The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[Bookmark]

NE Patriots

Not a fan, and these days I only usually get to see the Superbowl. This year the game was really dull and I don't particularly like Maroon 5, last years was incredible and not just because of the result. Started decades ago with the Raiders and then the Bears in days of the Fridge, don't think either has had the best of luck since ,but I still hold a candle. I do usually like the half time shows and the Superbowl ads, we don't get the ads, it's the BBC, but I like looking for them afterward.

Atmos 28 ponts, DTSX 3 points, 3rd Quarter

I would be happy enough if they gave up UHDs and settled for winning the Blurays with X. But competition is competition, Dolby won the Dvds, but best discs were always the Dts ones. Bluray is definitely Dts and UHD is Dolby. Who knows maybe Auro returns with a vengeance and savages both.

 

[snakeeyes]

Not a fan, and these days I only usually get to see the Superbowl. This year the game was really dull and I don't particularly like Maroon 5, last years was incredible and not just because of the result. Started decades ago with the Raiders and then the Bears in days of the Fridge, don't think either has had the best of luck since ,but I still hold a candle. I do usually like the half time shows and the Superbowl ads, we don't get the ads, it's the BBC, but I like looking for them afterward.


I would be happy enough if they gave up UHDs and settled for winning the Blurays with X. But competition is competition, Dolby won the Dvds, but best discs were always the Dts ones. Bluray is definitely Dts and UHD is Dolby. Who knows maybe Auro returns with a vengeance and savages both.

I’m not really sure DTS HD MA was better than Dolby TrueHD, since they sound very similar to me, but definitely most Blu-rays were made with DTS HD MA.

 

[Bookmark]

Agree, I was just commenting on numbers really. Dts was although usually almost double the bitrate on Dvds compared to Dolby and the Criterion editions were sometimes even higher. Blurays it's pretty much the same since both are lossless, at least Dts is with the Master Audio, the other variations are compressed. Streaming is really a one horse race. Not sure I ever seen something other than Dolby from Netflix or Prime

 

[VonMagnum]

I've read Dolby's lossy compression is much more efficient, though than DTS (640 similar to DTS 1200 range?). I'll take whatever immersive soundtrack I can get, though. Any of the three is better than 5.1 or 7.1, IMO.

 

[VonMagnum]

I just watched FLATLINERS (2017 version) in Auro-3D (and compared the opening in Atmos from iTunes). CRAZY UNREAL ceiling sounds!!! In the first 2 minutes even! Voices coming from all around the room and ceiling. It was even weirder from different seats (the 2nd row had holographic ghost-like voices coming from mid-air and above and below). The actual rest of the movie had lots more.... I mean LOUD ceiling sounds. That's the kind of ceiling sounds you'd expect from an immersive system. Too many Atmos movies are too subtle, IMO.

I compared the opening in Atmos and it was loud too, but it seems to "circle" the room more than the Auro-3D version which came from all over the ceiling (like no parts untouched). The Atmos version had some voices there too, but the person watching it with me also commented they thought the Atmos version "encircled" more than it was "directly above". Now it's possible that's because you're expected to have Atmos ceiling speakers closer together than the Auro-3D layout where there are expected to be side heights (i.e. more in-phase sounds compared to "at the speaker"). I'm not sure. Other movies I've compared were far more similar to than dissimilar and I'd have to watch the whole movie in Atmos to see what it does the rest of the time. But for a movie I didn't expect a lot of action from, it had MASSIVE amounts of overhead sound!

 

[Bookmark]

The first three of minutes of Flatliners is very good, however the rest of the film's audio does not exactly keep up. Voices move all over the place for me, mostly overhead. They pan across the back and up and down the sides and even directly overhead, overlapping with echos and reverb added in. Well worth a listen, probably regardless of format, and a good demo piece. My disc is a Dvd with just DD up mixed by Neural X. I didn't think this remake would merited a better quality purchase at the time. It's an ok film and an ok version, but I would still consider the original 1990 better.

Interestingly I just finished The Umbrella Academy (Netflix), also with the teeny, tiny Ellen Page and quite enjoyed this. It's yet another comic book adaptation and there are not too many surprises but the interactions between the members is quite good and I did like the music.

 

[VonMagnum]

You might try the Atmos version some time if you get the chance then because it definitely "kept up" here in Auro-3D (not every scene obviously), but LOADS of overhead sounds throughout the movie. I didn't like the original when I saw it (I might like it better if I saw it now), but I'm pretty sure it didn't have freaky sound effects like that. I might watch it again in streaming Atmos soon to compare.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Today I saw Snow White and the Huntsman 2012 in DTSX.

Not saying anything about the actual movie, just the DTSX sound.

I was very impressed with the sound - a lot of good overhead effects, 3D soundfield, and bass.

At 1:27:00 the ravens fly around Ravenna (the evil queen) inside the castle. You could hear them fly all around the room and up to the ceiling. Extremely cool. And the bass is extremely crazy. Worth watching that one scene repeatedly.

At 1:54:50 the ceiling falls down on the men. Very impressive sound from overhead.

Definitely a demo DTSX disc for me.

If I had seen the Huntsman, KIN, and the Harry Potter movies first, instead of the Jurassic and Bourne movies, I would not have disparaged DTSX.

 

[VonMagnum]

I watched Ready Player One in 3D with Atmos today. Fantastic 3D (no crosstalk issues, great depth, etc.) The movie was kind of weird and kind of cool at the same time, especially for 1980s nostalgia. The Atmos soundtrack was definitely good with lots of overhead sounds at different points, but not as good as some of the Harry Potter soundtracks or as loud as Flatliners, but better than average, I'd say.

I'm really perplexed why they don't crank the volume on overhead effects more. There's a point in Ghost In The Shell were pigeons or some kind of birds fly off the top of the ruined building where the kids were caught and the overheads just seem so low in volume that you can barely follow them the entire time overhead (and I have mine turned up a dB or two over reference). Then I put Flatliners in and the ceiling is LOUD. I really think there needs to be some kind of standard used for levels. Overheads shouldn't be treated like 1980s mono surrounds. Other than bass, they're full range speakers that should get full volume effects when used. Maybe it's just me....

 

[Bookmark]

Jurassic and Bourne movies, I would not have disparaged DTSX.

Funnily enough I re-watched Jason Bourne (Dts:X) and it improved with the Wides I know neither of us were particularly impressed before. It also helped Valerian and Oceans 8. I know they help with separating out the main LR detail and improve the side pans. I have literally no idea how this would help the heights, but it does, apparently for me at least. But then again also going from 5.1 to 7.1 helped round out the rear effects in the room and I would not be inclined to go back 20 years on.

but LOADS of overhead sounds throughout the movie

It has been a while since I watched it and you could well be right about it having more than the first few minutes. I'll put it back on the list.

Other than bass, they're full range speakers that should get full volume effects when used. Maybe it's just me....

No, you are correct but I think these are more down to Directorial or Sound Editing choices who are more focused on the screen and conveying the "message" rather than making us happy about spending shed loads on the setups.

Last couple of days I have spent looking at some movies that had not particularly impressed up till now. Hart's War, Tears of the Sun, The Exorcism of Emily Rose, Need for Speed and a couple of others. Personally I don't really like the Need film Aaron Paul is not really lead material, Dominic Cooper was not great as the baddy and Dakota Johnson is as usual best forgotten. Stand out is really only Michael Keaton and the cars, but it is the sound is so much better than I remember. The fact is it help all of them. EoER is an excellent demo for up mixing during the events.

 

[VonMagnum]

I think the reason we often think Neural X does better than real Atmos is because of those "choices" to tone down the overhead speakers (Neural X doesn't care; it'll just throw it up there). Some of these movies had me wondering if my overhead setup simply couldn't image well overhead across the full ceiling, etc. because I was using heights instead of tops (let's face it even the Atmos demos don't have a helicopter type demo that flies down the middle of the ceiling; it goes AROUND the ceiling and how close together your overheads are determine how much "on the ceiling" it appears to be versus around the periphery of the room. But then you're looking at walls. The periphery is just the ceiling further out, but the further away it is, the lower the perceived angle.

But then along comes a movie like Flatliners and sounds imaged in every possible location LOUD on the ceiling and it's obvious the problem isn't my speakers, it's the soundtracks. Some people just crank the overheads up like 6dB and then they're happy. Yeah, that's how much lower some of those sounds are compared to the sides or front.

Then we have Disney purposely "printing" Atmos to 7.1.4. I saw a thread on the Emotiva forums and the moderator suggested Dolby never intended Atmos to be a coordinate system that allows "scaling" to whatever size room and speakers you have so much as they wanted to "enable" producers to decide FOR YOU what you get to experience. Thus, if Disney wants only 7.1.4, Dolby's job is to provide the ability to let them screw over people's high-end systems. He didn't quite put it that way, of course, but that's the gist as far as I'm concerned.

I don't do 11.1.6 because I just want more speakers for the hell of it. My room is too long with three rows of seats to get by with just 7.1.4. With the top middles disabled, I get a bit of a "hole" overhead as the angles are too far to image correctly from the front of the room all the 24' to the back with only an 8.5' ceiling. I NEED 6 overheads to make it work for this room (my only other choice would have been to use "tops" instead, but that would mean all overhead sounds were "in front of" the last row and barely behind the second row). Along comes Disney and says, "NO, you cannot have 6 overheads with our movies. You get 4 only! Ha ha!" and RUINS the soundtrack except the fact I cheat by extracting the top middle speaker (split channel with Pro Logic and extract the "center"). This makes 6 overheads work with 7.1.4 soundtracks and even Auro-3D soundtracks. Matrixed or extracted can do the same for wides or any other discrete stereo pair (extract a speaker halfway between).

But the point is that people with discrete .6 overheads will just have their top middle go SILENT with Disney Atmos whether they "need" it or not to work for their larger room! To me, this defeats the ENTIRE POINT of Atmos as a scalable system that can serve small home theaters or large home theaters. Those extra speakers aren't just there for more precision, but there because multiple rows need more speakers to get a good experience and ultimately so does the MLP as the speakers stretch further away and phantom imaging falls apart at those longer distances. A Trinnov can probably correct for this by using its image remapping system that will simulate the correct virtual setup with any number of speakers, but lesser systems just have their extra speakers go silent. DTS:X has a similar problem with the 11-speaker limit, but it looks like they're finally going to correct that this year. Auro's solution was to add more arrayed speakers in the theater. That's less discrete for objects, but it works to give a similar experience of a smaller 11-13 channel theater across a larger number of seats (some might even prefer that; my matrixed wides behave somewhat like that as the side surrounds phantom image further back for rows 2 and 3 and come forward a bit to be at the sides for row 1 instead of behind it).

But that's one of the reasons I did not buy the Denon 8500. Not only did it cost more, but it would have been hampered by both Disney Atmos "lite" and the DTS:X limitations.

 

[Bookmark]

But that's one of the reasons I did not buy the Denon 8500. Not only did it cost more, but it would have been hampered by both Disney Atmos "lite" and the DTS:X limitations.

I don't know how Denon actually handle the 6 overheads if they are used in a setup with Atmos/Dts:X. Obviously with objects then it should not really be a problem. AFAIK there are no Dts:X discs with objects, not that it doesn't support them, just they have not been coded on the releases to date. For Dts:X it may use a partial up mix, a straight mix for the middle pair or they are just silent. I have no 4k discs, beyond a loan of Underworld's Blood Wars which is Atmos, but if Disney Atmos support objects then it likely works fine and would do even on a 7.x.8 setup without a problem as would any Atmos disc. Disney and it's subsidiary companies like Marvel, Lucas or Pixar do not release Atmos/Dts:X on blurays. Warner Bros are probably the best bet currently, I don't think Sony is too keen on them either. I will likely get in to 4k at some point but currently the cost/benefit is not there for me at the moment.

 

[VonMagnum]

I don't know how Denon actually handle the 6 overheads if they are used in a setup with Atmos/Dts:X. Obviously with objects then it should not really be a problem.

The problem is Disney doesn't use objects. They use "locked objects" in a 7.1.4 configuration. Essentially, that is the same as using channels only. Even so, channels aren't necessarily limited (they are with Dolby since its upmixer sucks). But DTS:X has like 16 objects that are really just channels in practice that can be assigned to any of the 34 possible locations in the meta data. The other 16 can be decoded "between" using Neural X which is basically the same as Pro Logic (it extracts a center between). DTS:X supports up to 34 channels total (2 are LFE so that's 16 possible locations with the rest split/steered between. Up until now it DTS:X has had a hard limit of 11.1 channels. DTS:X Pro will remove that limit and allow up to the full 34 to be used with Neural X. In practice, full DTS:X Pro is probably nearly as functional as Dolby Atmos with objects, maybe more so since the channels can have unlimited sounds assigned/mixed into them instead of co-located objects. Auro-3D is locked at 13.1 maximum, although if they had a Neural X type mixer they could do exactly as DTS:X has done.

AFAIK there are no Dts:X discs with objects, not that it doesn't support them, just they have not been coded on the releases to date.

According to filmmixer at AVS, it has 16 objects maximum. They are not typically used as Atmos objects per se, but assigned channels. You might be able to use them in a similar manner to colocated objects with Atmos (I think it only gets 18 objects in addition to the 7.1 bed channels; Cinema gets like 128 objects; home has to colocate objects beyond 18 or 36 or whatever it is).

For Dts:X it may use a partial up mix, a straight mix for the middle pair or they are just silent.

The 11-channel limit is what hampers DTS:X with all current AVRs including the 8500. If you use 5.1 + 6 overhead, it will use top middle DTS:X (or alternatively the VOG, but only for direct overhead sounds; it does mix fronts + VOG from what I read, although it might use it for FH+VOG). With the limit removed, you could have 7.1.6 with DTS:X or 5.1.6 + VOG + CH or 9.1.4. On the Trinnov, it will be able to use all 34 speakers with DTS:X when it gets the update, making it highly competitive with Atmos. The difference is that 7.1.4 soundtracks in DTS:X will still be able to use the extra channels since Neural X can create in-between channels just like you can externally with a Pro Logic processor or extra AVR (I extract Top Middle using two Onkyo-600ES Pro units).

I have no 4k discs, beyond a loan of Underworld's Blood Wars which is Atmos, but if Disney Atmos support objects then it likely works fine and would do even on a 7.x.8 setup without a problem as would any Atmos disc.

No, it won't. That's my whole point. It does NOT use objects as they're supposed to. It "locks" them in place and uses them as strictly channels. That means 7.1.4 and not ONE more single speaker will function in a true AVR. They will all be silent with Disney 7.1.4 soundtracks. The only way around it is to do what I do an use external extraction with Pro Logic type modules or AVRs. The 8500 will NEVER play 7.1.6 with Disney Atmos soundtracks as they are today or use a single wide for anything. There is no objects for those channels whatsoever. They are LOCKED objects (function like single channels with no extraction). Thank Disney for being evil. Filmmixer says he knows why they are doing it, but it would violate a confidentiality agreement to tell us so we have NO IDEA why Disney is doing it. All he would say is that it's not to say money/data by doing a single streaming/BD mix.

Disney and it's subsidiary companies like Marvel, Lucas or Pixar do not release Atmos/Dts:X on blurays.

They do Atmos 7.1.4 locked Atmos on 4K UHD Blu-Rays only. I'd just assume upmix 7.1 DTS as Neural X won't have that limitation once DTS:X Pro is more widely available. Actually with my extraction based setup, it doesn't matter either way. I cheat and get around all the problems.

Some 4K discs have gone on sale. I've gotten many for $10-15, which isn't too bad. I can rip the Atmos tracks from a 4K disc and put it on the 2K version or 3D version. I don't like paying $25-30 a disc, but I have done so for some 3D discs.

 

[Bookmark]

The problem is Disney doesn't use objects. They use "locked objects" in a 7.1.4 configuration. Essentially, that is the same as using channels only.

You not doing a particularly good job of selling the UHDs, if you are correct about Disney's output, that's probably most of the discs I would consider. I have somewhere in the order of around 2k dvds and probably north of 3-400 Blurays, half of which are already covered by the Dvds. Cost aside, I can't look at replacing that, if only because most of it isn't available yet. I still buy a good deal of Dvds because some films just don't merit even a bluray let alone 4K and a lot of what I want are 40-50+ year old films.

I am probably 5 to 10 years out from replacing my current setup, failures aside, and what Trinnov and similar can or can't do at 10K+, they are out of consideration. Short of me winning the lottery of course. Real 7.1.4, artificial 9.1.4 is more than enough for now. A potential still exists to move to 9.1.6, however the room is barely big enough for ones that are here already and the Wides are interesting but not entirely necessary.

Just watched both versions of Flatliners again and the new release does have more going on than I previously remember however, the original is surprisingly effective too, and that was probably only Dolby surround being from 1990, later converted to Dolby Digital.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Disney sux. I HATE that they’re making 7.1.4 “channel” prints. I even signed the petition for them to knock that $hit off and stop the soundbar mixes.
I’ve also seen filmixer talk a little about that, but he can’t elaborate much. Love the industry insight though. That’s fun.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the reason we often think Neural X does better than real Atmos is because of those "choices" to tone down the overhead speakers (Neural X doesn't care; it'll just throw it up there).

Thank you, DTS NeuralX!

I have personally concluded that I prefer NeuralX over DSU.

Guess I better not upgrade my pre-pro or firmware anymore due to that Dolby restriction.

 

[snakeeyes]

Thank you, DTS NeuralX!

I have personally concluded that I prefer NeuralX over DSU.

Guess I better not upgrade my pre-pro or firmware anymore due to that Dolby restriction.

That would be a messed up firmware update.

 

[VonMagnum]

I'm not aware of any updates that disable Neural X so far, but I did notice DTS Virtual X won't work with Dolby sources, not even Dolby Digital (you can get around most by using PCM, but Atmos is out of the question. It's a shame too as I was very impressed by Virtual X, much more so than bouncy speakers and without the added cost. It would be nice if you didn't have to disable all overheads just to get the option, though regardless (easier to compare faster).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That would be a messed up firmware update.

Don't know if I want to take any chances on any more updates.

Next thing you know we won't be able to use NeuralX on any DD sources.

Maybe I shouldn't be using too much NeuralX just in case. Don't want to miss it too much if that happens.

 

[snakeeyes]

Don't know if I want to take any chances on any more updates.

Next thing you know we won't be able to use NeuralX on any DD sources.

Maybe I shouldn't be using too much NeuralX just in case. Don't want to miss it too much if that happens.

Think Gene will tell us first.