guess this has to do with how YPAO adjusted and level everything up to the room acoustic.
4. From a bass standpoint, after adjusted the tower to xo at 60hz. It sounded better now.
   But the subs hardly come on now, unless the source of the movie/song go deeper then it will turn on. There was a clip played on my TV yesterday, and that turned on the bass from tower as well as the subs and it shook the floor (sweet)..........but like i mentioned earlier, i CANNOT feel that subs that often anymore maybe because of majority of the bass load was taken over by the towers.

Now i am exploring adding a power amp so that these Polk speakers can have a little more dynamics and headroom to work with since they can take up to 250hz to 300hz load, my current AVR isn't powerful enough to give them that.
If after adding the power amp, and i don't feel any difference then i am going to just return the amp .
If i do feel the difference, then i will add back two of m satellite speakers as surround to make the system back to 5.2.

Power amp that i am exploring now is Monoprice Monolith 200WPC X 3.
I was looking at Emotiva XPA3 Gen3, however it's dimension is way too deep to put into my cabinet.
I looked at Outlaw Model2200 too, however i don't have enough power outlet to plug in 3 of them.

Any further expert feedback/advice you guys can provide will be super helpful.
THANK YOU.

Those Polk LSiM 707's are placement critical, They need room to breathe. They also have what's called a power port, which is supposed to enhance bass output. So maybe move them out some from your back wall or toe-in more. See if dialing in your subs at or right below the the Bass output of your Towers.

 

[Pogre]

Pogre, what's sub are you using? Volume gain nob at 9 o'clock that's really low, i guess they must be monster subs .

My room size is approx 22ft L X 11ft W (with high ceiling),that's on the rectangular shape. Technically it's a L shape room, but i didn't measure the L shape part since we don't watch from that area.

I kind of agree that the dual PB1000 won't be "loud" enough to fill the room. If i move myself close to the subs, i can hear the thumping......but once i move back to my seating position, the thump becomes weak.
Was checking out SVS PB3000 , PB4000 and also Monolith 15. I hope the PB3000 is enough to fill the room since it's the cheapest option.

I have a pair of HSU VTF -3 MK5s in a very large room.

When it comes to bass and subwoofers how close or far you sit isn't as important as the space you're filling. The L part of your room should be measured and accounted for because a sub will "see" the entire space. Bass flows out in all directions and your goal is to pressurize all of the space that's open to your room.

If you have the means I really like the PB4000 subwoofer. I believe a couple of those would more than do it. You might get away with a pair PB3000s also. If you contact SVS and let them know how much space you have (all of it, including the L part) they can help you find the right fit. I don't know if HSU is available to you, but I went with them because their prices are a little more friendly. SVS make some very nice looking subwoofers that are very good performers as well, but you're paying a little more for looks and return policies with them. If I had more money I'd have a pair of their PB16 Ultras right now.

 

[lovinthehd]

Phew. Well, I'm probably gonna need an assist on that question. First I see that you entered 3 speakers. You won't normally have all 3 up front playing the same thing at the same time. I always enter 2. As far as getting 103.5 dB continuously like that you'll likely damage something at that volume. 103.5 dB is incredibly loud tho, and you said your normal volume is less than half of that (-35 on the reference volume scale is about 50 dB where you sit after running setup) Like TLS explained those speakers can be difficult to drive so an amp would help your receiver out by taking on that difficult load, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to sound any different, especially at lower volumes like you use.

100 to 50 dB isn't "half". dB is logarithmic, not linear. Every 3dB spl represents a doubling of power, altho generally 10dB is considered a doubling of apparent volume (some say 6dB). If listening at -25dB on a calibrated avr, that represents an average volume of 60dB with allowance for 20dB peaks (or 80dB). Don't think the amp is a particular problem here....but sometimes ya gotta scratch that itch on the other hand

 

[Pogre]

100 to 50 dB isn't "half". dB is logarithmic, not linear. Every 3dB spl represents a doubling of power, altho generally 10dB is considered a doubling of apparent volume (some say 6dB). If listening at -25dB on a calibrated avr, that represents an average volume of 60dB with allowance for 20dB peaks (or 80dB). Don't think the amp is a particular problem here....but sometimes ya gotta scratch that itch on the other hand

Right, the logarithmic way dB works. I wasn't thinking when I typed that, but my point still stands. He listens at levels faaaar below 102 dB and I don't think amp is the problem either.

 

[Bin]

I have a pair of HSU VTF -3 MK5s in a very large room.

When it comes to bass and subwoofers how close or far you sit isn't as important as the space you're filling. The L part of your room should be measured and accounted for because a sub will "see" the entire space. Bass flows out in all directions and your goal is to pressurize all of the space that's open to your room.

If you have the means I really like the PB4000 subwoofer. I believe a couple of those would more than do it. You might get away with a pair PB3000s also. If you contact SVS and let them know how much space you have (all of it, including the L part) they can help you find the right fit. I don't know if HSU is available to you, but I went with them because their prices are a little more friendly. SVS make some very nice looking subwoofers that are very good performers as well, but you're paying a little more for looks and return policies with them. If I had more money I'd have a pair of their PB16 Ultras right now.

What do u think about the Monolith 15? The price is friendly too compare to those SVS.
PB3000 cost around $1.4K with13in driver, PB4000 cost around $1.8K with 13.5in driver, whereas the Monolith cost around $1.3K with 15in drivers.............i read reviews that the Monolith performs really well and easily compete against PB4000 or even the Ultra PB16.

Thinking from a price/performance standpoint

 

[lovinthehd]

What do u think about the Monolith 15? The price is friendly too compare to those SVS.
PB3000 cost around $1.4K with13in driver, PB4000 cost around $1.8K with 13.5in driver, whereas the Monolith cost around $1.3K with 15in drivers.............i read reviews that the Monolith performs really well and easily compete against PB4000 or even the Ultra PB16.

Thinking from a price/performance standpoint

Also check out the Hsu 15" models, the VTF-3 mk5 and the VTF-15H.