Let ,em be large!

[Russdawg1]

Well two 15" "subs" in the speakers, one 16" sub and two 18" mid bass modules?

I don’t see how that could possibly be any better lol!

Two 18” midbass modules, a PB16, and the dual 15” “subs” all playing the same frequencies???

I would guess right around 50-90hz, just about everything shakes in his house, or there’s no bass cause they are all out of phase cancelling each other out lol!

 

[lovinthehd]

I don’t see how that could possibly be any better lol!

Two 18” midbass modules, a PB16, and the dual 15” “subs” all playing the same frequencies???

I would guess right around 50-90hz, just about everything shakes in his house, or there’s no bass cause they are all out of phase cancelling each other out lol!

LOL wasn't thinking better but just wanted to clarify the "count". The sub and mid bass modules are corner loaded to boot. I think I see a minidsp in the future....

 

[TLS Guy]

The OP is correct. We went for years without subs, most of my audio career in fact. Subs started to make their appearance around mid eighties, even then they were not usual. And no, we were not blowing up woofers wholesale, in fact rarely.

Subwoofers are very much an American obsession.

Actually as I have said many times, any speaker worth its salt should be played full range. This is somewhat of an issue with ported subs in that the driver decouples from the box below tuning and there is useless cone excursion, that does not happen with other forms of loading. So a high pass filter at that point is reasonable. The best approach is to supplement the speakers around F3 with a sub.

What I hear with most systems I encounter is subs turned up far to high and reproduction miles away from realistic. The way I see subs used gets us further away from the realistic reproduction of music. It is no accident that individuals who listen largely to classical music shy away from subs.

You certainly should always audition speakers without a sub. The sound should always be nicely balanced. Crossing speakers over to a sub using an off the shelf crossover. That means in virtually all systems it will be the wrong crossover. Its no different really from trying to build a decent speaker using an off the shelf crossover from Parts Express. You know were that gets you!

The advice of a lot of UK speaker manufacturers is not to crossover and just supplement with subs. That is usually the best approach.
I firmly believe that that the best systems do not use subs, but present a full range balanced and coherent sound. For the HT environment there does have to be a way to mix in the LFE signal. This is not possible with a purely passive speaker. That is another reason to move away from purely passive speakers.

Unfortunately that type of system properly implemented is rare which is a pity, as the results are truly astonishing.

 

[Russdawg1]

The OP is correct. We went for years without subs, most of my audio career in fact. Subs started to make their appearance around mid eighties, even then they were not usual. And no, we were not blowing up woofers wholesale, in fact rarely.

Subwoofers are very much an American obsession.

Actually as I have said many times, any speaker worth its salt should be played full range. This is somewhat of an issue with ported subs in that the driver decouples from the box below tuning and there is useless cone excursion, that does not happen with other forms of loading. So a high pass filter at that point is reasonable. The best approach is to supplement the speakers around F3 with a sub.

What I hear with most systems I encounter is subs turned up far to high and reproduction miles away from realistic. The way I see subs used gets us further away from the realistic reproduction of music. It is no accident that individuals who listen largely to classical music shy away from subs.

You certainly should always audition speakers without a sub. The sound should always be nicely balanced. Crossing speakers over to a sub using an off the shelf crossover. That means in virtually all systems it will be the wrong crossover. Its no different really from trying to build a decent speaker using an off the shelf crossover from Parts Express. You know were that gets you!

The advice of a lot of UK speaker manufacturers is not to crossover and just supplement with subs. That is usually the best approach.
I firmly believe that that the best systems do not use subs, but present a full range balanced and coherent sound. For the HT environment there does have to be a way to mix in the LFE signal. This is not possible with a purely passive speaker. That is another reason to move away from purely passive speakers.

Unfortunately that type of system properly implemented is rare which is a pity, as the results are truly astonishing.

So you agree with the OP that we should all run our towers full range along with the subwoofer running as full range as possible (300hz?) so we all get a hump from like 50-200hz?

I’m a little confused now. I thought the target was flat(ish) response.

I agree that not all speakers need to be crossed at 80hz, but it’s the standard for a reason, because it fits most. But when you start getting down into the 40’s or 30’s, towers start declining their output (Not in the OP’s case with dual 15” woofers...) right? So you have to cross the subwoofer around there to get the “full range” of the sound. Unless I missed something.

It’s whatever. Audio is subjective! I don’t even know why I’m commenting at this point...

 

[viseral audio]

want to thank everybody for their opinion, just wanted to say don't be afraid of trying to run your front speakers full range if they contribute a substantial amount of bass, remember back before it was commonplace to have subwoofers in every home.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

want to thank everybody for their opinion, just wanted to say don't be afraid of trying to run your front speakers full range if they contribute a substantial amount of bass, remember back before it was commonplace to have subwoofers in every home.

I used to own both the DefTech BP7000SC and BP7001SC. I used the LFE/Sub inputs on these towers. They could shake my house like an earthquake without any other external subs.

So I think I have a good idea on your perspective of the BP2000.

But I don't think we can put speakers with built-in powered or ACTIVE woofers in the same category as towers with PASSIVE woofers.

Active woofers in speakers like the BP2000 and BP7000 (1800W) are more like subwoofers. They are kind of like bookshelf speakers sitting atop subwoofers, but are put together in a single box.

I've owned Phil3, Orion 3.2.1, Revel Salon2, and B&W 802 D2 tower and their bass do NOT have the same output capability as the Def Tech BP2000, BP7000, and BP7001.

And most $3K passive towers don't have the same bass output as these bigger Def Tech towers.

 

[TLS Guy]

So you agree with the OP that we should all run our towers full range along with the subwoofer running as full range as possible (300hz?) so we all get a hump from like 50-200hz?

I’m a little confused now. I thought the target was flat(ish) response.

I agree that not all speakers need to be crossed at 80hz, but it’s the standard for a reason, because it fits most. But when you start getting down into the 40’s or 30’s, towers start declining their output (Not in the OP’s case with dual 15” woofers...) right? So you have to cross the subwoofer around there to get the “full range” of the sound. Unless I missed something.

It’s whatever. Audio is subjective! I don’t even know why I’m commenting at this point...

No that is not what I said. The sub should not run full range. I said it should just gently supplement the speakers stating around their F3. Brining in subs at a frequency of F3 + 50% is a good place to start. In a well designed system there is actually not much for a sub to do in music, just LFE effects. In my view miss use of subs is probably the biggest quality spoiler around today.

The point is that decent drivers will not be harmed running them full range.

 

[PENG]

want to thank everybody for their opinion, just wanted to say don't be afraid of trying to run your front speakers full range if they contribute a substantial amount of bass, remember back before it was commonplace to have subwoofers in every home.

Agreed, but time changes everything. Many people are still shifting gear happily and smoothly, but even them, could do it even more smoothly with good automatic transmissions. The thing is, some have in room bass response by virtual of their speakers, rooms and placement options, some don't, and for those who are so lucky, their now have options, i.e. subwoofers and bass management.

 

[PENG]

The point is that decent drivers will not be harmed running them full range.

Agreed, but only as long as they don't interact with subs nicely, but you covered that in your post already.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

decent drivers will not be harmed running them full range.

If bass-heads are not playing 20Hz signals at 110dB through them with 500W amps?

 

[ryanosaur]

want to thank everybody for their opinion, just wanted to say don't be afraid of trying to run your front speakers full range if they contribute a substantial amount of bass, remember back before it was commonplace to have subwoofers in every home.

Now that I can get behind more agreeably. Our rigs are not plug’n’play, and require some minimal knowledge base to get decent performance from. I’m still learning. And the cautious experimentation I do is helpful... including softly running that 18hz test tone through my system and realizing my BMRs were still participating even though I have them small/xo @ 60Hz.

 

[ryanosaur]

If bass-heads are not playing 20Hz signals at 110dB through them with 500W amps?

Ha... it’s almost like you knew! But more like 40dB. I don’t wanna replace any drivers.

 

[2channel lover]

I have been brainwashed in setting up front speakers as small if you use subs. lately I set them up as large and sent bass to both front speakers and multiple subs , granted my front speakers are very capable of handling bass, The speakers where getting full signal which the speaker designer intended and the vocals sound fuller all the way down to more even bass. If we are to run multiple subs to even out response then why don't we use all the bass we can get from our front channels as well that's two more sources. just wondered how many out there could benefit from using speakers full range the way they were intended?

There's enough subjectivity, hearing, room gain, etc. that could be in play here.

My previous mains (B&W 804M) which I still have btw...I played these speakers 2.0 for 20 yrs....mostly 2 ch music. They were never really strong on the lowend but had enough for most music...or so I thought.

When I upgraded the system to what I have now...the subs arrived before the new mains did...in fact everything arrived before the new mains...so for the 1st time I played the B&Ws 2.1 or in this case 2.2. Night and day difference...to the good.

The Salks are rated F3/33hz...when they arrived. I played them 2.0 for a week or so just to see what they were like...stronger bass than the B&Ws 2.0, but after hearing the B&Ws 2.1 I knew there would be an improvement...I love the midbass of the Salks so I tried XO @ 60hz and 80...I could go either way, but I've left them at 60 and it's not even close...2.1 is far more live-like than 2.0 and the subs are cruising along, volume knob is shy of 12 noon.

From my experience.

 

[Danzilla31]

Danzilla might have some competition!
I said it before... @viseral audio, if you've got your ears happy and you've taken measurements, sweet. Very happy for it! I would love to see them (the measurements, not your happy ears!)... I'm gonna do the same when my floorstanders come in! Promise.

Sheeeeuuuuut he can win this shootout I was watching a movie the other day down really low while my folks are here visiting and those PB 4000's were still vibrating all the pictures in there room. I tried to look her very sorry for what I'd done But seriously 2 of those monsters is all I think I'll ever need!

 

[03kbredfire]

I have been brainwashed in setting up front speakers as small if you use subs. lately I set them up as large and sent bass to both front speakers and multiple subs , granted my front speakers are very capable of handling bass, The speakers where getting full signal which the speaker designer intended and the vocals sound fuller all the way down to more even bass. If we are to run multiple subs to even out response then why don't we use all the bass we can get from our front channels as well that's two more sources. just wondered how many out there could benefit from using speakers full range the way they were intended?

I have always heard/read the same. I, like you, have not agreed with that philosophy. I run mine as large and the system sounds much better for the effort. Sometimes less is more, if built right, more is more. Beyond more, there seems a better cohesive sound throughout setup. As I run an older system, I can only choose one crossover point. My system has enough good bass in the rest of setup to allow a 60 Hz cross to eliminate most boominess from room gain.

 

[viseral audio]

Well, aside from the towers he indicated the "subs are svspb16 ultra and turbo sound tse118s"

The Turbo Sound TSE118 I wasn't familiar with but appears to be more like concert bass bins http://www.kirsch-akustik.de/downloads/tse118.pdf.

I'm curious how these all go together, too.

lovinthehd thanks for your interest the tse118,s are concert bass reinforcement speakers and they make very a very quick hard hitting bass that hits you ,they have a very light driver compared to a much slower heavier driver in a subwoofer, the Tse118 is noted for its very low compression and distortion yet high velocity production of sound, they handle frequencies of 40hz to as high as 400hz mine are crossed anywhere from 80hz to 120hz depending on setup.they handle the bulk of bass range and the svs pbultra16 along with the deftechpb2000 ,s go low enough to fill the bottom end.I have played meticulously with distance(phase) setup for all to work together, its not uncommon to listen to music in the higher 90 to 100dbrange and the bass is effortless to the mid 120,s.

 

[everettT]

I can foresee hearing damage

 

[viseral audio]

I made a living running a chain saw for 35yrs. to late for that

 

[lovinthehd]

lovinthehd thanks for your interest the tse118,s are concert bass reinforcement speakers and they make very a very quick hard hitting bass that hits you ,they have a very light driver compared to a much slower heavier driver in a subwoofer, the Tse118 is noted for its very low compression and distortion yet high velocity production of sound, they handle frequencies of 40hz to as high as 400hz mine are crossed anywhere from 80hz to 120hz depending on setup.they handle the bulk of bass range and the svs pbultra16 along with the deftechpb2000 ,s go low enough to fill the bottom end.I have played meticulously with distance(phase) setup for all to work together, its not uncommon to listen to music in the higher 90 to 100dbrange and the bass is effortless to the mid 120,s.

By "crossed" you mean you're using the built in low pass filter on each sub, what settings on each? How did you adjust delay/phase on each?

 

[viseral audio]

using distance setting in Yamaha avr for separate subs, use rew to get best combined response , lately have front set to large and extra bass which sends 80hz and below to subs in two channel listening, or sometimes set front to small and subs to 120hz in avr. I have a mini dsp but haven't set up yet because then I have no way to deal with LF.