BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Ride quality is a big one for me too. My truck rides like crap, but solid axles and 12 years will do that. Wife's Durango rides great. Better than I realized because most of the rentals I've had over the last few months haven't been as good. Granted, DCs roads aren't exactly smooth...

They did give me a 2019 Mustang GT and while the ride sucked, that sucker moved. Not as fast as Greg's new ride obviously...
Just to be clear, it's not terrible - it's not a live axle or leaf springs. In fact pretty decent, but I'm saying that the touring model I took for a test drive had, in fact, a better ride.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Spartan
I think Id like an AWD or FWD in my next car. Never had one but it might be nice to have the extra traction.
 
Montucky

Montucky

Full Audioholic
The older I get the more important ride quality comes. I love the performance of my Accord 2.0 EX-L, but I really wish I didn't go for $40/m savings for the extra cost of Touring model which comes with active suspension. As it is now it's step back from my Outback ride quality.
I hear ya. I used to be all about crotch rockets and sports cars, but now I drive a freaking luxobarge Volvo XC70 wagon. Boooooring, but If ride quality is important, give Volvo a serious look for your next car. Those Swedes have utterly perfected butt ergonomics. It's definitely not sporty (far from it in fact), but I really love that I can drive across the entire country non-stop except for gas and feel just fine at the end of the road, even with my bad back and usual aches. I've done the trek from Montana to South Texas and back (over 3300 miles RT) multiple times without stopping in a single hotel, so I know! Haha.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I think Id like an AWD or FWD in my next car. Never had one but it might be nice to have the extra traction.
FWD always has terrible handling, because the engine and the transmission will be transverse-mounted forward of the front axle, putting weight on the nose of the car, which causes sluggish handling and understeer. (If you're not aware, understeer means that the car resists turning in the direction you're trying to steer. Oversteer means the car over-reacts to steering input in the direction of the turn, and might spin.) And don't be fooled by AWD vehicles with transverse front engine architecture, which is what FWD cars use. AWD can mitigate the effect of transverse mounting, but it mostly doesn't.

Powerful FWD cars also suffer from a malady called torque steer. This is because the drive wheels also steer the car, and the torque the drivetrain applies to the steering mechanism causes pulling to the left or the right. The Chevy Impala V6 I had as a rental car this past weekend had very annoying torque steer.

Best chassis architectures (in order of merit, with examples):

1. Rear mid-engine. (Porsche Cayman/Boxster, Audi R8, most Ferarris, Lambos, BMW i8, etc.)
2. Front mid-engine. (Corvette, some mostly older BMWs, Porsche 928)
3. Rear engine (Porsche 911)
4. Front engine (engine placed over the front axle, mounted longitudinally, transmission is behind the axle; most RWD cars)
5. Transverse front engine (all FWD cars, many AWD cars)

AWD always improves performance and handling. For really powerful vehicles it's dumb not to have it. (Like a Corvette.) But AWD with transverse front-engine architecture is still a big compromise. I didn't realize how much until I bought an Audi S3.
 
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davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Spartan
FWD always has terrible handling, because the engine and the transmission will be transverse-mounted forward of the front axle, putting weight on the nose of the car, which causes sluggish handling and understeer. (If you're not aware, understeer means that the car resists turning in the direction you're trying to steer. Oversteer means the over-reacts to steering input in the direction of the turn, and might spin.) And don't be fooled by AWD vehicles with transverse front engine architecture, which is what FWD cars use. AWD can mitigate the effect of transverse mounting, but it mostly doesn't.

Powerful FWD cars also suffer from a malady called torque steer. This is because the drive wheels also steer the car, and the torque the drivetrain applies to the steering mechanism causes pulling to the left or the right. The Chevy Impala V6 I had as a rental car this past weekend had very annoying torque steer.

Best chassis architectures (in order of merit, with examples):

1. Rear mid-engine. (Porsche Cayman/Boxster, Audi R8, most Ferarris, Lambos, BMW i8, etc.)
2. Front mid-engine. (Corvette, some mostly older BMWs, Porsche 928)
3. Rear engine (Porsche 911)
4. Front engine (engine placed over the front axle, mounted longitudinally, transmission is behind the axle; most RWD cars)
5. Transverse front engine (all FWD cars, many AWD cars)

AWD always improves performance and handling. For really powerful vehicles it's dumb not to have it. (Like a Corvette.) But AWD with transverse front-engine architecture is still a big compromise. I didn't realize how much until I bought an Audi S3.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I meant 4wd not FrontWD (I have that now) but it is nice to know about the AWDs limitations. Thanks again
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
FWD always has terrible handling, because the engine and the transmission will be transverse-mounted forward of the front axle, putting weight on the nose of the car, which causes sluggish handling and understeer. (If you're not aware, understeer means that the car resists turning in the direction you're trying to steer. Oversteer means the over-reacts to steering input in the direction of the turn, and might spin.) And don't be fooled by AWD vehicles with transverse front engine architecture, which is what FWD cars use. AWD can mitigate the effect of transverse mounting, but it mostly doesn't.
Civic Type R, Fiat 500 Abrath, Fiesta ST, Accord, Merc GLA, Audi A3... Should I continue?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Civic Type R, Fiat 500 Abrath, Fiesta ST, Accord, Merc GLA, Audi A3... Should I continue?
I haven't driven every one of those cars, but the Accord, the GLA, and the A3 all understeer and feel like crap on curvy roads. They work ok in a straight line or on gentle curves. Otherwise, as Lucy would say, Blech. Just like with speakers, you can't fight physics.

You can play tricks, and AWD is a nice trick for mitigating understeer. Another trick is making the front tires wider than the rears; the Audi RS3 version with the special suspension - which is just a version of the A3 - does that. But in the end you still have a car with a lousy architecture. It may otherwise be a very nice car, but tights curves will always reveal their weakness.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I hear ya. I used to be all about crotch rockets and sports cars, but now I drive a freaking luxobarge Volvo XC70 wagon. Boooooring, but If ride quality is important, give Volvo a serious look for your next car. Those Swedes have utterly perfected butt ergonomics. It's definitely not sporty (far from it in fact),but I really love that I can drive across the entire country non-stop except for gas and feel just fine at the end of the road, even with my bad back and usual aches. I've done the trek from Montana to South Texas and back (over 3300 miles RT) multiple times without stopping in a single hotel, so I know! Haha.
I still prefer a fun to drive car...acceleration, cornering, braking, instead of a great riding car, but a flatout sports car, I wouldn't last 2 weeks. My brother in law has a 911, and my golf buddy has a Vette...beautiful machines, but just getting in and out of them was a chore for me....much less a bone jarring bump in the road.

The 1st car I ever bought myself...'83 Volvo 240 GL...that's when Volvo had it going, those were well built cars with thru Euro steering...I trust they have overcome any lingering Ford influence.
FWD always has terrible handling, because the engine and the transmission will be transverse-mounted forward of the front axle, putting weight on the nose of the car, which causes sluggish handling and understeer. (If you're not aware, understeer means that the car resists turning in the direction you're trying to steer. Oversteer means the over-reacts to steering input in the direction of the turn, and might spin.) And don't be fooled by AWD vehicles with transverse front engine architecture, which is what FWD cars use. AWD can mitigate the effect of transverse mounting, but it mostly doesn't.

Powerful FWD cars also suffer from a malady called torque steer. This is because the drive wheels also steer the car, and the torque the drivetrain applies to the steering mechanism causes pulling to the left or the right. The Chevy Impala V6 I had as a rental car this past weekend had very annoying torque steer.

Best chassis architectures (in order of merit, with examples):

1. Rear mid-engine. (Porsche Cayman/Boxster, Audi R8, most Ferarris, Lambos, BMW i8, etc.)
2. Front mid-engine. (Corvette, some mostly older BMWs, Porsche 928)
3. Rear engine (Porsche 911)
4. Front engine (engine placed over the front axle, mounted longitudinally, transmission is behind the axle; most RWD cars)
5. Transverse front engine (all FWD cars, many AWD cars)

AWD always improves performance and handling. For really powerful vehicles it's dumb not to have it. (Like a Corvette.) But AWD with transverse front-engine architecture is still a big compromise. I didn't realize how much until I bought an Audi S3.
FWD cars have their place, but FWD performance cars are largely shunned by driving enthusiasts.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I haven't driven every one of those cars, but the Accord, the GLA, and the A3 all understeer and feel like crap on curvy roads. They work ok in a straight line or on gentle curves. Otherwise, as Lucy would say, Blech. Just like with speakers, you can't fight physics.

You can play tricks, and AWD is a nice trick for mitigating understeer. Another trick is making the front tires wider than the rears; the Audi RS3 version with the special suspension - which is just a version of the A3 - does that. But in the end you still have a car with a lousy architecture. It may otherwise be a very nice car, but tights curves will always reveal their weakness.
AWD is beneficial for many things, but not necessarily dry handling because of a thing called "polar moment of inertia". This, along with poor torque split, is why almost all AWD cars understeer quite a bit at the limit.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I haven't driven every one of those cars, but the Accord, the GLA, and the A3 all understeer and feel like crap on curvy roads. They work ok in a straight line or on gentle curves. Otherwise, as Lucy would say, Blech. Just like with speakers, you can't fight physics.

You can play tricks, and AWD is a nice trick for mitigating understeer. Another trick is making the front tires wider than the rears; the Audi RS3 version with the special suspension - which is just a version of the A3 - does that. But in the end you still have a car with a lousy architecture. It may otherwise be a very nice car, but tights curves will always reveal their weakness.
Looks like you're not entirely wrong on account of A3,
from https://www.autozeitung.de/audi-a3-sportback-bmw-118i-kompaktklasse-test-171993.html#fahrdynamik

On the handling course, the Audi is very agile. Change of direction is easy for him, the skilfully tuned ESP holds discreetly in the background. Who presses the ESP button, raises the control threshold of the system and can look forward to well-dosed load change reactions, which - skilfully provoked - the Audi A3 Sportback 1.8 TFSI even easier around the corner. However, the picture tarnishes a comparatively imprecise steering and strong body movements, which are at the expense of accuracy. Even the somewhat doughy brake pedal feeling bothers something, although there is nothing to complain about the braking power.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
AWD is beneficial for many things, but not necessarily dry handling because of a thing called "polar moment of inertia". This, along with poor torque split, is why almost all AWD cars understeer quite a bit at the limit.
Oh really? Why don’t you explain to us all how AWD affects polar moment of inertia?

Most performance cars with AWD have a torque split that’s rear biased. As for almost all AWD cars understeering at the limit, how would you know that? Does a 911 with AWD understeer at the limit? Or a BMW 3-Series? Or even an X5?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Looks like you're not entirely wrong on account of A3,
from https://www.autozeitung.de/audi-a3-sportback-bmw-118i-kompaktklasse-test-171993.html#fahrdynamik

On the handling course, the Audi is very agile. Change of direction is easy for him, the skilfully tuned ESP holds discreetly in the background. Who presses the ESP button, raises the control threshold of the system and can look forward to well-dosed load change reactions, which - skilfully provoked - the Audi A3 Sportback 1.8 TFSI even easier around the corner. However, the picture tarnishes a comparatively imprecise steering and strong body movements, which are at the expense of accuracy. Even the somewhat doughy brake pedal feeling bothers something, although there is nothing to complain about the braking power.
I know a lot about the A3, since I'm judging them based on my S3, which is just a duded-up A3. The 2016 S3 has precise steering, good braking feel and power, 40/60 F/R AWD, and it still understeers a lot on a curvy road. I should have test-driven it on curvy roads, but I was so impressed around town that I fell for it and bought one. Just talking about the understeer is making that M2 Competition sound better.
 
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2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I think it's fine for minivans.
I once had a 63 mile (each way) driveway to parking lot commute, and bought a 4 cyl Toyota Tercel...FWD with a manual trans. Got me thru the '93 and '95 nor'easter...our RWD bimmer wasn't trust worthy to get us to the train station during the snow storm.

That thing served me well...when we moved down south I decided to keep it....lo and behold...my mechanic bought from us with 130k+ miles for his kid in HS.

Of course, that's totally different animal from a performance car.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Oh really? Why don’t you explain to us all how AWD affects polar moment of inertia?

Most performance cars with AWD have a torque split that’s rear biased. As for almost all AWD cars understeering at the limit, how would you know that? Does a 911 with AWD understeer at the limit? Or a BMW 3-Series? Or even an X5?
Yup. Simple physics.

Polar moment of inertia describes the effect imposed by how weight is distributed along a body's longitudinal axis. In the case of a car chassis, it goes beyond simple expressions of weight distribution (50/50, 60/40 etc).

Imagine, if you will two dumb bells of the same mass. One has a really thick shank and small ends. The other has a thin shank and big ends. The dumb bell with the thin shank and big ends will have a higher polar moment of inertia because it will require more turning force (torque) to initiate a change in direction to overcome the inertia of its masses.

So how does this apply to an AWD car? The extra weight at the ends of the car (not the very end, but at the axle which is pretty far from the car's centre of mass or balancing point) to accommodate another transaxle increases the longitudinal distribution of weight. So the turning forces needed to change direction are proportionally higher -- the exact opposite of that which occurs in a mid engine car with a low polar moment of inertia.

But wait, there's more...

As a vehicle turns, it is subjected to centrifugal force. Many think this force acts on the whole car but actually it acts according to where the various masses lie along the chassis. So more weight, the greater centrifugal force acting on that part of the car. Hence more slip.

Your assertion that AWD cars have rear biased torque slip is incorrect. Audi, Porsche, BMW, and MB (except for the A and B classes) do. Toyota, Nissan, Volvo and many others do not. Subaru has a fixed 50/50 torque split in their (now gone) manual transmission cars and a variable 60/40 split in their CVT equipped models. Some AWD systems are very front biased, only sending torque back to the rear when the front wheels slip as one approaches the limits of tire adhesion.

Don't ask me about North American AWD cars... I don't track/buy them and they are all over the map.

Now let's take an extreme example... the Porsche 911. AWD versions of this car understeer far more than RWD versions. This is because the drive forces being transmitted through the rear wheels, combined with the high slip angles of the rear wheels (which don't turn, or at least not very much) can easily exceed available traction. Physics wields a heavy hand and centrifugal forces acting on that heavier rear end, cause the car to oversteer until the Porsche Active Stability Management (PASM) system kicks in.

In early 911 days, when the chassis had a really weird distribution of weight, you could spin the car in a very gentle turn by abruptly lifting off the throttle. Bringing the engine and transaxle closer to the centre of the chassis reduced drop-throttle oversteer. The introduction of AWD to the line placed about 120 lbs or so over the front axle and, surprise, surprise, the car when from displaying terminal oversteer to light/moderate understeer at its handling limit.

Since that time, the introduction of PASM has improved handling a lot by applying asymmetric breaking to keep under steer and oversteer in check. But PASM cannot change the laws of physics, just mask them until the point where the limits of Tire adhesion are reached. At that point, Sir Issac Newton takes over full control and the car behaves according to its masses, the forces being exerted on it and various laws of motion.

Also, keep in mind that passive restraint systems are mostly designed around a front end collision. So manufacturers *purposely* dial in at lest a hint of understeer into the suspension. Doing so appeals to most of the intuitive responses of drivers in a panic situation.

Not many people would want to oversteer, lose control, and slide sideways into a telephone pole or oncoming car... but losing control, understeering, and hitting these objects head-on, with air bags, seals belt tensioner and several feet of crumple zone makes such accidents "survivable" in many cases.

If you've been following my other posts, you might remember me saying that manufacturers use stats for maximum advantage. Weight distribution is no different.

BMW's Ultimate Driving Machine claim of the 80s and 90s was based on their claim that the 50/50 weight distribution of their cars gives them an advantage. This has *some* merit, but doesn't influence things as much as where, and how much, mass lies along the longitudinal axis of the chassis.

Porsche bragged about their 911's "low polar moment of inertia" in ads of the era. The didn't mention that the weight was concentrated mostly in the back, making the 911s of that era about as stable as a thrown hammer when the limit of adhesion of the rear tires were reached.

The same thing can happen in a FWD car when it all goes wrong. I've seen those cars spin in all manner of ways as the driver struggles to take control back from Sir Issac. It's all a matter of inertia, though manufacturers generally dial in so much understeer into the chassis of inexpensive FWD cars to make them relatively stable even in the hands of an idiot.

Sorry for the long reply but I find physics rather fascinating and can drone on a bit. I have also raced in the past and authored a few technical books on cars (don't ask titles, I'm not selling and finished that business many years ago).

Hope this helps explain the importance of mass distribution on handling.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Yup. Simple physics.

Polar moment of inertia describes the effect imposed by how weight is distributed along a body's longitudinal axis. In the case of a car chassis, it goes beyond simple expressions of weight distribution (50/50, 60/40 etc).

Imagine, if you will two dumb bells of the same mass. One has a really thick shank and small ends. The other has a thin shank and big ends. The dumb bell with the thin shank and big ends will have a higher polar moment of inertia because it will require more turning force (torque) to initiate a change in direction to overcome the inertia of its masses.
So far, so good.

So how does this apply to an AWD car? The extra weight at the ends of the car (not the very end, but at the axle which is pretty far from the car's centre of mass or balancing point) to accommodate another transaxle increases the longitudinal distribution of weight. So the turning forces needed to change direction are proportionally higher -- the exact opposite of that which occurs in a mid engine car with a low polar moment of inertia.
For one thing, you're confusing moment of inertia with polar moment of inertia. They're different. Second, you're focusing on the effects of the weight of the AWD drivetrain additions, while not focusing on the effects from even power distribution on four tire patches rather than two. The front wheels applying drive torque have an effect that overwhelms the minor weight difference.

But wait, there's more...
I hope so.

As a vehicle turns, it is subjected to centrifugal force. Many think this force acts on the whole car but actually it acts according to where the various masses lie along the chassis. So more weight, the greater centrifugal force acting on that part of the car. Hence more slip.

Your assertion that AWD cars have rear biased torque slip is incorrect. Audi, Porsche, BMW, and MB (except for the A and B classes) do. Toyota, Nissan, Volvo and many others do not. Subaru has a fixed 50/50 torque split in their (now gone) manual transmission cars and a variable 60/40 split in their CVT equipped models. Some AWD systems are very front biased, only sending torque back to the rear when the front wheels slip as one approaches the limits of tire adhesion.
I said performance AWD cars have rear-biased torque distribution. Toyotas, Nissans, and Volvos often, but not always, have transverse-engine layouts anyway, and as I mentioned, they suck.

Don't ask me about North American AWD cars... I don't track/buy them and they are all over the map.
There's aren't very many interesting coupes or sedans with AWD anyway (except Cadillacs), and domestic SUVs don't count.

Now let's take an extreme example... the Porsche 911. AWD versions of this car understeer far more than RWD versions. This is because the drive forces being transmitted through the rear wheels, combined with the high slip angles of the rear wheels (which don't turn, or at least not very much) can easily exceed available traction. Physics wields a heavy hand and centrifugal forces acting on that heavier rear end, cause the car to oversteer until the Porsche Active Stability Management (PASM) system kicks in.

In early 911 days, when the chassis had a really weird distribution of weight, you could spin the car in a very gentle turn by abruptly lifting off the throttle. Bringing the engine and transaxle closer to the centre of the chassis reduced drop-throttle oversteer. The introduction of AWD to the line placed about 120 lbs or so over the front axle and, surprise, surprise, the car when from displaying terminal oversteer to light/moderate understeer at its handling limit.

Since that time, the introduction of PASM has improved handling a lot by applying asymmetric breaking to keep under steer and oversteer in check. But PASM cannot change the laws of physics, just mask them until the point where the limits of Tire adhesion are reached. At that point, Sir Issac Newton takes over full control and the car behaves according to its masses, the forces being exerted on it and various laws of motion.

Also, keep in mind that passive restraint systems are mostly designed around a front end collision. So manufacturers *purposely* dial in at lest a hint of understeer into the suspension. Doing so appeals to most of the intuitive responses of drivers in a panic situation.

Not many people would want to oversteer, lose control, and slide sideways into a telephone pole or oncoming car... but losing control, understeering, and hitting these objects head-on, with air bags, seals belt tensioner and several feet of crumple zone makes such accidents "survivable" in many cases.

If you've been following my other posts, you might remember me saying that manufacturers use stats for maximum advantage. Weight distribution is no different.
First of all, you've mixed up your acronyms. PASM is an electrically adjustable hydraulic shock absorber system. You're referring to yaw control, which Porsche calls PSM, or Porsche Stability Management. It does work through the antilock braking system by applying braking on each corner independently when it detects speed differences between the wheels. The main point you've missed is that AWD multiplies the tire patch power application area by 1.75-2.0 (depending on the F/R section widths) and divides the power among the four contact patches. On a 911 this has much more effect than a ~5% increase in weight distribution on the front wheels. (Not all of the AWD mechanism is in the front axle. There is a center differential, among other things.)

BMW's Ultimate Driving Machine claim of the 80s and 90s was based on their claim that the 50/50 weight distribution of their cars gives them an advantage. This has *some* merit, but doesn't influence things as much as where, and how much, mass lies along the longitudinal axis of the chassis.
You're making that up. BMW's often do have a 50/50 weight distribution, but that's not the basis of their marketing message.

Porsche bragged about their 911's "low polar moment of inertia" in ads of the era. The didn't mention that the weight was concentrated mostly in the back, making the 911s of that era about as stable as a thrown hammer when the limit of adhesion of the rear tires were reached.
Again, you've mixed up polar moment of inertia with moment of inertia. And old 911s had skinny rear tires and no PSM. Modern RWD 911s don't spin, unless you're an idiot. And the latest 911 generations have been pushing engines a bit forward in the chassis to improve weight distribution.

The same thing can happen in a FWD car when it all goes wrong. I've seen those cars spin in all manner of ways as the driver struggles to take control back from Sir Issac. It's all a matter of inertia, though manufacturers generally dial in so much understeer into the chassis of inexpensive FWD cars to make them relatively stable even in the hands of an idiot.
Not in my experience. They just understeer. Modern FWD cars with yaw control won't spin unless you turn it off.

Sorry for the long reply but I find physics rather fascinating and can drone on a bit. I have also raced in the past and authored a few technical books on cars (don't ask titles, I'm not selling and finished that business many years ago).

Hope this helps explain the importance of mass distribution on handling.
I think you need a refresher course.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
So far, so good.



For one thing, you're confusing moment of inertia with polar moment of inertia. They're different. Second, you're focusing on the effects of the weight of the AWD drivetrain additions, while not focusing on the effects from even power distribution on four tire patches rather than two. The front wheels applying drive torque have an effect that overwhelms the minor weight difference.



I hope so.



I said performance AWD cars have rear-biased torque distribution. Toyotas, Nissans, and Volvos often, but not always, have transverse-engine layouts anyway, and as I mentioned, they suck.



There's aren't very many interesting coupes or sedans with AWD anyway (except Cadillacs),and domestic SUVs don't count.



First of all, you've mixed up your acronyms. PASM is an electrically adjustable hydraulic shock absorber system. You're referring to yaw control, which Porsche calls PSM, or Porsche Stability Management. It does work through the antilock braking system by applying braking on each corner independently when it detects speed differences between the wheels. The main point you've missed is that AWD multiplies the tire patch power application area by 1.75-2.0 (depending on the F/R section widths) and divides the power among the four contact patches. On a 911 this has much more effect than a ~5% increase in weight distribution on the front wheels. (Not all of the AWD mechanism is in the front axle. There is a center differential, among other things.)



You're making that up. BMW's often do have a 50/50 weight distribution, but that's not the basis of their marketing message.



Again, you've mixed up polar moment of inertia with moment of inertia. And old 911s had skinny rear tires and no PSM. Modern RWD 911s don't spin, unless you're an idiot. And the latest 911 generations have been pushing engines a bit forward in the chassis to improve weight distribution.



Not in my experience. They just understeer. Modern FWD cars with yaw control won't spin unless you turn it off.



I think you need a refresher course.
Re: PSM vs PASM. Ok wrong acronym. I guess I'm just an air cooled guy in a water cooled world!

Re: Traction. None of this changes how a friction circle works. When you're steering and putting power into the same contact patch, lateral load limits will be less. Why? The Tire only has so much traction to give.

Example: Easy to rotate a RWD car while spinning the tires. The traction used for acceleration leaves nothing for rear lateral grip. Basic car control stuff.

Re: Polar moment of inertia, moment of inertia. Splitting hairs.

Re: Lying about BMW's emphasis on 50/50 weight distribution. If you're going to call somebody a liar, aircon, at least do a google search first (BMW + ad + 50/50). Otherwise, you come off looking like an idiot.


BMW is still using this line as the focal point of their advertising, which started in the 80s. How do I know this? Cause I was there, son. I could find a link for that too, but you'd only ignore it.

Re: Old 911s and narrow tires. They didn't weigh 3400-3500 lbs either, Irv.

A 70s 911S was about 2400 lbs. Those tires had about the same size contact patches as a new, heavier watercooled Porsche on wider tires. So this begs the question why newer Porsches have higher lateral grip than older ones. Lots of reasons, but tire compounding is a big part of it.

As you probably know, tire size doesn't equate to contact patch area... unless it's flat. The real issues are vehicle weight and inflation. Club racers and autocrossers fine tune their car's handling through inflation adjustments. Basic stuff, with one or two psi capable of making a bigger change in handling than 5-10 mm of cross ectional width.

Don't take my word for it. Read Carrol Smith's "Prepare to Win", Fred Puhn's "How to Make your Car Handle", Jay Lamm's "All Wheel Drive Handbook" or Skip Barber's "Going Faster!". I could name others on my bookshelf, but start with those. They're really good.

Re: FWD cars with yaw control. Yes, they will spin and in very dramatic fashion. Yaw control systems only work to a point. They do not and cannot overcome the laws of physics. Once the car starts to rota fast enough, yaw control can't stop it. If things worked as you suggested, we'd never see rice rockets slide sideways into telephone poles. Yet, it happens all the time.

It sounds like you've never been on a track, much less competed on one. Maybe you read other books. That's OK too. This stuff is not everyone's thing.
 
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GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I could go on debating with you point by point, but this one statement tells me it's futile.
I might enjoy the debate more than you.

Now is a pretty good time to quit. I could tell you how to dial-out the understeer on your S3, but you're smart enough to figure that out on your own now, aren't you?

Just don't buy the M2 and complain about its ride!
 
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