Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
14
#1
Hello all,
New to higher-end home theater and it's time for me to move into the world of 4k and higher quality audio (within a reasonable budget),that is. My current setup is a Yamaha Rx-v1800 a/v receiver and Klipsch RF-82 front towers, RC-62 center, RS52 rear, and RSW-10. Just bought a Sony 75" 900F as well. The bottom line is I'm tossing around the idea of using separates instead of all-in-one receiver. Looking at either Marantz MM8077 7-ch 150 watts or ATI AT525NC 5-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel). I seem to like the Marantz AV7705 as a processor from the research I've already done. Any thoughts on these amps combined with the processor? I'm reading that audio quality is better with separates for many reasons but wasn't opposed to a really good A/V receiver either like a buddy of mine recommends. Thanks everyone!!!
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
14
#3
Yamaha A3080 would fit nicely or a Marantz flagship? Going all separate will run a lot of coin.
I was actually looking at the Yamaha 3080 as well but what kills me is the stated ratings 4 watts per channel until you actually run 5 or 7 channels and the power almost to literally gets cut in half from the initial rating. Seems like it only pushes that much power in stereo. I figured with the separate ATI amp, I will get the true rated power that I'm actually paying for and getting more bang for my buck. Just sucks to pay for wattage that you truly aren't getting.
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
14
#5
Both AVR's have pre-amp outs so adding more power wouldn't be an issue.
That is very true. I've heard nothing but good things about the Marantz AV7705 as a processor so maybe I need to do some more research on it and see what the benefits would be if I get that unit instead of on AVR and adding another amplifier.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
5,058 18 47
#6
Don't worry so much about the amplification/electronics....get better speakers (and particularly that sub) if you want to improve sound quality. The speakers have decent sensitivity specs and get loud fairly easily with modest amplification. Separates do not magically bring better sound quality. If you're not sure what your amplification needs are at the distance you are from the speakers for the spl desired, maybe try using an spl calculator to get a better idea of your needs. While the pre-pro/separate amp is a nice way to go, that would exceed the value of your speakers and it should be the other way around....your speakers should be the most significant expenditure for sq.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
7,394 19 6
#8
sucks to pay for wattage that you truly aren't getting.
You are getting those wattage.

As other experienced people will say, don’t get caught up in the ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN (ACD) myth.

In real life, you will not see all channels driven. You will most likely see 2 Ch driven simultaneously, not 5, 7, or 9 CH driven simultaneously.

ACD-test is a torture test for amps, but it's not what we see in real life situations (home theater).

For example my Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp powers my 9 RBH Atmos speakers great in my 22’x26’x14’ HT room (listening distance 18’). However, if you test All Channels Driven, the amp will go in PROTECTION because Yamaha loves to be overprotective. That’s what it comes down to.

But if you want an amp that can do 200W x 7 Ch driven, the ATI amps will do, not the Marantz, which is just another AVR-amp.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
7,394 19 6
#9
The bottom line is I'm tossing around the idea of using separates instead of all-in-one receiver.
As others have mentioned, are you also going to upgrade your speakers?

It's usually a good idea to spend more money on speakers/subs than electronics.

What is your total budget?
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#10
As other experienced people will say, don’t get caught up in the ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN (ACD) myth.

In real life, you will not see all channels driven. You will most likely see 2 Ch driven simultaneously, not 5, 7, or 9 CH driven simultaneously.
You may not see all channels driven to the same level, but they are most certainly driven when the source material is multichannel.

If experience has anything to do with it, I would say one must keep an eye on ACD. First, because manufacturers use pretty loose standards to rate many of their products. Second, because a week doesn't go by around this forum without somebody saying that their AVR can't handle their speaker load.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
7,394 19 6
#11
a week doesn't go by without somebody saying that their AVR can't handle their speaker load.
And the reason is usually because they have to turn the master volume knob higher than they want, which is not the correct reason for blaming the AVR for lacking power. Just increase the trim levels and they no longer need to turn up the master volume knob. It's like magic.

Or the reason is because they just don't "feel" like their speakers are playing to their "true potential".

AVRs outsell separates 10-to-1 according to M Code. Millions of people have no problem powering their multiple speakers with AVRs. And most people have rooms no larger than 18 x 20.

Now if most people have rooms that are 20' x 30' and they sit 20' away, that would be whole different story.
 
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GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#12
And the reason is usually because they have to turn the master volume knob higher than they want, which is not the correct reason for blaming the AVR for lacking power.

Or the reason is because they just don't "feel" like their speakers are playing to their "true potential".
"Higher than they want"? Is this an issue of demonic possession? Have they lost the ability to choose the playback level that they actually want? :p

All joking aside... when you apply that stated wattage against efficiency, then these amps should be able to deafen people without clipping. But they don't.

I can't comment on feelings other than to say that the people whose posts I've read haven't commented on things like "true potential". Most talk about clipping, crackling, insufficient volume etc. All these things strongly point to basic amplification shortfalls more than ludicrous speaker impedance or unrealistic volume levels.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
7,394 19 6
#13
Most talk about clipping, crackling, insufficient volume etc. All these things strongly point to basic amplification shortfalls
I've been on this forum for a long time. I do not see MOST AVR users on this forum having clipping issues.

A few have mentioned Crackling (on Center Channel),which could very well be their speakers. Can't blame that solely on AVR.

Insufficient volume means that have to turn that master volume knob up. NOT an indication of lacking power. Again, all they have to do is increase the trim levels (speaker channel levels) and they will never have to set the master volume more than -20.0. Then it's like magic and everything sounds great. I've seen it too many times.

Anyway, there are too many threads already on AVR vs. Separates. So I will leave this alone.

Sure, nothing wrong with owning separates vs AVR. I have always used separates for my main HT system.

But like others have said, it seems a bit funny to own $5,000+ separates electronics (the 5Ch ATI amp retails $3300 alone) and speaker system that costs less than $2,000. Still nothing WRONG, but just not the usual recommendation.

Now if the speaker system were $5,000 - $10,000, then I say hells yes let's get some separates, bro! Although it's absolutely okay to use a Yamaha RX-A3080 for a $10,000 speaker system too. :D

If going separates, he could probably get a new Adcom 200x5Ch amp for around $1500. Monoprice 200x5 amp also.
 
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GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#14
I've been on this forum for a long time. I do not see MOST AVR users on this forum having clipping issues.

A few have mentioned Crackling (on Center Channel),which could very well be their speakers. Can't blame that solely on AVR.

Insufficient volume means that have to turn that master volume knob up. NOT an indication of lacking power. Again, all they have to do is increase the trim levels (speaker channel levels) and they will never have to set the master volume more than -20.0. Then it's like magic and everything sounds great. I've seen it too many times.

Anyway, there are too many threads already on AVR vs. Separates. So I will leave this alone.

Sure, nothing wrong with owning separates vs AVR. I have always used separates for my main HT system.
Context... as in most people who report problems. As in my previous post "... a week doesn't go by on this forum without somebody...".

I let's not get into the 10-1 sales issue. That reflects sales figures, not performance, for the masses. If this forum proves anything, it's that the masses don't really know what they want or what they're getting.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#15
And many people don't really know that their speakers need more power either when they report "problems". Many people don't really know. Period.
Need more power? Even a marginally performing loudspeaker can deliver 84 dB/W/m, so how can an amp or AVR claiming to deliver 100 wpc not be capable of deafening the listener in a medium sized room without clipping?

The answer to this is that many products cannot even come close to such power levels in multichannel without clipping.
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
14
#16
Don't worry so much about the amplification/electronics....get better speakers (and particularly that sub) if you want to improve sound quality. The speakers have decent sensitivity specs and get loud fairly easily with modest amplification. Separates do not magically bring better sound quality. If you're not sure what your amplification needs are at the distance you are from the speakers for the spl desired, maybe try using an spl calculator to get a better idea of your needs. While the pre-pro/separate amp is a nice way to go, that would exceed the value of your speakers and it should be the other way around....your speakers should be the most significant expenditure for sq.
You are def right. The electronics, at that point, will exceed the value of my speakers due to the fact that mine were purchased quite a while ago being the first series. Are you referring to potentially upgrading to the most recent Klipsch Reference III or an entirely different brand? I wasn't really trying to upgrade the entire system but more so just moving into the 4k world with some added perks. Hence the separates with existing speakers.
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Junior Audioholic
Ratings
14
#17
As others have mentioned, are you also going to upgrade your speakers?

It's usually a good idea to spend more money on speakers/subs than electronics.

What is your total budget?
Well .... That's the thing. I was in no way shape or form ready to overhaul the entire home theater system. I was just the leaning towards upgrading my home receiver at first to just have multiple 4K pass-through ports and at the same time maybe upgrade 2 higher power just because. then I started reading about separates being the way to go so no, to answer your question, I wasn't really setting a budget for new speakers as well.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Ratings
629 1
#18
Need more power? Even a marginally performing loudspeaker can deliver 84 dB/W/m, so how can an amp or AVR claiming to deliver 100 wpc not be capable of deafening the listener in a medium sized room without clipping?

The answer to this is that many products cannot even come close to such power levels in multichannel without clipping.
Need more power? Even a marginally performing loudspeaker can deliver 84 dB/W/m, so how can an amp or AVR claiming to deliver 100 wpc not be capable of deafening the listener in a medium sized room without clipping?

The answer to this is that many products cannot even come close to such power levels in multichannel without clipping.
IMHO...
The question of having enough power output capability is largely driven by the type of loudspeaker system.... 81% of the home theater systems today are using subwoofer/satellite systems vs. home theater systems using full-range loud speakers.. Driving the full-range loudspeakers takes significantly more power output than the subwoofer/satellite systems. As now for the full-range loudspeakers the AVRs' amplifiers must go down 2-3 octaves lower whereas the subwoofer/satellite system the subwoofer does the heavy low frequency lifting...
And there are other variables that can impact the listening situation for including:
  • Budget
  • Room size
  • Loudspeaker specs for sensitivity/impedance
  • Source material, compressed or uncompressed
  • Target, acceptable listening volume level

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#19
Well .... That's the thing. I was in no way shape or form ready to overhaul the entire home theater system. I was just the leaning towards upgrading my home receiver at first to just have multiple 4K pass-through ports and at the same time maybe upgrade 2 higher power just because. then I started reading about separates being the way to go so no, to answer your question, I wasn't really setting a budget for new speakers as well.
I don't wish to suggest one path or another. Each has merit.

When you do upgrade make sure that you do so with a view to increasing performance, not necessarily bigger watts, higher cost, or larger size. Examine specs (and understand what they mean and how they re used/abused),read reviews, and audition.

Shop for what you want/need, instead of going into a place (particularly a big box store) and having a salesperson tell you what you want/need. Don't narrow your thinking because that's what Costco, Sam's Club, etc. carries.

You can do this right once, or wrong many times.
 
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L

Leemix

Full Audioholic
Ratings
76
#20
You can do this right once, or wrong many times.
This is a very true statment.


Getting better electronics can make you current speakers shine, not as much as a speaker and electronics upgrade. If thats unaffordable just now, getting some new electronics can be a good idea if you like the sound you already have and want a little sound upgrade in addition to newer features like 4k.
New speakers or subs can come later if you feel you need it. New better speakers on older electronics you are not happy with anymore is not a great option, unless its for a short period.




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