Bass still perform at a level below my expectation

[Bin]

Hi Guys, hope everyone is fine

I recently added a 2nd sub SVS PB1000. My living room has limited space to move (around 600sq high ceiling), therefore I have place my subs left and right of the TV counter.

I ran room correction using Yamaha TSR7810 and paired then with 4 SVS satellite speakers as L,R, SURROUND, and prime center.

I set both sub volume nob to around 2 o'clock, room correction produced a negative 4.5db. I manually turned up the AV to 1db.
After playing a few samples movies, I still feel that the room is NOT VIBRATING enough to they level I like.

May I know what can I do differently to improve the bass impact?

BTW...I will also be adding Polk 707 and 706c next week.....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So the room is like 30x20 with high ceilings? Pb1000’s aren’t really super high output capable in the first place, but in a room that size they have no chance to shake the room, and even more so if you’re on concrete. The best chance you have with them might be a near field placement. Or upgrade. Sorry, it’s just the nature of subwoofers. They see the whole space and have to pressurize that, where speakers mostly deal with line of sight and have consistent DB drop off in a straight line towards the LP. Subs are not quite as predictable, but you can definitely calculate for the room size.
In that size space, I would look at a pair of 15’s minimum.

 

[lovinthehd]

It could also relate to setup, you might not have setup both well as far as positions go (subs work best where they work best, not necessarily a symmetrical positioning on the front wall. The avr can't really do much about poor sub placement. That is a big room, you might want to read this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size. Also this one on multiple sub setup https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/multiple-subwoofer-setup-calibration-1/multiple-subwoofer-setup. You realize a second sub may add 2-6 dB at particular frequencies depending on positioning, but basically doesn't change the extension (the lowest it goes)?

 

[Ed Mullen]

What is your source for movies? Are you streaming or using a Blu-ray player? If you are streaming, have you confirmed the source is bitstreaming DD 5.1?

When you move around the room, are there locations in the room where the bass is much stronger compared to the MLP?

 

[highfigh]

Hi Guys, hope everyone is fine

I recently added a 2nd sub SVS PB1000. My living room has limited space to move (around 600sq high ceiling), therefore I have place my subs left and right of the TV counter.

I ran room correction using Yamaha TSR7810 and paired then with 4 SVS satellite speakers as L,R, SURROUND, and prime center.

I set both sub volume nob to around 2 o'clock, room correction produced a negative 4.5db. I manually turned up the AV to 1db.
After playing a few samples movies, I still feel that the room is NOT VIBRATING enough to they level I like.

May I know what can I do differently to improve the bass impact?

BTW...I will also be adding Polk 707 and 706c next week.....

The area of the floor isn't important- it's the proportions that matter. What are the room's dimensions, where are the speakers and subs located and where do you sit?

 

[KEW]

What is your source for movies? Are you streaming or using a Blu-ray player? If you are streaming, have you confirmed the source is bitstreaming DD 5.1?

When you move around the room, are there locations in the room where the bass is much stronger compared to the MLP?

Hey Ed, always good to have you drop in!

 

[j_garcia]

It may also be your seating position relative to the subs. As with what Ed is asking, would you happen to be sitting near the wall also?

The PB1000 is on the smaller side, so it doesn't quite move as much air so you may not feel as much low vibration. I have a single SB4000 in a ~25x30 room with 20` cathedral ceilings and it absolutely vibrates the whole room. I sit near the center of the room though. Two PB1000s will be louder, but won't necessarily give you that same feel IMO, but it really just sounds like you might need to step up to a larger sub than the 1000.

 

[snakeeyes]

Not sure but I think SVS may do a trade up option from PB1000 to PB2000 to save money making that transition. Not sure if that is only available near the time of purchase or a certain number of months after purchase etc.

 

[j_garcia]

Not sure but I think SVS may do a trade up option from PB1000 to PB2000 to save money making that transition. Not sure if that is only available near the time of purchase or a certain number of months after purchase etc.

I think that is available for quite a long period, possibly up to a year.

 

[Pogre]

What is your source for movies? Are you streaming or using a Blu-ray player? If you are streaming, have you confirmed the source is bitstreaming DD 5.1?

When you move around the room, are there locations in the room where the bass is much stronger compared to the MLP?

I just want to say, I love your Ultra speakers. I have 5 of them and am very happy with their performance!

 

[TLS Guy]

We have had quite a few of similar posts of late and over time.

If I had to put my finger on a single event that has downgraded the fidelity of music reproduction in the last 20 years, it is the misuse of subs and a severe persuasive misunderstanding of how subs should be used.

Subs generally cover the last two octaves. That is 20 to 80 Hz. That is one of the least significant frequency bands in the whole musical spectrum. Yet it has become fashionable to devote the a very large proportion of the budget to it, to the almost total neglect of far more significant parts of the spectrum to which resources should be devoted.

Lets debunk this myth right now that speakers with single 4 to 4.5 inch drivers plus a bunch of subs can lead to anything like realistic reproduction. That is absolute bunk.
Can it lead to very satisfying reproduction properly implemented, yes. However using said speakers with one or more powerful subs turned up too high in an attempt to shake the floor is not realistic or satisfying reproduction. In short it is awful reproduction and very low Fi.

I have returned again and again, and especially of late, to the power band response of music, and where resources need to be primarily devoted.

I have shown this chart often. It shows the fundamentals and overtones of musical instruments. Now bear in mind reproduction of the fundamentals requires far more power than the overtones.

Here it is once more.

Now here is a real world screen shot from my audio workstation. The lower right graph shows the power response of musical program, but is pretty typical of how things sit most of the time.

Now lets bust another myth, that midrange starts at around 100 Hz.

The transition from bass to midrange is somewhere between 400 and 500 Hz. Anything from 20 to 400 Hz is most definitely bass!

Now if you look at the pictures I posted the area that requires the greatest attention in power band response is 120 to 350 Hz. It is most definitely NOT 20 to 80 Hz.

So the key to powerful and realistic bass is a good power band response from 20 to 400 Hz at least. In fact there is considerable power required right out to at least 2.5 KHz. The demands of baffle step compensation for most modern speakers though really requires the largest slice of the power from around 80 to 500 Hz.
Lack of power band response in this critical range can not be compensated for with unbalanced power below 80 Hz. This is what I find has become prevalent. But it is bad and unfaithful reproduction.

I have been hammering of late as to why specs and published measurements can lead you astray. This crucial data is hardly ever available for most speakers.

Yes, the +/- 3db response is important and so is dispersion and things like impulse response. However what is lacking is power acoustic output versus frequency.

So you can get nice graphs and not state output. Now all moving coil drivers that I know will have some degree of decline in maximal output with frequency. And this is something I always keep to the forefront. So if a driver will produce 110 db 1 watt 1 meter at 600 Hz but only 60 db at 120 Hz, it is not the driver you think it is.

Unfortunately the ability to maintain higher outputs with declining frequency has a strong tendency to be proportional to the cost of the driver. That is an unfortunate fact of life in my experience.

The bottom line is that if you want powerful realistic bass you need to devote far more monetary resources to what happens above 100 Hz than below it.

So get those speakers sorted before even thinking about a sub.

 

[shadyJ]

We have had quite a few of similar posts of late and over time.

If I had to put my finger on a single event that has downgraded the fidelity of music reproduction in the last 20 years, it is the misuse of subs and a severe persuasive misunderstanding of how subs should be used.

Subs generally cover the last two octaves. That is 20 to 80 Hz. That is one of the least significant frequency bands in the whole musical spectrum. Yet it has become fashionable to devote the a very large proportion of the budget to it, to the almost total neglect of far more significant parts of the spectrum to which resources should be devoted.

Lets debunk this myth right now that speakers with single 4 to 4.5 inch drivers plus a bunch of subs can lead to anything like realistic reproduction. That is absolute bunk.
Can it lead to very satisfying reproduction properly implemented, yes. However using said speakers with one or more powerful subs turned up too high in an attempt to shake the floor is not realistic or satisfying reproduction. In short it is awful reproduction and very low Fi.

I have returned again and again, and especially of late, to the power band response of music, and where resources need to be primarily devoted.

I have shown this chart often. It shows the fundamentals and overtones of musical instruments. Now bear in mind reproduction of the fundamentals requires far more power than the overtones.

Here it is once more.

Now here is a real world screen shot from my audio workstation. The lower right graph shows the power response of musical program, but is pretty typical of how things sit most of the time.

Now lets bust another myth, that midrange starts at around 100 Hz.

The transition from bass to midrange is somewhere between 400 and 500 Hz. Anything from 20 to 400 Hz is most definitely bass!

Now if you look at the pictures I posted the area that requires the greatest attention in power band response is 120 to 350 Hz. It is most definitely NOT 20 to 80 Hz.

So the key to powerful and realistic bass is a good power band response from 20 to 400 Hz at least. In fact there is considerable power required right out to at least 2.5 KHz. The demands of baffle step compensation for most modern speakers though really requires the largest slice of the power from around 80 to 500 Hz.
Lack of power band response in this critical range can not be compensated for with unbalanced power below 80 Hz. This is what I find has become prevalent. But it is bad and unfaithful reproduction.

I have been hammering of late as to why specs and published measurements can lead you astray. This crucial data is hardly ever available for most speakers.

Yes, the +/- 3db response is important and so is dispersion and things like impulse response. However what is lacking is power acoustic output versus frequency.

So you can get nice graphs and not state output. Now all moving coil drivers that I know will have some degree of decline in maximal output with frequency. And this is something I always keep to the forefront. So if a driver will produce 110 db 1 watt 1 meter at 600 Hz but only 60 db at 120 Hz, it is not the driver you think it is.

Unfortunately the ability to maintain higher outputs with declining frequency has a strong tendency to be proportional to the cost of the driver. That is an unfortunate fact of life in my experience.

The bottom line is that if you want powerful realistic bass you need to devote far more monetary resources to what happens above 100 Hz than below it.

So get those speakers sorted before even thinking about a sub.

For many acoustic recordings, I agree, not much below 80 Hz. There are some, but you have to look for them. For stuff like studio recordings, like pop music, and also film, there is lots of energy below 80 Hz. It depends on what your tastes are. For people who like older recordings or acoustic recordings, yes, I wouldn't worry about the sub too much.

One more thing, I don't quite agree that the sub is where most sound systems falters. I think the chief offender is the idea that you can get a full sound out of satellite speakers that use 3" drivers. Of course, many systems composed of such speakers use a sub, often a bad one, but the biggest problem is that the users are not willing to tolerate full sized speakers. Life style speakers, blue tooth speakers, desktop speakers, so many really bad small speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

For many acoustic recordings, I agree, not much below 80 Hz. There are some, but you have to look for them. For stuff like studio recordings, like pop music, and also film, there is lots of energy below 80 Hz. It depends on what your tastes are. For people who like older recordings or acoustic recordings, yes, I wouldn't worry about the sub too much.

One more thing, I don't quite agree that the sub is where most sound systems falters. I think the chief offender is the idea that you can get a full sound out of satellite speakers that use 3" drivers. Of course, many systems composed of such speakers use a sub, often a bad one, but the biggest problem is that the users are not willing to tolerate full sized speakers. Life style speakers, blue tooth speakers, desktop speakers, so many really bad small speakers.

The issue still remains that the sound has to be balanced. Even for electronic music by far most of the power demands are outside sub range by far.

It all comes down to balance. As much as I dislike Audyssey auto Eq, it does a very good job of leveling speakers. Turning up subs beyond Audyssey settings is likely to result in poor unbalanced sound.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The issue still remains that the sound has to be balanced. Even for electronic music by far most of the power demands are outside sub range by far.

It all comes down to balance. As much as I dislike Audyssey auto Eq, it does a very good job of leveling speakers. Turning up subs beyond Audyssey settings is likely to result in poor unbalanced sound.

While I agree with you that balance is important, I've never experienced an HT system in someone else's home - or even at a dealer for that matter - where the subs weren't adjusted way too high for proper balance. It's been over a year since I've measured anyone else's system and recommended adjustments because it just strikes me as a lost cause. IMO, you are, as the saying goes, spitting in the wind.

 

[TLS Guy]

While I agree with you that balance is important, I've never experienced an HT system in someone else's home - or even at a dealer for that matter - where the subs weren't adjusted way too high for proper balance. It's been over a year since I've measured anyone else's system and recommended adjustments because it just strikes me as a lost cause. IMO, you are, as the saying does, spitting in the wind.

Sadly I suspect you are correct.

However people would enjoy their systems far more if more of their budget went into the left and right main speakers ad less on the sub.

 

[Bin]

Thank you everyone for responding.
To be completely honest, i am new to HT set up hence i started with SVS satellite with a 5.1 system a year ago and gradually invest to upgrade the system.

Just 2 days ago, my newly purchased main speakers arrived, the Polk LSIM 707 and 706C.
So now i changed up my entire system to be only 3.2 :

Living Room size : approx 22ft L X 11ft W (with high ceiling)​

AVR : Yamaha TSR 7810 (95WPC X 2)​

Main LR : Polk LSIM 707​

Main C : Polk LSIM 707C​

Subs : Dual PB1000​

Usual AVR volume played : between -35 to -28​

Here's what i notice so far after 2 days of trial on the new system.

1. I ran YPAO room correction, and adjusted all my 3 speakers to be Small.
   Towers : xo at 60hz (tried 80hz, didn't like it as it didn't go deep enough
   Centre : xo at 80hz (i like dialogue than bass here)
2. I can hear more depth, clarity and tightness from these new speakers which is great comparing to my previous satellite speakers. I can also hear some of the sound that i wasn't able to get from satellite speakers.
3. From a volume standpoint, i didn't feel like it's much louder than the satellite. I test listen to the same level of loudness (eg -36 on AVR), the loudness are almost the same if i compare Polk to SVS satellite, except Polk gave me a little more detail. I guess this has to do with how YPAO adjusted and level everything up to the room acoustic.
4. From a bass standpoint, after adjusted the tower to xo at 60hz. It sounded better now.
   But the subs hardly come on now, unless the source of the movie/song go deeper then it will turn on. There was a clip played on my TV yesterday, and that turned on the bass from tower as well as the subs and it shook the floor (sweet)..........but like i mentioned earlier, i CANNOT feel that subs that often anymore maybe because of majority of the bass load was taken over by the towers.

Now i am exploring adding a power amp so that these Polk speakers can have a little more dynamics and headroom to work with since they can take up to 250hz to 300hz load, my current AVR isn't powerful enough to give them that.
If after adding the power amp, and i don't feel any difference then i am going to just return the amp .
If i do feel the difference, then i will add back two of m satellite speakers as surround to make the system back to 5.2.

Power amp that i am exploring now is Monoprice Monolith 200WPC X 3.
I was looking at Emotiva XPA3 Gen3, however it's dimension is way too deep to put into my cabinet.
I looked at Outlaw Model2200 too, however i don't have enough power outlet to plug in 3 of them.

Any further expert feedback/advice you guys can provide will be super helpful.
THANK YOU.

 

[Pogre]

I'm trying to put a reply together here and a half dozen things are flying through my head at once, lol. Okay, having less bass with a higher crossover doesn't compute for me, unless your subs are trimmed or adjusted too low or underpowered for your room. An SVS sub will play bass frequencies far better than almost any tower speaker.

AIso, a higher crossover should give you more mid bass punch and better dynamics from your speakers and receiver or amp. Since they no longer have to handle the lower frequencies this frees them up to play with better clarity and less power, this also allows for better dynamics. Also, I think a higher crossover will trigger your subs to turn on at lower volumes.

Those are all good amplifiers, but they won't do anything to improve your sound quality unless you're pushing your current amp/receiver into clipping at very high volumes. I think you have a subwoofer placement or setup problem. How big is the space you're filling with sound? The PB1000 is a nice sub for what it is, but even a pair of them will struggle in large-ish volume rooms.

The reason you don't notice a difference in volume with your new speakers after running setup is because YPAO adjusts them to volume based on the distance from speakers to your listening/measurement position. The goal is 85 dB (reference) at your seating position with 20 dB of headroom for dynamic spikes (105 dB). So when you're listening at -35 you should be hearing roughly 50 dB.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Spl meter.....

 

[Pogre]

Spl meter.....

I just hunted up the link for the good ol' SPL Calculator we love so much around here!

@Bin if you punch in your speaker info (senstivity) and distance from them this SPL Calculator it will give you a pretty good idea of your power requirements. Make sure you put 2 speakers and tick the box if they're close to a wall or in a corner and it'll calculate wattage needed to reach the proper sound level at your seat.

I've used it a hundred times but I still like playing around with it.

*Edit: as an example, I'm 14' from my speakers and need about 2 watts to hit 85 dB where I sit.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I just hunted up the link for the good ol' SPL Calculator we love so much around here!

@Bin if you punch in your speaker info (senstivity) and distance from them this SPL Calculator it will give you a pretty good idea of your power requirements. Make sure you put 2 speakers and tick the box if they're close to a wall or in a corner and it'll calculate wattage needed to reach the proper sound level at your seat.

I've used it a hundred times but I still like playing around with it.

It’s definitely fun.

My spl meter point was that ypao is different and I think besides being to small, they’re set too low. I simple dB check will verify that!