The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[Bookmark]

Oh I meant to mention Dolby has a nice Object demo like Dts Audiosphere for those interested.
https://www.demolandia.net/cinema/dolby-demo-trailers-hd/page-9.html

 

[VonMagnum]

I think there is some confusion about Atmos and X. People want more objects, but it's meaningless without more speakers. You don't get more precise imaging than channel based with 7.1.4 (they'd probably like you to believe that in the marketing department).

DTS:X content doesn't need "upgraded". That's not how it works. All content will work with DTS:X Pro. It's already marked with meta data. Neural X will simply engage more speakers if your AVR supports them. In fact, it already does up until the channel limit (e.g. It can use the VOG or CH for sounds approaching those positions as long as you still have channels left. Set for 5.1.4 + CH + VOG on a Denon 8500. It will use them all. All the remaining channels are between existing channels so they can all be used by DTS:X Pro.

More importantly, there is no real noticeable functional difference between Neural X creating something like Top Middle from between front and rear heights and Atmos creating it from its object data. It still has to be mixed and panned in the real world.

Where Disney soundtracks go wrong is they lock our Atmos' ability to render those pans to more speakers. Atmos has no Neural X equivalent that works in Atmos soundtracks. DSU is for upmixing non-Atmos soundtracks only and it's mono across all heights in each channel (i.e. All left heights play the same thing). This is why Neural X is so superior. It handles mixing for non-X soundtracks the same as extra speakers in X ones. It's only limitation so far was that hard 11-channel limit that will soon not exist. Sadly, what will kill X in the long run is the lack of streaming support).

My weird exception system will become more common as channels go up and prices come down on AVRs. 7.1 used to be a weird exception. More channels are needed in larger rooms and to give the same experience for all seating locations (e.g. Center height that Atmos doesn't use and dialog lift that most home systems need, but aren't an issue in cinemas since their speakers are behind the audio transparent screen, not below it (some have this at home, but it's rare).

As for the Huntsman, the review I read suggested the opposite (Snow White was a waste and Neural X did as well or better and Winter's War had more overhead use). That's why I didn't bother buying the 4K Snow White. I watched Winter's War in 3D with X and I seem to recall quite a bit of overhead use (not as much as Potter, but not terrible). The Snow White review I read only mentioned two scenes that had overhead sound by comparison.

 

[VonMagnum]

Oh I meant to mention Dolby has a nice Object demo like Dts Audiosphere for those interested.
https://www.demolandia.net/cinema/dolby-demo-trailers-hd/page-9.html

Which demo are you referring to? Audiosphere? It's really not comparable to the DTS X moving ball demo, IMO.

I'm disappointed there haven't been any new demos in some time for either format.

 

[VonMagnum]

That does not work with Dts:X it turns off Neural X, exactly the same as Atmos ignores a DSU setting.

X doesn't turn Neural X off internally. It's part of X and how it pans to front wides if you have them and haven't run out of channels. CH and TS work if you have enough free channels as wides are between fronts and sides. As I indicated above, the Pro version will support up to 34 speakers. They will work with existing X soundtracks as far as I know. X is encoded with up to 16 channel based objects that can be assigned to any of the 32 regular speaker locations. The others are then extracted where appropriate with Neural X internally (when they fall between assigned channels). Whether it can use objects more like Atmos, I don't know, but that was the way it was explained on AVS at least for the home version. The pro version was demonstrated on Trinnov years ago. It has simply not been available until now (other than the 8500 and a couple other really high end units, it really wasn't needed until now). It simply removes the channel limits. Nothing else changes from what I read. Neural X can then use up to 32 (or was it 34?) speakers with 16 fully discrete channels/objects and 16 more extracted.

Virtual X doesn't allow any physical overhead/height speakers. Your's is a very specific personal issue and not something most people are troubled...

That's what is great about virtual X. It does better than bouncy speakers. It sounds almost as good as my real speakers for the MLP in my room. Imagine not needing any more than 7.1 speakers in a formal living room and still getting great overhead sound. It's a lot like binaural, really. The big problem is you can't use it with Atmos. That hamstrings it with no alternative from Dolby whatsoever. The best you can do is Neural X upmix Dolby via multi-channel PCM output.

 

[Bookmark]

X doesn't turn Neural X off internally.

You appear to be treading a lone furrow on this. I have seen no one else suggest Neural X is the same as Dts:X, or that Neural X is a sub/super set of Dts:X. Dts:X is based off MDA, Mutli Dimensional Audio open platform from SRS Labs and is a Format. Neural X doesn't read or make use of Atmos/Dts:X meta data, which contains the information regarding objects and their vector paths. Neural X is designated as an up mixer, the same as DSU, the meta data, if present is ignored by the up mixers. Both Atmos and Dts:X make use of that meta data in the audio streams to handle objects. If you ignore the meta data then Atmos is True HD and Dts:X is Dts HDMA which is hard coded 7.1 max regardless of how many physical speakers you may have installed.

You are going to have to cite some authoritative proof here, for me to come on board and accept this. Which I am more than happy to do. and I'm sure some other might enjoy a bit of lite reading.

That's what is great about virtual X

And if Marantz allowed it I could use Virtual X on the 6 multi channel inputs that I send from the Yamaha but it doesn't. In fact I cannot up mix the 7.1 multi channel input at all with anything, it might as well be pure direct. If it did work, as I originally thought, then I could have used the up mixers. You can use the up mixers on the stereo analogue inputs, but I need a minimum of 4, not 2. The Rolls does the mixing for the Wides and likely has some phase cancelling and boosting involved in the process. Using more of them or a proper mixing desk, I have a 16:4:2 available, I could create yet more speaker locations now, no need for some technology thing further down the pipe.

 

[snakeeyes]

You appear to be treading a lone furrow on this. I have seen no one else suggest Neural X is the same as Dts:X, or that Neural X is a sub/super set of Dts:X. Dts:X is based off MDA, Mutli Dimensional Audio open platform from SRS Labs and is a Format. Neural X doesn't read or make use of Atmos/Dts:X meta data, which contains the information regarding objects and their vector paths. Neural X is designated as an up mixer, the same as DSU, the meta data, if present is ignored by the up mixers. Both Atmos and Dts:X make use of that meta data in the audio streams to handle objects. If you ignore the meta data then Atmos is True HD and Dts:X is Dts HDMA which is hard coded 7.1 max regardless of how many physical speakers you may have installed.

You are going to have to cite some authoritative proof here, for me to come on board and accept this. Which I am more than happy to do. and I'm sure some other might enjoy a bit of lite reading.


And if Marantz allowed it I could use Virtual X on the 6 multi channel inputs that I send from the Yamaha but it doesn't. In fact I cannot up mix the 7.1 multi channel input at all with anything, it might as well be pure direct. If it did work, as I originally thought, then I could have used the up mixers. You can use the up mixers on the stereo analogue inputs, but I need a minimum of 4, not 2. The Rolls does the mixing for the Wides and likely has some phase cancelling and boosting involved in the process. Using more of them or a proper mixing desk, I have a 16:4:2 available, I could create yet more speaker locations now, no need for some technology thing further down the pipe.

So just wondering, are all Atmos titles 7.1.4 and all DTSX titles 7.1.4 ? Including Atmos over DD+. Or are there titles in 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 or 5.1.2 etc? And what happens on a 7.1.6 AVR if source is 7.1.4 ? Is DSU or NeuralX creating 2 channels?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So just wondering, are all Atmos titles 7.1.4 and all DTSX titles 7.1.4 ? Including Atmos over DD+. Or are there titles in 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 or 5.1.2 etc? And what happens on a 7.1.6 AVR if source is 7.1.4 ? Is DSU or NeuralX creating 2 channels?

As far as the labeling, I've only seen "Dolby Atmos/ Dolby TrueHD 7.1".

So I don't think there is even a label that reads "7.1.2" or "7.1.4". It's just Atmos-7.1.

So I guess if your AVR has 6 ceiling speakers, then the 7.1 = 7.1.6.

Definitely debatable all day long, but I can't help thinking that anything over 2 ceiling speakers is just good for making the overhead sound more Dynamic (play louder without distorting),which is good since most ceiling speakers are kind of weak and on the cheap side compared to the main floor speakers.

 

[VonMagnum]

@Bookmark, How do you suppose DTS:X sends anything to the front wides, center height or top surround with an X movie if Neural X isn't steering things to those speakers? SOMETHING is doing it. It's been verified by 8500 owners at AVS trying 5.1.4 + either TM, CH + TS or front wides. They all work and work correctly. Given most/all US X titles do not use objects, how is there output? Even with 16 fixed objects/channels, you couldn't have discrete content for 17.1 channels 9.1.6 + CH + TS). I think the 8500 supports surround2 as an option as well (second side surround or what I call rear wides in my system). That would be 19.1 possible channels, but then I'm forgetting about surround height that X also supports. That's 21.1 channels to pick from, but only 11 at a time.

From Filmmixer's comments, we gather X is essentially an assignable channel system (that's apparently how its objects work or are currently used, similar to fixed Atmos except that Neural X can create channels in-between the same way Pro Logic can, allowing up to 32 speakers rather than 16.

@snakeeyes - Real Atmos uses whatever you have that objects approach in the layout.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So just wondering, are all Atmos titles 7.1.4 and all DTSX titles 7.1.4 ? Including Atmos over DD+. Or are there titles in 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 or 5.1.2 etc? And what happens on a 7.1.6 AVR if source is 7.1.4 ? Is DSU or NeuralX creating 2 channels?

Far as I know atmos tracks are all 7.1 This this is basically the “bed”layer and the reason it’s backwards compatible. The difference is that an atmos decoder will read the metadata to properly place the objects into the room, or overhead. On a pre atmos receiver, all the metadata is just folded into the bed layer channels. So it depends on speaker layout for whether it’s played back in 7.1.4 or 5.1.2 etc. the decoder knows the layout and plays back metadata accordingly. If you have a 5.1 system and play an atmos track it will fold the rear surround coding into the surrounds(sides).

 

[snakeeyes]

As far as the labeling, I've only seen "Dolby Atmos/ Dolby TrueHD 7.1".

So I don't think there is even a label that reads "7.1.2" or "7.1.4". It's just Atmos-7.1.

So I guess if your AVR has 6 ceiling speakers, then the 7.1 = 7.1.6.

Definitely debatable all day long, but I can't help thinking that anything over 2 ceiling speakers is just good for making the overhead sound more Dynamic (play louder without distorting),which is good since most ceiling speakers are kind of weak and on the cheap side compared to the main floor speakers.

Ya trying to figure out if .6 is like a pair between the .4 pairs. Not sure I have room but may pre wire for the future.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ya trying to figure out if .6 is like a pair between the .4 pairs. Not sure I have room but may pre wire for the future.

No. .6 is only in reference to how many speakers you have there. The processor has to be able to handle that though. If you have a processor that is only capable of .4, then you’d have to matrix it kind like VM is doing. Plus on a .4 AVR there are no speaker connections. You should read through this. It’s pretty informative.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

Edit: yes. .6 is a pair in between top front and top back. Really only benefits long rooms and multiple rows IMO.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ya trying to figure out if .6 is like a pair between the .4 pairs. Not sure I have room but may pre wire for the future.

Most wires are cheap so it doesn't hurt to pre-wire (don't have to cut holes yet) for .8.

I think even if your AVR/AVP has 7.1.4, you could split/matrix the .4 into .8.

 

[snakeeyes]

No. .6 is only in reference to how many speakers you have there. The processor has to be able to handle that though. If you have a processor that is only capable of .4, then you’d have to matrix it kind like VM is doing. Plus on a .4 AVR there are no speaker connections. You should read through this. It’s pretty informative.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

Edit: yes. .6 is a pair in between top front and top back. Really only benefits long rooms and multiple rows IMO.

Right so my current AVR can do 5.1.4 and that will work great once I get it all setup. I can take a couple days off work in March and get it done finally. (But still have other upgrades in mind next year that I’m saving up for this year)

 

[VonMagnum]

As far as the labeling, I've only seen "Dolby Atmos/ Dolby TrueHD 7.1".

So I don't think there is even a label that reads "7.1.2" or "7.1.4". It's just Atmos-7.1.

So I guess if your AVR has 6 ceiling speakers, then the 7.1 = 7.1.6.

Definitely debatable all day long, but I can't help thinking that anything over 2 ceiling speakers is just good for making the overhead sound more Dynamic (play louder without distorting),which is good since most ceiling speakers are kind of weak and on the cheap side compared to the main floor speakers.

You need at least 4 overhead speakers to pan front to back on the ceiling. Otherwise a helicopter or other object can only fly left/right or hover. The extra speakers allow it to fly in all directions. 6 overhead speakers bridge front to back in longer size rooms as phantom images can only pan so far before it starts getting a gap/hole in the imaging. Center height locks the top front center in place for all seats like center does for dialog. Atmos doesn't support that one, but X and Auro do. You could extract it with a Pro Logic processor as a center between front heights to get it to work with Atmos/everything. Top Surround locks center middle height for all seats and in rooms with higher ceilings it can convey better depth for height.

X supports center rear height as well I think. Atmos supports lower rear center and two more between surround side 2 and rear, but I think only the Trinnov supports these so far.

 

[Bookmark]

How do you suppose DTS:X sends anything to the front wides, center height or top surround with an X movie

Dts X is layout agnostic already. It can derive Wides, Middles, Tops without any need to resort to Neural X. There is a current hard limit on hardware support side, soon to be removed to match Dolby. But how Denon, Trinnov, Emotiva, etc get around this now is likely different in each case and proprietary. Which may or may not involve the use of common code for handling up mixing. You are just speculating it is Neural X. If Dolby. Dts. Trinnov want to tell the rest of us how it's actually done I am all for that but I won't be holding my breath.

 

[VonMagnum]

I really don't feel like arguing, but you're talking semantics. Exactly HOW do you think it achieves layout agnostic behavior without objects??? These AVRs don't use custom methods for God's sake. They all behave the same with X. DTS owns Neural X. Whether you want to avoid the label/name, it won't change the method used to extract non-discrete channels. X does this with all X soundtracks. Atmos does not.

There are discussions on AVS about this. It's not like I made it all up. So if I'm wrong, they're wrong. We'll know for sure once Trinnov gets the DTS:X Pro update (I know someone with a Trinnov on AVS).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You need at least 4 overhead speakers to pan front to back on the ceiling. Otherwise a helicopter or other object can only fly left/right or hover.

A 5.1.2 Object-base Atmos system cannot image sound in front and behind you?

You don’t think a single speaker can image the sound (pan) from the front of the sofa to the back of the sofa?

A speaker is capable of imaging sound laterally and vertically, right?

Sure, if the distance is too far, then the speaker won’t be able to image that far. But from the front of the sofa to the back of the sofa, which is about 4 ft?

What do you think, @shadyJ ?

 

[VonMagnum]

A 5.1.2 Object-base Atmos system cannot image sound in front and behind you?

Not on the ceiling (unless you mounted them front/back instead of Left/Right but that would not match the content. 5.1.2 can pan at ear level, of course. Things in-between might appear to image front/back because they're a mix of the bed and ceiling level speakers, but a true ceiling only pan (e.g. Atmos helicopter demo) can only move left/right.

You don’t think a single speaker can image the sound (pan) from the front of the sofa to the back of the sofa?

A single speaker is mono by definition. It cannot image anywhere except right at the speaker itself.

A speaker is capable of imaging sound laterally and vertically, right?

Two speakers can image in both directions in a sense... in that binaural type phase data might sound like it's coming higher/lower in the image, but it's not a true vertical/intentional pan of the type we are talking about. In other words, something like DTS Virtual X does indeed image vertically with floor only speakers (5.x.0) but it's using binaural type clues to fool your ears). I'm referring to normal Atmos front to back ceiling pans. Those require 4 speakers. (e.g. Front left to Rear Left, Front left to Front Right and again for right speakers to back and any combination in-between for middle to back or even middle left/right on the ceiling).

Sure, if the distance is too far, then the speaker won’t be able to image that far. But from the front of the sofa to the back of the sofa, which is about 4 ft?

Single speakers don't pan to themselves. I'm talking about front of the room to the back of the room (or whatever distance is between two ceiling speakers). Two stereo Left/Right speakers can pan left/right and they can sometimes approximate depth. But without binaural type clues, they can't image up/down or in right in front of the speakers. The out of phase material might approximate a bit of wrap-around (e.g. Billy Idol's Cyber-Punk album has some out-of-phase stuff that will seem to come from my sides with just stereo).

With two overheads, you typically either do two front height/tops or two top middles. If you want sound directly overhead, you go with top middle. If you want screen height effects or the room won't allow mounting them in the middle, you do front height/tops . If you want front to back panning you need both (or rear height/tops instead of top middle then as it can then pan across the ceiling of the room).

 

[Bookmark]

Exactly HOW do you think it achieves layout agnostic behavior without objects???

When exactly did I indicate Dts:X is not an object based format? Dts:X is an object based format, Neural X is not. Dts:X is layout agnostic because it works with polar coordinates relative from the MLP.

You should have lead with this in the first place. (Denon Manual, surround setting)

Regardless won't work on Dts:X objects or Atmos ones, especially going forward, but then it should not have to.

Full link.
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX8500H/NA/EN/GFNFSYvdfworfs.php

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Huntsman Winter’s War in DTSX.

After watching this star-studded movie (Chris Hemsworth, Jessica Chastain, Charlize Theron, Emily Blunt), I have concluded that the DTSX sound isn’t as bad as I had originally thought (initial 15 minutes didn’t have much overhead).

But overall the OH sound was pretty good. There were some good moments. Nothing stood out like the DTSX sound from Snow White, but overall pretty good.

The post-credit extra scene was strange - Snow White stands on the balcony, her back faces us, a raven flies by her side and lands on the balcony wall.