Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#41
No problem. Let's start with your space where you plan to set up your system.

What are it's dimensions (length, width, height) and what is your preferred orientation (front speakers looking down the long length or across the short width)?
I just got home so I'll try and take some decent measurements. I have vaulted ceilings, a large opening behind me and wide open to the right with a hall way so it's just weird.
 

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Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#42
Have you considered two 12 inch subs? Better bass separation and directional. That one big sub can dominate the space.
Yes I have actually. I really like the thought of a couple 12 inch subs over 15 in so I can get some of the lower bass notes. I feel like the 15in might just be too overwhelming overall.
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#43
No problem. Let's start with your space where you plan to set up your system.

What are it's dimensions (length, width, height) and what is your preferred orientation (front speakers looking down the long length or across the short width)?
18' wide, 14' deep, 8' tall ceiling up front and vaulted ceiling to 11' tall in back.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#44
Many thanks for the dimensions... and the photos really help too.

What follows is based on the following assumptions (correct me if anything I write here is incorrect):

1. This is a dual use space (entertainment and relaxation);

2. The primary role of your entertainment system is TV, movies etc., but you sometimes listen to music;

3. You're happy with the general layout of home furnishings but may be willing to make minor adjustments to accommodate speakers etc. provided this doesn't result in silly stuff like putting speakers in the middle of hallways or in front of a fire place.

4. You wish to avoid undue constraints when choosing or upgrading future speakers. So let's base all of our work on four ohm speakers (somewhat difficult to drive) with an actual sensitivity of 85 dB/W/m (slightly worse than average sensitivity).

With these assumptions in place, let's consider some basic measurements:

1. Front speaker distance from front wall: ~1 foot;

2. Front speaker distance to primary viewing/listening area: ~9 feet or 3 meters (Requires moving your sofa ~3 feet from the back wall and adjusting the side chair accordingly. This serves two audio and one functional purpose:

A. Audio: It gives adequate room for the placement of a rear set of speakers, which should be well behind the "3-9" line of the listener. It improves acoustics by moving the listener away from the rear wall (which is likely the main reflection point for the front speakers.)

B. Functional. Creates a pass through between the sofa and the opening to the kitchen.

3. Rear speaker distance to the primary viewing/listening area: ~4 feet or 1.3 meters (making allowance width of the back of the sofa).

With these dimensions in place, let's turn to sound pressure levels. THX reference levels are, IIRC, 85 dB (I'm conscious of the weighting factor but it's unnecessary for calculations). That's as loud a continuous sound pressure as one can listen to for 8 hours without suffering hearing damage. For the purposes of scaring your boxer (nice looking dog, btw),demos, or rocking out in the next room, let's say that you want a system capable of delivering 90 spl (which is much, much louder than 85 dB) at the viewing/listening level.

Turning to Crown Audio's handy calculator...

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators

Plugging in the various values, and assuming 3 dB overhead, you'd need to deliver at least 57W RMS to the front speakers and 11W to the rear speakers to get your 90 dB sound pressure level. This illustrates how little power is actually needed to achieve loud sounds from average speakers.

But wait, there's more...

The values offered by the Crown calculator are very conservative because they don't take into account that the listener will be subjected to (in your case) sound pressure from five speakers. So let's turn add up the dBs from those five speakers using another handy calculator:

https://www.noisemeters.ca/apps/db-calculator/

Adding five 90 dB sources equals 97 dB, which is a massive 12 dB higher than THX reference levels (85 dB) and 7 dB higher than your maximum target sound pressure (90 dB). Plus, the Crown calculator factored in a 3 dB overhead before arriving at its wattage levels. So, with about 3 x 60W and 2 x 30W plus one or two powered subs (which I didn't factor into the spl totals because they only operate from roughly 20-90 Hz or so),you'll be able to listen to the audio track of movies or music at more than adequate levels.

The key to all of this, however, is quality. Those wattages assume that your selected amp is capable of continuous and sustained delivery of 60/30W into four ohm loads without (and I stress without) clipping. But let's be even more conservative by saying that the requirement is for the wattages we calculated to be at 8 ohms... in case you choose a speaker with an 8 ohm nominal impedance.

For ease of set up and consistency, you may wish to select amplifiers that are capable of delivering 60W RMS at your speakers' impedance to all five channels (rear included). The advantage to this is that it allows you to choose between one or five amps from the same manufacturer. This increases the likelihood that all amps will respond with the same linearity as volume increases, making it easier for room correction software etc. to do its job correctly.

The amp you choose could be a five channel one with one or two LFE outputs, an AV controller with LFE outputs plus a three channel amp for the front and two channel amp for the rear) or any logical combination.

I haven't gone into seven channels or higher because, frankly, it would violate some of the assumptions previously listed. Going that route would require speakers on stands at mid points in your room (hallway and fireplace) and/or suspended from your sloping ceiling. I suspect this could create some domestic friction, so let's avoid making this a part of the plan.

Things would be much different in a large rectangular non dual-use space away from main entry doors... but it's important to work with the space you have. Your space isn't ideal but it isn't bad either. The sloping ceiling has some advantages wrt keeping ceiling reflections from affecting the seating area, scattering etc. The windows on the front walll are reflective, but heavy curtains and speaker placement can help resolve this. The downside is that going seven channels or higher may be too much for your space, but this helps you focus on making your five channels "count" in terms of sound quality as opposed to spatial effects.
 
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Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#45
Many thanks for the dimensions... and the photos really help too.

What follows is based on the following assumptions (correct me if anything I write here is incorrect):

1. This is a dual use space (entertainment and relaxation);

2. The primary role of your entertainment system is TV, movies etc., but you sometimes listen to music;

3. You're happy with the general layout of home furnishings but may be willing to make minor adjustments to accommodate speakers etc. provided this doesn't result in silly stuff like putting speakers in the middle of hallways or in front of a fire place.

4. You wish to avoid undue constraints when choosing or upgrading future speakers. So let's base all of our work on four ohm speakers (somewhat difficult to drive) with an actual sensitivity of 85 dB/W/m (slightly worse than average sensitivity).

With these assumptions in place, let's consider some basic measurements:

1. Front speaker distance from front wall: ~1 foot;

2. Front speaker distance to primary viewing/listening area: ~9 feet or 3 meters (Requires moving your sofa ~3 feet from the back wall and adjusting the side chair accordingly. This serves two audio and one functional purpose:

A. Audio: It gives adequate room for the placement of a rear set of speakers, which should be well behind the "3-9" line of the listener. It improves acoustics by moving the listener away from the rear wall (which is likely the main reflection point for the front speakers.)

B. Functional. Creates a pass through between the sofa and the opening to the kitchen.

3. Rear speaker distance to the primary viewing/listening area: ~4 feet or 1.3 meters (making allowance width of the back of the sofa).

With these dimensions in place, let's turn to sound pressure levels. THX reference levels are, IIRC, 85 dB (I'm conscious of the weighting factor but it's unnecessary for calculations). That's as loud a continuous sound pressure as one can listen to for 8 hours without suffering hearing damage. For the purposes of scaring your boxer (nice looking dog, btw),demos, or rocking out in the next room, let's say that you want a system capable of delivering 90 spl (which is much, much louder than 85 dB) at the viewing/listening level.

Turning to Crown Audio's handy calculator...

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators

Plugging in the various values, and assuming 3 dB overhead, you'd need to deliver at least 57W RMS to the front speakers and 11W to the rear speakers to get your 90 dB sound pressure level. This illustrates how little power is actually needed to achieve loud sounds from average speakers.

But wait, there's more...

The values offered by the Crown calculator are very conservative because they don't take into account that the listener will be subjected to (in your case) sound pressure from five speakers. So let's turn add up the dBs from those five speakers using another handy calculator:

https://www.noisemeters.ca/apps/db-calculator/

Adding five 90 dB sources equals 97 dB, which is a massive 12 dB higher than THX reference levels (85 dB) and 7 dB higher than your maximum target sound pressure (90 dB). Plus, the Crown calculator factored in a 3 dB overhead before arriving at its wattage levels. So, with about 3 x 60W and 2 x 30W plus one or two powered subs (which I didn't factor into the spl totals because they only operate from roughly 20-90 Hz or so),you'll be able to listen to the audio track of movies or music at more than adequate levels.

The key to all of this, however, is quality. Those wattages assume that your selected amp is capable of continuous and sustained delivery of 60/30W into four ohm loads without (and I stress without) clipping. But let's be even more conservative by saying that the requirement is for the wattages we calculated to be at 8 ohms... in case you choose a speaker with an 8 ohm nominal impedance.

For ease of set up and consistency, you may wish to select amplifiers that are capable of delivering 60W RMS at your speakers' impedance to all five channels (rear included). The advantage to this is that it allows you to choose between one or five amps from the same manufacturer. This increases the likelihood that all amps will respond with the same linearity as volume increases, making it easier for room correction software etc. to do its job correctly.

The amp you choose could be a five channel one with one or two LFE outputs, an AV controller with LFE outputs plus a three channel amp for the front and two channel amp for the rear) or any logical combination.

I haven't gone into seven channels or higher because, frankly, it would violate some of the assumptions previously listed. Going that route would require speakers on stands at mid points in your room (hallway and fireplace) and/or suspended from your sloping ceiling. I suspect this could create some domestic friction, so let's avoid making this a part of the plan.

Things would be much different in a large rectangular non dual-use space away from main entry doors... but it's important to work with the space you have. Your space isn't ideal but it isn't bad either. The sloping ceiling has some advantages wrt keeping ceiling reflections from affecting the seating area, scattering etc. The windows on the front walll are reflective, but heavy curtains and speaker placement can help resolve this. The downside is that going seven channels or higher may be too much for your space, but this helps you focus on making your five channels "count" in terms of sound quality as opposed to spatial effects.
Man, I sincerely appreciate all of this info and research!! Every assumption you made was spot on. It's like you live with me lol. Thanks for the Boxer comment...he turned 9 yesterday. So one key part I learned was it's not always about having the most power with the biggest amp I can or can't afford. For the most part, my speaker placement will need to stay where they are besides the sub (or subs) in the future. I have some wiggle room on where subs can be placed. I will entertain the idea of moving my sofa away from the wall but the only concern with that is it will bring my viewing distance to my 75-inch TV even closer than it is now so I will experiment with that. As far as purchasing the "perfect" piece of equipment to upgrade, it seems like I can't really go wrong with too many options and it will probably end up being more personal opinion then somebody being able to just tell me what I need to buy and be done with it. I've noticed on this forum that everybody has their own personal opinion and nobody seems to be right or wrong, it's just what they have used in the past or currently that seems to have worked for them.I only kept referencing the ATI amps and Marantz processors because they were highly recommended to me from a number of people now in my personal life but was just concerned that I was getting too sucked up into the moment and we'll end up paying quite a bit more money for something that, in my unprofessional ears, wouldn't even notice the difference between separate and a really good AVR. I will do some more thinking before I pull the trigger and spend unnecessary money, hopefully lol. Once again, I sincerely appreciate all the time you took to figure all this out for my specific living room and I will definitely take it into serious consideration on your thoughts. Thank you!
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#46
Man, I sincerely appreciate all of this info and research!! Every assumption you made was spot on. It's like you live with me lol. Thanks for the Boxer comment...he turned 9 yesterday. So one key part I learned was it's not always about having the most power with the biggest amp I can or can't afford. For the most part, my speaker placement will need to stay where they are besides the sub (or subs) in the future. I have some wiggle room on where subs can be placed. I will entertain the idea of moving my sofa away from the wall but the only concern with that is it will bring my viewing distance to my 75-inch TV even closer than it is now so I will experiment with that. As far as purchasing the "perfect" piece of equipment to upgrade, it seems like I can't really go wrong with too many options and it will probably end up being more personal opinion then somebody being able to just tell me what I need to buy and be done with it. I've noticed on this forum that everybody has their own personal opinion and nobody seems to be right or wrong, it's just what they have used in the past or currently that seems to have worked for them.I only kept referencing the ATI amps and Marantz processors because they were highly recommended to me from a number of people now in my personal life but was just concerned that I was getting too sucked up into the moment and we'll end up paying quite a bit more money for something that, in my unprofessional ears, wouldn't even notice the difference between separate and a really good AVR. I will do some more thinking before I pull the trigger and spend unnecessary money, hopefully lol. Once again, I sincerely appreciate all the time you took to figure all this out for my specific living room and I will definitely take it into serious consideration on your thoughts. Thank you!
My pleasure, @Zedturbo. I spent a fair amount of my later professional life in planning and procurement, which forced me to think a certain way (it was really hard at first but became easier over time). I'm now glad it can serve a purpose other than blowing stuff up (or preventing our troops from getting blown up, as positive as that was to families at the time).

The photos really helped me understand how you were using your space... from the layout to the furnishings and even the pup (I'd imagine in his earlier years, your boxer would bound around the room and bump into things as my bull terrier (RIP) did). So I imagined how people and pets might interact with that space instead.

Free of the impulse to buy massive power, you can now focus instead on stability, flexibility, and scaleability. If I were in your place, I'd be looking at AB amplification because it tends to be more linear than Class D amplification (which is superb for sub woofers, making big watts efficiently to fill large spaces, outdoors etc. with sound).

My gut tells me that a three channel and a two channel, controlled by an AV Controller could work, as long as everything spec' out. Or a really, really good 5.x AVR. Really good quality (well spec'd and well tested) components and speakers would likely sound better than whatever 7.x or 9.x gear is readily available at a big box store (because the latter is intended to meet a broader range of needs, for less than well defined uses, by not-always well informed customers).

I think you might see good results from wall mounted speakers for the back channels. Ones that angle the drivers down a few degrees would allow you to place them higher on the wall (away from hips and shoulders, so you can make real use of that pass through). This might not be ideal sonically, but would be a good compromise between living and listening in your space. It would almost certainly out perform what and where your credentials gear is.

Keep us posted on your project. As with all good things, it may take time. So don't rush to judgement or purchase the first thing you see. There are lots of people here to consult.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
7,379 19 6
#47
the ATi 200x5, I can use that amp for any future speaker I choose later on down the road.
Might also check your local Craigslist. I recently sold my ATI AT3005 for $2K. I currently have my ATI AT2005 listed on Craigslist for $1800. A local “disabled vet” might be buying for $1500 in April.
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#48
My pleasure, @Zedturbo. I spent a fair amount of my later professional life in planning and procurement, which forced me to think a certain way (it was really hard at first but became easier over time). I'm now glad it can serve a purpose other than blowing stuff up (or preventing our troops from getting blown up, as positive as that was to families at the time).

The photos really helped me understand how you were using your space... from the layout to the furnishings and even the pup (I'd imagine in his earlier years, your boxer would bound around the room and bump into things as my bull terrier (RIP) did). So I imagined how people might interact with that space instead of sitting in the ideal listening position.

Free of an impulse to buy power, you can now focus on stability, flexibility, and scaleability. If I were in your place, I'd be looking at AB amplification because it tends to be more linear than Class D amplification (which is superb for sub woofers, making big watts efficiently to fill large spaces, outdoors etc. with sound). My gut tells me that a three channel and a two channel, controlled by an AV Controller could work, as long as everything spec' out. Or a really, really good 5.x AVR. Well chosen components and speaker would likely sound better than indifferently assembled 7.x or 9.x gear.

I think you might see good results from wall mounted speakers for the back channels. Ones that angle the drivers down a few degrees would allow you to place them higher on the wall (away from hips and shoulders, so you can make real use of that pass through). Again, this might not be ideal sonically, but would be a good compromise between living and listening in your space.

Keep us posted on your project. As with all good things, it may take time. So don't rush to judgement.
Can I then ask your opinion on the Yamaha Advantage RX-A3080 vs Marantz Sr8012?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
5,039 18 47
#49
Yes I have actually. I really like the thought of a couple 12 inch subs over 15 in so I can get some of the lower bass notes. I feel like the 15in might just be too overwhelming overall.
Generally the larger subs will go lower but depends on specifics. No replacement for displacement to an extent. The overwhelming part would only be if you set the system up for them to overwhelm (which wouldn't be advisable unless that's your preference). Might want to check this article out, tho https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Ninja
Ratings
1,842 6 1
#50
Yes I have actually. I really like the thought of a couple 12 inch subs over 15 in so I can get some of the lower bass notes. I feel like the 15in might just be too overwhelming overall.
https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000

https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-4000

As far as overwhelming, a 15 can easily(and should be) level matched to the setup and once properly set up won’t be overwhelming. As far as your room goes, I like(and use) the cylinder design by SVS. I think that would offer more placement options, AND completely destroy the poor little 10”er you have now. I know subs aren’t higher on your list but it’s a segue into my recommendation. IMO, you’d be best served with a nice flagship(or very near flagship that can offer more value than the absolute top of the line) AVR, and one or two subs. IMO that would give the biggest upgrade impact. Then, you can take some time and really evaluate the separates thing. Pre/pros are usually stupid expensive compared to a good AVR and are usually slow to adapt newer features. I personally like the denon x4400/4500 or Marantz 7012/7103. The denon offers a better overall value in the nuts and volts sense but the choice would be a personal one. Yamaha builds great gear but I personally LOATHE their menu systems and they have some proprietary sound options that I find useless and confusing. That’s just my opinion.
So my nutshell vote is a high quality AVR with the extra money devoted to subwoofer/s. After awhile you can decide about the amp thing, but my gut says new speakers will be money far better spent. After that I think it makes sense to see if you really need amps. Now, if we’re simply talking machismo? Buy a rack full, and give everyone the finger! Amps are cool and come with bragging rights so...

Gotta go. My son wants me to drive his RC truck!
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#51
Can I then ask your opinion on the Yamaha Advantage RX-A3080 vs Marantz Sr8012?
Download the owner's manuals and look carefully at the specs.

Do they have the number of channels you need or more (your space doesn't appear to be one where 7.x, 9.x or 11.x would be easy)? If more, are you interested in paying for pre amp and amp stages you will never use?

Is the rated power in RMS or peak? At clipping or below? How does this compare with your needs? If considerably more, are you willing to pay for that which you will never use?

Is the output all channels driven, or one or two channels? This will give you an indication of the overall quality of the power supply and amp current draw.

Is the output 4 ohm capable/recommended? If not, then you could have problems driving certain 8 and 6 ohm (nominal) speakers at some frequencies and all 4 ohm (nominal) speakers at all frequencies.

All of these questions apply independent of price. Why? Because we have pretty well defined your needs, so anything that doesn't meet those needs is unacceptable at any price. Anything that exceeds those needs may be acceptable as long as they don't come at an unacceptably high delta-cost... but you're in the best position to determine that.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Ninja
Ratings
1,842 6 1
#53
Download the owner's manuals and look carefully at the specs.

Do they have the number of channels you need or more (your space doesn't appear to be one where 7.x, 9.x or 11.x would be easy)? If more, are you interested in paying for pre amp and amp stages you will never use?

Is the rated power in RMS or peak? At clipping or below? How does this compare with your needs? If considerably more, are you willing to pay for that which you will never use?

Is the output all channels driven, or one or two channels? This will give you an indication of the overall quality of the power supply and amp current draw.

Is the output 4 ohm capable/recommended? If not, then you could have problems driving certain 8 and 6 ohm (nominal) speakers at some frequencies and all 4 ohm (nominal) speakers at all frequencies.

All of these questions apply independent of price. Why? Because we have pretty well defined your needs, so anything that doesn't meet those needs is unacceptable at any price. Anything that exceeds those needs may be acceptable as long as they don't come at an unacceptably high delta-cost... but you're in the best position to determine that.
Hey grim, you forgot to add that he should read AVR reviews by our very own master chief Gene!!!

Also, I agree. Anything over a 5ch(atmos notwithstanding cause I think 5.x.2 would be nice in there)would just not work. I don’t think he can move the couch ahead enough to make adding rear surrounds worthwhile and not have the room look stupid with a couch in the middle. It’s a nice room, and despite my appreciation of function over form, that just wouldn’t work.
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#54
https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000

https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-4000

As far as overwhelming, a 15 can easily(and should be) level matched to the setup and once properly set up won’t be overwhelming. As far as your room goes, I like(and use) the cylinder design by SVS. I think that would offer more placement options, AND completely destroy the poor little 10”er you have now. I know subs aren’t higher on your list but it’s a segue into my recommendation. IMO, you’d be best served with a nice flagship(or very near flagship that can offer more value than the absolute top of the line) AVR, and one or two subs. IMO that would give the biggest upgrade impact. Then, you can take some time and really evaluate the separates thing. Pre/pros are usually stupid expensive compared to a good AVR and are usually slow to adapt newer features. I personally like the denon x4400/4500 or Marantz 7012/7103. The denon offers a better overall value in the nuts and volts sense but the choice would be a personal one. Yamaha builds great gear but I personally LOATHE their menu systems and they have some proprietary sound options that I find useless and confusing. That’s just my opinion.
So my nutshell vote is a high quality AVR with the extra money devoted to subwoofer/s. After awhile you can decide about the amp thing, but my gut says new speakers will be money far better spent. After that I think it makes sense to see if you really need amps. Now, if we’re simply talking machismo? Buy a rack full, and give everyone the finger! Amps are cool and come with bragging rights so...

Gotta go. My son wants me to drive his RC truck!
Awesome advice man, thanks! I'm definitely in the market for sub upgrades. I also think I'm just going to go with a really nice AVR from all the above and help everyone has given me here on the forum. Sounds like I should save my money and by the nice AVR and upgrade subs
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#55
Hey grim, you forgot to add that he should read AVR reviews by our very own master chief Gene!!!

Also, I agree. Anything over a 5ch(atmos notwithstanding cause I think 5.x.2 would be nice in there)would just not work. I don’t think he can move the couch ahead enough to make adding rear surrounds worthwhile and not have the room look stupid with a couch in the middle. It’s a nice room, and despite my appreciation of function over form, that just wouldn’t work.
I agree as far as the couch goes. Doesn't look like I can move it w/o looking stupid. my speaker layout is pretty much set and I don't have any options on moving anything besides when I add subs. I was thinking of putting one 12 inch sub on each side of the TV in front of the room. That would probably be about all I can do and this I choose that one 15-inch sub and put it somewhere in the room. As far aspaying money for separates that I probably won't even use, I do need to step back and realize that I'm not trying to fill a huge room and I don't have awesome latest and greatest speakers either. Their nice but a bit older now so will upgrade around what I have.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#56
Hey grim, you forgot to add that he should read AVR reviews by our very own master chief Gene!!!
Absolutely. Gene's reviews are excellent.

I agree as far as the couch goes. Doesn't look like I can move it w/o looking stupid. my speaker layout is pretty much set and I don't have any options on moving anything besides when I add subs. I was thinking of putting one 12 inch sub on each side of the TV in front of the room. That would probably be about all I can do and this I choose that one 15-inch sub and put it somewhere in the room. As far aspaying money for separates that I probably won't even use, I do need to step back and realize that I'm not trying to fill a huge room and I don't have awesome latest and greatest speakers either. Their nice but a bit older now so will upgrade around what I have.
If you can't move the sofa, then I'm not sure how much effort it's worth buying rear speakers. Anyone sitting on the sofa would be outside their dispersion pattern. They're just too close and laterally displaced. Replacements would be too high, too close.

Don't get hung up about where you're going to put your sub(s). Placed and configured properly, these things are best not seen and not heard (directly). Besides, putting subs on either side of the TV will cause a massive node and a standing wave in your space at 80-100 Hz and make it feel like a mobster has put your head in a vice.

Plug in frequencies here to see the wavelength...

http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#57
Absolutely. Gene's reviews are excellent.



If you can't move the sofa, then I'm not sure how much effort it's worth buying rear speakers. Anyone sitting on the sofa would be outside their dispersion pattern. They're just too close and laterally displaced. Replacements would be too high, too close.

Don't get hung up about where you're going to put your sub(s). Placed and configured properly, these things are best not seen and not heard (directly). Besides, putting subs on either side of the TV will cause a massive node and a standing wave in your space at 80-100 Hz and make it feel like a mobster has put your head in a vice.

Plug in frequencies here to see the wavelength...

http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm
I already have the rear surround hanging up on the wall just above the couch. Not sure if they were noticable in the pics
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
7,379 19 6
#58
Can I then ask your opinion on the Yamaha Advantage RX-A3080 vs Marantz Sr8012?
The Yamaha has a little more power for 2Ch and 5CH, but insignificant difference.

The Yamaha probably has better reliability and HDMI compatibility.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
221 9 11
#59
I already have the rear surround hanging up on the wall just above the couch. Not sure if they were noticable in the pics
I saw those not long after you posted them. It's pretty much the only place you could put them with your sofa placement but a massive problem nonetheless.

My concern is that any upgraded replacements won't give you much bang for buck because the are not in behind listeners, but off to the side with the cones pointed past listeners (except for the side chair, which isn't a good viewing or listening position anyway). This is a problem because speakers have a primary sound radiation pattern... think of it as a strong cone of sound radiating a total of between 40-80 degrees (or 20-40 degrees either side of the longitudinal axis of the cone) from the face of each speaker.

My first recommendation was to mount a downward firing speaker higher the wall... but as long as the seating position is up against the back wall, this won't work.

An alternative (think of this as the 3rd best solution) would be to have stand mounted speakers off to the sides of the sofa, angled inwards. This would likely sound pretty weird because an AVR or AV Controller will try to drive them as if they were properly placed.

Besides all that, having a listening position against a back wall is considered the very worst thing one can do for sound quality... my previous post concerns bass but higher frequencies reflect off back walls as well (though not as efficiently because of their frequency, they can be very bit as audible).

Without some semblance of order in speaker placement, the chance of achieving good sound quality goes pretty much out the window.

If you flip the furniture around, you'll still face the same problem... reflections off the back surface behind the sofa.
 
Zedturbo

Zedturbo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
5
#60
Hey grim, you forgot to add that he should read AVR reviews by our very own master chief Gene!!!

Also, I agree. Anything over a 5ch(atmos notwithstanding cause I think 5.x.2 would be nice in there)would just not work. I don’t think he can move the couch ahead enough to make adding rear surrounds worthwhile and not have the room look stupid with a couch in the middle. It’s a nice room, and despite my appreciation of function over form, that just wouldn’t work.
Is there a link to Gene's AVR reviews?
 

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