Denon AVC-8500H is it D.O.A. or a Bug in the software?

[andyblackcat]

He's in America I assume so it is really only 9 or earlier, depending upon which part. It's us that are the odd ones.

Still glad to hear it's working. That must be a relief.

It's odd isn't it, same thing less parts and it cost more.

Yes but there is the other issue that I'll get a picture or better still a video as the video output still has some sort of issues with switching to a purple a red or other colours when using VHS, video signal, this happened with the Marantz so something queer with video processing that doesn't like when VHS is visually rewind. Also the video signal drops-out as the Marantz/Denon, thinks the video-signal isn't present anymore on the Video mode on the receiver so it goes to a blank screen and often takes or has very long lag time before it gets a lock on the video signal.on the

With laserdisc to DVD, HD-DVD, bluray, UHD, I not noticed any video dropout.

This wouldn't happen any other AVR of the past its all this digital software videoing algorithm processing one the chip. I may have to hard-wire video output from VHS to the tv video input as it seems to be getting popular all over again and can't have video dropouts. especially with The Hunt For Red October on VHS, sure the DVD is okay.

 

[Bookmark]

Just out of curiosity do you have the up scaler enabled on the Denon? It is on by default I think. Normally I have turned that stuff off and just run direct passthru. For the Yamaha I also had to set the Mode 1 for 4K, the default was Mode 2, which limits the 4k output to 50/60Hz 4.2.0.

Some of the settings are on P180 of the 6012 manual.

 

[PENG]

I haven't heard of reliability getting worse with Denon/Marantz products over the last decade or so. I honestly don't count the # of transistors in a product and live in fear that they will fail as a result sometime down the road. I owned a Denon AVP processor for 10 years without incident in the past and that was a very complex product with LOTS of transistors, including Class A bias. Transistors are pretty damn reliable these days as long as you control heat.

I do own an SR8012 and it gets damn hot just sitting in idle so that does give me some concern but we shall see. Eco-auto does help out substantially and you just have to make sure you let your equipment have plenty of ventilation.

Dedicated power amps are NOT without their issues either. After a couple of decades they often need to be re-capped since electrolytics dry up and fail overtime.

Denon, Marantz and Yamaha has had steady reliability since I've been using their products for nearly 3 decades. The only brand of electronics I've owned that I've had constant reliability issues with were from Emotiva and the parts counts in those products are typically a lot less than that of a Japanese receiver. Food for thought.

I completely agree with you on those points and those are the very points that I wanted (still trying) to get through to TLSGuy that it is not just about part counts and complexity, more about the engineering design and technology put into the specific unit. You mention about the heat produced by the SR8012 even idling, I experienced the same even with the X4400H that replaced the AV8801, they both idling quite warm in the high 40's degree C on top of the chassis. I would imagine it would have been easily over 60 degree C at the hot spots on the circuit boards inside so I put one fan on top and that lower the chassis temperature by about 10 degrees C. That's no problem at all even without the external fans, and I have never heard the internal fans kicked in. I just feel better with the added fans that I can control, without having to rely on D&M's settings, that I believe would have been set high enough to avoid noise complaints and just low enough to protect their units from warranty claims.

Eco mode would help by about 5 degree C if left ON, auto would be good for people who listen with volume below 30 something (I can't remember the exact number for mine, 35 if I were to guess),the exact position probably depends on the model/year etc., based on feedback I read from other users. The concept is good and I am sure future models will have some improved versions that don't just rely on the volume position/output voltage, becoming more class H like than G like, though they(Eco mode, class G/H) are different animals.

 

[KEW]

Is this "waste maker" anymore horrible than the wasteland caused by old cellphones and TVs? Humans are wasteful and greedy and until we are living in a literal cesspool of our own waste, I doubt much will change.

...and that is before AI takes over targeting us with personalized advertisements!

For all of the great SciFi I have read involving AI, I have yet to find one that targets the way AI seems to be developing - figuring out ways to separate people from their money! Wonder when that will come out (or how to make an exciting yarn out of it)?

 

[Good4it]

We aren’t teaching AI , it’s TEACHING US. 1984 is around the next bend!

 

[gene]

But costs more dearer even without amplifiers. Gene, its 3am in the morning don't you ever sleep?

Time is a luxury I don't have, and the same goes for sleep most nights for me :/

$500 price difference between the Marantz 8805 and Denon 8500H can be made up if you sell some of your numerous JBL speakers It's well worth it in your case IF you're never going to use the internal amps of the Denon.

 

[gene]

It definitely does, I have seen the schematics. I can also confirm that if the internal amps are not used, turn ECO to "ON" instead of auto, then there will be no relay clicking at any volume position, and there is no effects on the pre-out voltage limits. That's for my X4400H, the AVR-X8500H/AVC-X8500H also has a so called "preamp" mode that I believe you thought it was a pseudo preamp mode, and I have no idea if selecting it will add any more benefits to simply turning on ECO.

I don't believe the rails are completely cut off from biasing the transistors on the amp section but I will check with my contact at Denon. My Yamaha RX-Z7 had a preamp mode but the amps still remained biased and dissipated power from the quiescent current.

 

[gene]

Yes but there is the other issue that I'll get a picture or better still a video as the video output still has some sort of issues with switching to a purple a red or other colours when using VHS, video signal, this happened with the Marantz so something queer with video processing that doesn't like when VHS is visually rewind. Also the video signal drops-out as the Marantz/Denon, thinks the video-signal isn't present anymore on the Video mode on the receiver so it goes to a blank screen and often takes or has very long lag time before it gets a lock on the video signal.on the

With laserdisc to DVD, HD-DVD, bluray, UHD, I not noticed any video dropout.

This wouldn't happen any other AVR of the past its all this digital software videoing algorithm processing one the chip. I may have to hard-wire video output from VHS to the tv video input as it seems to be getting popular all over again and can't have video dropouts. especially with The Hunt For Red October on VHS, sure the DVD is okay.

I noticed the picture sometimes goes black on my SR8012 when playing my Nintendo Wii with the kids which has a component video connection to the SR8012 and converted to HDMI. I do have a JVC 4-head VHS in my system still and will test forward/rewind to see if I can replicate what you're seeing on the 8500H.

It gives me an excuse to watch Star Trek Generations again, though I will cringe when Riker can't handle a battle with a 20yo Klingon BOP and loses the Enterprise as a result.

 

[andyblackcat]

I noticed the picture sometimes goes black on my SR8012 when playing my Nintendo Wii with the kids which has a component video connection to the SR8012 and converted to HDMI. I do have a JVC 4-head VHS in my system still and will test forward/rewind to see if I can replicate what you're seeing on the 8500H.

It gives me an excuse to watch Star Trek Generations again, though I will cringe when Riker can't handle a battle with a 20yo Klingon BOP and loses the Enterprise as a result.

Gene, I thought someone else might have noticed it. I believe it happens with video input.
Well when visual rewinding or say forwards the AVR is kinder saying "lost video signal"? That's what I believe. When video signal doesn't come on for say more than 5sec just, Turn the video mode back/forward one notch then back to the mode that has the VHS player on the signal will restore in few seconds, Yes annoying lay time which is one of Cons against it I guess.

When using a Yamaha AVR, forget model, still have it thou. The video mode switch was more instantaneous.

 

[andyblackcat]

Time is a luxury I don't have, and the same goes for sleep most nights for me :/

$500 price difference between the Marantz 8805 and Denon 8500H can be made up if you sell some of your numerous JBL speakers It's well worth it in your case IF you're never going to use the internal amps of the Denon.

Insomnia, Audioholic. I have those nights where it can go into few days without sleep.
I been in bed more less now for 2 days as last week setting that AVR up and rack tower totally exhausted me. Yet why did I buy a rack tower as I got spend more days on it but least its something to do.

 

[andyblackcat]

Just out of curiosity do you have the up scaler enabled on the Denon? It is on by default I think. Normally I have turned that stuff off and just run direct passthru. For the Yamaha I also had to set the Mode 1 for 4K, the default was Mode 2, which limits the 4k output to 50/60Hz 4.2.0.

Some of the settings are on P180 of the 6012 manual.
View attachment 27225

I shall look into that. I think one of the modes on it is switched ON.

 

[PENG]

Time is a luxury I don't have, and the same goes for sleep most nights for me :/

$500 price difference between the Marantz 8805 and Denon 8500H can be made up if you sell some of your numerous JBL speakers It's well worth it in your case IF you're never going to use the internal amps of the Denon.

Agreed, the only argument for keeping the X8500H is that it can be a back up to his power amps, power amps don't fail very often but it can happen, it happened to me once in many years my GFA-555 lost one channel. On the other hand, all of my AVPs, AVRs, old and new, including those I sold/gave away, are still working as day 1.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...it is not just about part counts and complexity, more about the engineering design...

Don't you think having a design (like Theta, DataSAT, etc.) where the parts are significantly less and the layout is significantly simple (like a regular computer with just the motherboard and some PCI cards that can be easily replaced) is the best design?

If DataSat and Theta can produce 16Ch Atmos/DTSX/4K/Dirac pre-pros that resemble a computer design, why can't AVRs and AVR-derived pre-pros do the same?

What's more "masterful" engineering? A simple design or a design where they have a dozen layers of circuits boards atop each other?

Theta:

DataSAT:

Denon:

$10K McIntosh MX160:

 

[Dmantis10]

I know many people like Denon and myself included but over my years I have seen to many Denon receivers and products fail especially the Heos stuff. It bothers me as I think Denon IF they had better QC I would go back to them. All products today are shabby with QC it's like our world has become cross your fingers and pray it works. I see it all the time.
Sorry dude

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, for most people, I think keeping the price down to $600-$1000 is probably the best "design".

As we've said many times, it sure hurts a lot less when the price is low vs high.

Take-home message: don't have a complex system like @andyblackcat - don't spend too much money and don't have too many channels.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know many people like Denon and myself included but over my years I have seen to many Denon receivers and products fail especially the Heos stuff. It bothers me as I think Denon IF they had better QC I would go back to them. All products today are shabby with QC it's like our world has become cross your fingers and pray it works. I see it all the time.
Sorry dude

Are you still using Denon?

 

[PENG]

Don't you think having a design (like Theta, DataSAT, etc.) where the parts are significantly less and the layout is significantly simple (like a regular computer with just the motherboard and some PCI cards that can be easily replaced) is the best design?

I don't know, hard to compare parts count just by looking at those pictures, but I do like easily replaceable board concept. They are probably very expensive so in the long run I am not sure if it is any better, given that there is something majorly new every 3-5 years. I have seen promises of modular upgrades, but I don't have faith such concept will make such products last more than 2 cycles (6-10 years?). Your AVP lasted 8 years, and Gene's more than 10 years before he sold it in working condition, iirc. Again, lower part count does not equal better reliability. Think about space shuttles, or even a simple Boeing787, or your Lexus that has many times more part count than your first luxury model automobile, assuming you had one 20 years ago.

The AVP definitely has more parts than those Theta even just going by the photos, but you already know one simple reason is the end to end balanced approach.

As you also know I have decided (at least for the next 3 years, hopefully) to stick with previous year model AVR, t keep my exposure to under C$1,200 or US$900 at the current rate, so while I do like the Theta's layout, I won't be interested in their product lines. I can't afford them even if they are worth the money.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do like the Theta's layout, I won't be interested in their product lines. I can't afford them even if they are worth the money.

I won't be buying any Theta or DataSAT or ATI pre-pro either. Too much money.

I just like the simple design of those pre-pros - 16 Channels, and still able to keep it simple.

I'm extremely happy with my current Pre-pro.

 

[PENG]

I won't be buying any Theta or DataSAT or ATI pre-pro either. Too much money.

I just like the simple design of those pre-pros - 16 Channels, and still able to keep it simple.

I'm extremely happy with my current Pre-pro.

Seem like we think alike on this one then.

 

[M Code]

Seem like we think alike on this one then.

The simpler internal design(single motherboard) of the Data Sat and Theta are done that way for a couple of reasons....

• No bulky, on-board amplifiers
• Crucial circuits(audio, video, control, connectivity) are done in single ICs
• North American CE mass production lines(modeled after the PCs) are geared toward (1) single mother board
• Off-shore factories have multiple product applications, for example the audio DSP PCB can used in an AVR

Just my $0.02..