Rookie here...

[William Lemmerhirt]

Compare ALL of the relevant specs and test data... output, gain, distortion, linearity, frequency response, noise.

Let your comparison lead you to the best solution.



LOL. I liked that, William.

Not saying anyone is lying here, but it's important for people to do their own thinking and make their own decisions...

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth

Good link. I’ve actually seen it before and there is truth in it.

I agree with your words about making their own decision. I usually try to give practical advice and let whoever I’m giving that to make their own choice. That way, they can build confidence in what they’re doing, learn something along the way, and I’M not on the hook if they don’t like! lol. Jk.

That gif(from my favorite Kong by Peter Jackson) was inspired by ADTG’s last line. Pride of ownership(even if it’s blind) and satisfaction comes in many forms.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It is a foreign language, so it will take time. Perhaps months before sinking in. You have a lot of years of listening pleasure ahead of you. Take your time... it will come.

This...

 

[Zedturbo]

Your doin fine. Not sure how long you’ve been doing this but some of us are decades in. Lol. Take your time, enjoy the ride. Doing fine...

Thank you! I have been in two car audio for decades now and have class D amps in there knowing they are the best for bass but as far as home theater, I've always had a surround sound system but never really concentrated on higher quality then just an over the counter thousand dollar Yamaha AVR knowing that Yamaha has been in the sound game for as long as I can remember but now that I have a nicer 4K TV, I'm thinking of putting a little pep in my step and since I have to upgrade the AVR with a unit that has 4K pass-through, the wheels started turning on getting a nicer system but that won't break the bank. I don't have endless amounts of funds to put into this little side project and I realized spending couldn't get out of control real quick! Just trying to buy the best I can reasonably afford and if that calls for me saving up a little more money to buy separates if it's that huge of a difference, then I will but if I can get by being an average user with high-end taste, maybe I can get somebody's and put on a really nice AVR and call it a day. Everybody on these forms have been so cool and I haven't ran into anybody with attitudes saying stuff like "do your own research". I can read until I'm blue in the face about all the information here but if I'm not clearly understanding everything I'm reading, again, it's like trying to read a foreign language so by asking people for their input on specific things, I can start picking up in learning what makes a difference in what doesn't make a difference.

 

[JerryLove]

Thank you! I have been in two car audio for decades now and have class D amps in there knowing they are the best for bass

Frequencies go way past audio range. Amplifiers are about electrical signals, not just audio-range electrical signals. Ever hear of a Class C amp? No? Because it's a high-frequency amp used for radio.

I bring this up because Class D is a low-frequency amp. But what is "low"? Well, that depends on the speed of the switching mechanism in the Class D. The faster that is, the higher the frequency class D can put out correctly.

If you wonder whether switches have been getting faster over the years: I'll tell you they are a limiting factor in network speeds as well.. how has your phone/internet data speed progressed over the last decade or three?

but as far as home theater, I've always had a surround sound system but never really concentrated on higher quality then just an over the counter thousand dollar Yamaha AVR

The quality on an Yamaha AVR is excellent. The limitation is usually around maximum current/power.

if that calls for me saving up a little more money to buy separates if it's that huge of a difference, then I will but if I can get by being an average user with high-end taste, maybe I can get somebody's and put on a really nice AVR and call it a day.

Get an AVR with pre-amp outs. I just picked up a new Onkyo 11.2 with pre-outs for <$500.

Your sub, the biggest consumer of power, is likely already running on its own amp. If you really want, you can externally amp your LCR both giving them more juice and reducing the overall load on your AVR for powering the other speakers.

 

[GrimSurfer]

If you wonder whether switches have been getting faster over the years: I'll tell you they are a limiting factor in network speeds as well.. how has your phone/internet data speed progressed over the last decade or three?.

When you talk phones and networks, you're talking digital data. When you're talking audio amplification, you're talking analog. BIG difference.

You can pump audible noise into a digital data circuit without it impacting data flow. You can even have multiple streams of digital data passing through the same connection. You can't do that with analog in the audible range.

 

[JerryLove]

When you talk phones and networks, you're talking digital data. When you're talking audio amplification, you're talking analog. BIG difference.

Actually no. I'm discussing electrical switches.

The limiting factor on HF reproduction in a class D amp is the speed of the MOSFET.

MOSFETs are also used in call routing and networking (https://www.diodes.com/assets/App-Note-Files/dn60.pdf) for basically the same purpose.

It seems you may not understand the basics of how PWM is used to create signals.

You can pump audible noise into a digital data circuit without it impacting data flow. You can even have multiple streams of digital data passing through the same connection. You can't do that with analog in the audible range.

I'm not sure that this paragraph is actually coherent. Can you describe this mathematically or with a circuit diagram? If not, can you please rephrase. I feel like you are starting with a number of false assumptions (see above) and proceeding forward from there.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Actually no. I'm discussing electrical switches.

Yeah, I get that. Switching noise is a huge issue in analog. Not so much in digital, which is more concerned with latency.

With digital, data is sent in packets. Errors are detected and corrected... or resent. Noise, randomized signals, are rejected because they don't follow protocols and aren't recognized as part of the data stream.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_detection_and_correction

Analog audio signals don't operate this way. Other than clipping, a circuit has no way of telling whether noise is part of the signal or not. Filtering can be applied, but that operates on a frequency or range of frequencies... blocking it or letting it pass. But it cannot distinguish between noise (such as static... white noise, or pink noise) and signal. Because in audio, it's all about gain.

If it were otherwise, a noisy rheostat/volume control would add crackle to the output. It would be filtered out. But it's not.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_(electronics)

 

[JerryLove]

Yeah, I get that. Switching noise is a huge issue in analog. Not so much in digital, which is more concerned with latency.

With digital, data is sent in packets. Errors are detected and corrected... or resent. Noise, randomized signals, are rejected because they don't follow protocols and aren't recognized as part of the data stream.

We aren't talking about errors. We are talking about MOSFET speed and transmission rate. Do you really just not understand? Do you not understand why the speed a MOSFET can switch (number of times it can turn on/off), and the speed at which it switches (time it takes to go from one state to the other), is important to telecommunication, data transmission, and Class D amplifiers? Because if not, please ask questions rather than asserting; and if so: what are you doing!?!

Analog audio signals don't operate this way. Other than clipping, a circuit has no way of telling whether noise is part of the signal or not. Filtering can be applied, but that operates on a frequency or range of frequencies... blocking it or letting it pass. But it cannot distinguish between noise (such as static... white noise, or pink noise) and signal. Because in audio, it's all about gain.

Please stop. Your responses indicate that you have no idea how PWM works in a Class D amplifier. You don't seem to be *trying* to understand either. Maybe I should go Socratic? How do you think a class D amp creates a waveform?

Don't just link or quote the answer... I already know that. I need to you to understand that you don't (or offer me some insight into how we are talking past one another).

 

[JerryLove]

While I'm at Socratic: let me add another question I know the answer to.

What factor determines the maximum frequency of sinewave that a given classD amplifier can produce?

 

[lovinthehd]

How much faith should one place on manufacturer reliability claims when the average AVR gets swapped out every few years because the supporting tech changes so often? (USB 1, 2, wifi, bt, dsd, 1080, 4K, 8k, 5.x, 7.x, 9.x 11.x)

That just depends where your system(s) are. I'm still without 4k and Atmos so my various avrs dating back to 2011/2012 range do quite nicely. Who would bother with changing an avr for usb?

 

[GrimSurfer]

That just depends where your system(s) are. I'm still without 4k and Atmos so my various avrs dating back to 2011/2012 range do quite nicely. Who would bother with changing an avr for usb?

If it meets the requirement, there's no need to replace it!

I've got 4K but spend more time on my surfboard than watching TV. Atmos? Nope.

 

[lovinthehd]

If it meets the requirement, there's no need to replace it!

I've got 4K but spend more time on my surfboard than watching TV. Atmos? Nope.

Went today to where many "surfers" sit and yak in a calm bay...musta been at least a hundred out there today (Linda Mar beach in Pacifica). I was there as that's where my first mountain bike ride was, visiting the area and out of shape so that worked today!

 

[GrimSurfer]

Went today to where many "surfers" sit and yak in a calm bay...musta been at least a hundred out there today (Linda Mar beach in Pacifica). I was there as that's where my first mountain bike ride was, visiting the area and out of shape so that worked today!

Excellent!

Surfing has ruined my life. I can't watch a movie without passing judgment whether the waves on the beach are "surfable".

Rare days when something isn't firing on the Cali coast. I'm on the Atlantic side so have to satisfy myself with 300 days of ripples and hurricane season.

 

[lovinthehd]

Excellent!

Surfing has ruined my life. I can't watch a movie without passing judgment whether the waves on the beach are "surfable".

Rare days when something isn't firing on the Cali coast. I'm on the Atlantic side so have to satisfy myself with 300 days of ripples and hurricane season.

While only a body/body board surfer, used to go to school and hang out with some of those guys who became famous as the Dog Town Z-boys....was somewhat close to Mavericks but didn't ride down there to see if there was any action altho went down near there a couple days ago to buy some fresh Dungeness crabs.