Denon AVC-8500H is it D.O.A. or a Bug in the software?

[andyblackcat]

You have that absolutely correct. This is a picture of the guts of that unit.

Just look at those tiny horrid little power amps crammed in their like sardines.

Anyone who puts down hard change for a unit like that has never experienced the real world.

I would not give a cent for a unit like that, nor receive as a gift. It is a total waste of space and resources.

Good chance that unit will not make it out of the warranty period, if it does far more likely than not it will blow shortly after the warranty expires.

That is an absolutely worthless piece.

My recommendation is to avoid and run fast away from it.

This new trend of not rating receivers to 4 ohm and only 6 is an to be condemned.

This latest outrage shows why.

I can see the layout and what parts are heaviest like that transformer!

The amps what are the class-D type? I don't have any too many yet, nitpicks with class-D wow lots of power by and the people.

I can tell all the video and audio boards etc are located at the back with ribbon cables leading towards the front for the soft-keys and front display video switch and volume control.

 

[andyblackcat]

As did I, maybe around easter I think. Yes that where we got the 5 years, so it will be. I'm about 400 too, just the other direction.

I'm glad it's all working now, no Magic required. Hopefully the experiments bear some fruit.

I'm still listening with it and even bare bones again with that DSU used on films like The Peacemaker (1997) its still being played. I can hear how the processing filters out with some applied advanced matrix with possible anti negative circuity to cancel some of the common directional sound frequency signals as i can detect the scene in the Peacemaker where that Russian guy is at traffic jam in the desert and his honking the trucks horn on stage right few times until it pans over to centre channel.

Listening with just the DSU overheads ONLY I can hear the honking horn that sounds like been frequency cancellation filtered with this advanced DSU matrix as its easily noticeable as sort of bumping affect in the rest of the matrix signally that is layered on top of it.

 

[PENG]

I can see the layout and what parts are heaviest like that transformer!

The amps what are the class-D type? I don't have any too many yet, nitpicks with class-D wow lots of power by and the people.

I can tell all the video and audio boards etc are located at the back with ribbon cables leading towards the front for the soft-keys and front display video switch and volume control.

You are right, that little thing weights 8.2 kg = 18.1 lbs that's heavier than a whole Yamaha RX-V365. 5.1 AVR soaked and wet.

The amps are class AB type.

https://www.denon.jp/jp/product/hometheater/avreceivers/avcx8500h

 

[andyblackcat]

You are right, that little thing weights 8 kg = 17.64 lbs that's exactly the same weight as a whole Yamaha RX-V365. 5.1 AVR soak and wet..

The amps are class AB type.

https://www.denon.jp/jp/product/hometheater/avreceivers/avcx8500h

View attachment 27182

Yeah Gene, had video on the class amp types recently.

 

[andyblackcat]

Amazon echo-dot or Alexa, utterly useless! I got buy a mobile phone app thing device just to install this, app, for this thing to even start playing me ear raping radio music with depressing news in the morning.
Alexa, give me a blow job instead.

I'd sooner had a free one of these tablet devices so I can load that Audyssey multeq xt32, app for the Denon or Marantz. I'm confused as which device to buy as its got be a latest version that can easily use this, "app".

I can't even use the google Chromebook device to load this app, so Alexa just speaks once in while. "wi-fi not connected go to app". It has colour that circles around one my cats found it dull and went back to sleep.

 

[andyblackcat]

Alexa won't give me a blow job

 

[gene]

You have that absolutely correct. This is a picture of the guts of that unit.

Just look at those tiny horrid little power amps crammed in their like sardines.

Anyone who puts down hard change for a unit like that has never experienced the real world.

I would not give a cent for a unit like that, nor receive as a gift. It is a total waste of space and resources.

Good chance that unit will not make it out of the warranty period, if it does far more likely than not it will blow shortly after the warranty expires.

That is an absolutely worthless piece.

My recommendation is to avoid and run fast away from it.

This new trend of not rating receivers to 4 ohm and only 6 is an to be condemned.

This latest outrage shows why.

There is a lot of misinformation in this post which is sad as you typically give good advice. Granted these current crop of Denon receivers aren't built quite to the same standard as the older 58xx series but that was a different era where the super-receiver thrived and audiophiles had bigger budgets and placed more emphasis on sound quality over features. Now a days people want their AV receivers to do everything but make them coffee, though I'm sure if that were an options, they'd want that too.

Denon/Marantz switched to monolithic power amps in their receivers years ago, separating each amp on it's own circuit board to to help increase channel density while also improving CH-CH isolation. The picture you are looking at doesn't do justice to how big that power transformer is and also how much ample heat sinking they are still providing in this model. The 8500H also has a very intelligent power management system if (Eco-Auto) is engaged. It will switch the amp to the lower rails at lower power consumption to reduce heat dissipation and increase efficiency. Once the voltage hits a certain threshold, it automatically biases to the higher rails. It's sorta like a Class G topology, though a bit smarter in some regards.

Even back in the days of the venerable AVR-5805, arguably the best AV receiver ever made, the amps weren't rated at 4 ohms. It's not easy to get UL certification on a receiver that has 10+ channels built in rated at 170wpc/ea. In fact, it's pretty impossible even for a receiver that weighed 100+lbs like the 5805. That said, I found the amp section in that receiver to be very stable and entirely able to drive 300+ watts into 4 ohm loads.

see: https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-5805/denon-avr-5805-measurements-cont

The power supply was massive and the unit had a 13A consumption rating (I believe it had a15A fuse) which allowed it to draw virtually the entire wall current. I used it to power 9 speakers in my 6,000 ft^3 theater room and never had issues for the 3+ years it remained in my rack.

Consumers should be cheering that Denon is still producing a flagship "almost" super-receiver like the 8500H in today's marketplace. I want to see more, NOT less of this! There isn't another receiver in production today that gives you 13 channels of processing, all the latest in HD audio (including Auro 3D) and video codecs with HDMI 2.0 switching all with the added bonus of a pretty damn good amp section that will drive a wide variety of today's loudspeakers. I can't imagine anyone purchasing this receiver would be dissatisfied with the performance. If more power is needed, that's why it has preamp outputs.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is a lot of misinformation in this post which is sad as you typically give good advice. Granted these current crop of Denon receivers aren't built quite to the same standard as the older 58xx series but that was a different era where the super-receiver thrived and audiophiles had bigger budgets and placed more emphasis on sound quality over features. Now a days people want their AV receivers to do everything but make them coffee, though I'm sure if that were an options, they'd want that too.

Denon/Marantz switched to monolithic power amps in their receivers years ago, separating each amp on it's own circuit board to to help increase channel density while also improving CH-CH isolation. The picture you are looking at doesn't do justice to how big that power transformer is and also how much ample heat sinking they are still providing in this model. The 8500H also has a very intelligent power management system if (Eco-Auto) is engaged. It will switch the amp to the lower rails at lower power consumption to reduce heat dissipation and increase efficiency. Once the voltage hits a certain threshold, it automatically biases to the higher rails. It's sorta like a Class G topology, though a bit smarter in some regards.

Even back in the days of the venerable AVR-5805, arguably the best AV receiver ever made, the amps weren't rated at 4 ohms. It's not easy to get UL certification on a receiver that has 10+ channels built in rated at 170wpc/ea. In fact, it's pretty impossible even for a receiver that weighed 100+lbs like the 5805. That said, I found the amp section in that receiver to be very stable and entirely able to drive 300+ watts into 4 ohm loads.

see: https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-5805/denon-avr-5805-measurements-cont

The power supply was massive and the unit had a 13A consumption rating (I believe it had a15A fuse) which allowed it to draw virtually the entire wall current. I used it to power 9 speakers in my 6,000 ft^3 theater room and never had issues for the 3+ years it remained in my rack.

Consumers should be cheering that Denon is still producing a flagship "almost" super-receiver like the 8500H in today's marketplace. I want to see more, NOT less of this! There isn't another receiver in production today that gives you 13 channels of processing, all the latest in HD audio (including Auro 3D) and video codecs with HDMI 2.0 switching all with the added bonus of a pretty damn good amp section that will drive a wide variety of today's loudspeakers. I can't imagine anyone purchasing this receiver would be dissatisfied with the performance. If more power is needed, that's why it has preamp outputs.

I don't buy that reasoning. If you are going to add that many power amps, then you need to up the build quality and the grade of the components used, not downgrade it all. The reasoning is simple. As you increase the number of output devices by adding amps, you statistically have the chance of failure go up in commensurate proportion.

Long past time to take out the amps. Good power amps can last a lifetime.

All the bells and whistles go obsolete in about a year.

This is the waste makers in action and a horrible environmental nightmare. The equipment needs to be made modular and able to be upgraded.

I don't usually agree with the EEC, but they are rightly concerned about this issue. Legislation may well come down the pike.

You would never sweet talk me into getting tangled up with a unit like that.

 

[andyblackcat]

There is a lot of misinformation in this post which is sad as you typically give good advice. Granted these current crop of Denon receivers aren't built quite to the same standard as the older 58xx series but that was a different era where the super-receiver thrived and audiophiles had bigger budgets and placed more emphasis on sound quality over features. Now a days people want their AV receivers to do everything but make them coffee, though I'm sure if that were an options, they'd want that too.

Denon/Marantz switched to monolithic power amps in their receivers years ago, separating each amp on it's own circuit board to to help increase channel density while also improving CH-CH isolation. The picture you are looking at doesn't do justice to how big that power transformer is and also how much ample heat sinking they are still providing in this model. The 8500H also has a very intelligent power management system if (Eco-Auto) is engaged. It will switch the amp to the lower rails at lower power consumption to reduce heat dissipation and increase efficiency. Once the voltage hits a certain threshold, it automatically biases to the higher rails. It's sorta like a Class G topology, though a bit smarter in some regards.

Even back in the days of the venerable AVR-5805, arguably the best AV receiver ever made, the amps weren't rated at 4 ohms. It's not easy to get UL certification on a receiver that has 10+ channels built in rated at 170wpc/ea. In fact, it's pretty impossible even for a receiver that weighed 100+lbs like the 5805. That said, I found the amp section in that receiver to be very stable and entirely able to drive 300+ watts into 4 ohm loads.

see: https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-5805/denon-avr-5805-measurements-cont

The power supply was massive and the unit had a 13A consumption rating (I believe it had a15A fuse) which allowed it to draw virtually the entire wall current. I used it to power 9 speakers in my 6,000 ft^3 theater room and never had issues for the 3+ years it remained in my rack.

Consumers should be cheering that Denon is still producing a flagship "almost" super-receiver like the 8500H in today's marketplace. I want to see more, NOT less of this! There isn't another receiver in production today that gives you 13 channels of processing, all the latest in HD audio (including Auro 3D) and video codecs with HDMI 2.0 switching all with the added bonus of a pretty damn good amp section that will drive a wide variety of today's loudspeakers. I can't imagine anyone purchasing this rting eceiver would be dissatisfied with the performance. If more power is needed, that's why it has preamp outputs.

I noticed least I think I have with all the other options available with DSP micro chip. When selecting all the channels as (PRE) the amplifiers are switched OFF and turning the AVE into a PRE AMPLIFIER.

I also noticed when the volume dial on the AVR is reduced down and goes past I think -30db, has I'm in bed now, I hear a soft relay clicking. Is that anything to do with running at lower level if set its own internal amplifiers at lower current.

 

[gene]

I don't buy that reasoning. If you are going to add that many power amps, then you need to up the build quality and the grade of the components used, not downgrade it all. The reasoning is simple. As you increase the number of output devices by adding amps, you statistically have the chance of failure go up in commensurate proportion.

Long past time to take out the amps. Good power amps can last a lifetime.

All the bells and whistles go obsolete in about a year.

This is the waste makers in action and a horrible environmental nightmare. The equipment needs to be made modular and able to be upgraded.

I don't usually agree with the EEC, but they are rightly concerned about this issue. Legislation may well come down the pike.

You would never sweet talk me into getting tangled up with a unit like that.

In order to make an AVR to the 5805 standard and power output today with 13 channels of amplification and processing with the latest codecs, the unit would be even more massive and expensive than the 100lbs $6,000 5805 from 2005. That will never happen.

Denon made very reasonable tradeoffs on power output and compactness to make this product happen at this price class.

Is this "waste maker" anymore horrible than the wasteland caused by old cellphones and TVs? Humans are wasteful and greedy and until we are living in a literal cesspool of our own waste, I doubt much will change.

On a positive note, I'm not trying to convince you to buy this or ANY product.

 

[gene]

I noticed least I think I have with all the other options available with DSP micro chip. When selecting all the channels as (PRE) the amplifiers are switched OFF and turning the AVE into a PRE AMPLIFIER.

I also noticed when the volume dial on the AVR is reduced down and goes past I think -30db, has I'm in bed now, I hear a soft relay clicking. Is that anything to do with running at lower level if set its own internal amplifiers at lower current.

It probably does. However, if you're not using the internal amps, ship the 8500H back to the dealer and get yourself a Marantz AV8805. It has the exact same processing power of the Denon 8500H without the amp section so it's more efficient, lighter and has balanced outs.

 

[andyblackcat]

It probably does. However, if you're not using the internal amps, ship the 8500H back to the dealer and get yourself a Marantz AV8805. It has the exact same processing power of the Denon 8500H without the amp section so it's more efficient, lighter and has balanced outs.

But costs more dearer even without amplifiers. Gene, its 3am in the morning don't you ever sleep?

 

[Bookmark]

Gene, its 3am in the morning don't you ever sleep?

He's in America I assume so it is really only 9 or earlier, depending upon which part. It's us that are the odd ones.

Still glad to hear it's working. That must be a relief.

But costs more dearer even without amplifiers

It's odd isn't it, same thing less parts and it cost more.

 

[PENG]

It probably does. However, if you're not using the internal amps, ship the 8500H back to the dealer and get yourself a Marantz AV8805. It has the exact same processing power of the Denon 8500H without the amp section so it's more efficient, lighter and has balanced outs.

It definitely does, I have seen the schematics. I can also confirm that if the internal amps are not used, turn ECO to "ON" instead of auto, then there will be no relay clicking at any volume position, and there is no effects on the pre-out voltage limits. That's for my X4400H, the AVR-X8500H/AVC-X8500H also has a so called "preamp" mode that I believe you thought it was a pseudo preamp mode, and I have no idea if selecting it will add any more benefits to simply turning on ECO.

 

[PENG]

It probably does. However, if you're not using the internal amps, ship the 8500H back to the dealer and get yourself a Marantz AV8805. It has the exact same processing power of the Denon 8500H without the amp section so it's more efficient, lighter and has balanced outs.

I agreed with that from functional stand point. In terms of reliability, I am of the opinion that the AV8805 will likely not be any more reliable than the 13 channel AVC-X8500H and the 11 channel SR8012. It would have no power amp section in it, but instead Marantz stuffed 13 channels of HDAM modules, each of substantial size and has 10 transistors on board (each), so on transistor count alone, there are 130 more parts. And then there are the additional parts/circuitry for the balanced I/O that a lot of users won't be using. The X8500H has the extra 13 power amp modules to carry, but I think you and I both know that those amps are well protected by the heat sinks, and 4 controlled fans, in addition to the electronic protective circuits for both over current and thermal protection. All other Denon AVRs and Marantz AVRs except the SR8012, have only 2 fans. So if not abused, I would bet the extra electronics in the AV8805 has equal or higher probability of failing the unit than the extra 13 power amp modules.

@TLS Guy has the AV8003, and iirc he had to send it back for repair not long after he owned it. Just because we heard of Andy's DOA unit and a few after warranty failures of the $7,000 fully balanced AVP, we shouldn't be telling people to avoid AVRs and tell people to "avoid and run fast away from it ............".

I am also disappointed to see such post by a generally respected TLSGuy. I wish Denon or Marantz would send him a SR8012 or AVR-X8500H to evaluate for free for a year, and hope he would not "avoid and run......" if it is shipped free both ways..

 

[PENG]

I don't know about the source but found this posted in the AVSF AVR-X8500H thread. If true, the X8500H can consume up to 2.8 kW for a short time, indicating superior overload capability of the 18.1 lbs custom wound power transformer. I wish Gene would do some power output measurement on this thing, including the IHF dynamic power output. The transformer is obviously a non toroidal type like the one in the SR8012, but being custom made for the X8500H, it likely has the relatively lower leakage flux characteristic that toroids typically possess.

 

[snakeeyes]

So is the WiFi router going in the cat litter?

Sounds like the updates over WiFi were the issue.

 

[TLS Guy]

I agreed with that from functional stand point. In terms of reliability, I am of the opinion that the AV8805 will likely not be any more reliable than the 13 channel AVC-X8500H and the 11 channel SR8012. It would have no power amp section in it, but instead Marantz stuffed 13 channels of HDAM modules, each of substantial size and has 10 transistors on board (each), so on transistor count alone, there are 130 more parts. And then there are the additional parts/circuitry for the balanced I/O that a lot of users won't be using. The X8500H has the extra 13 power amp modules to carry, but I think you and I both know that those amps are well protected by the heat sinks, and 4 controlled fans, in addition to the electronic protective circuits for both over current and thermal protection. All other Denon AVRs and Marantz AVRs except the SR8012, have only 2 fans. So if not abused, I would bet the extra electronics in the AV8805 has equal or higher probability of failing the unit than the extra 13 power amp modules.

@TLS Guy has the AV8003, and iirc he had to send it back for repair not long after he owned it. Just because we heard of Andy's DOA unit and a few after warranty failures of the $7,000 fully balanced AVP, we shouldn't be telling people to avoid AVRs and tell people to "avoid and run fast away from it ............".

I am also disappointed to see such post by a generally respected TLSGuy. I wish Denon or Marantz would send him a SR8012 or AVR-X8500H to evaluate for free for a year, and hope he would not "avoid and run......" if it is shipped free both ways..

Yes, I had a power supply regulator fail in the 8003 early on. Since then so far so good.

I think this makes the point though that the more components the greater the risk of failure. Time to think about using components above consumer grade in these complex products.

In any event really the best place for power amps is in the speakers. This would be probably the biggest upgrade in quality.

 

[gene]

I agreed with that from functional stand point. In terms of reliability, I am of the opinion that the AV8805 will likely not be any more reliable than the 13 channel AVC-X8500H and the 11 channel SR8012. It would have no power amp section in it, but instead Marantz stuffed 13 channels of HDAM modules, each of substantial size and has 10 transistors on board (each), so on transistor count alone, there are 130 more parts. And then there are the additional parts/circuitry for the balanced I/O that a lot of users won't be using. The X8500H has the extra 13 power amp modules to carry, but I think you and I both know that those amps are well protected by the heat sinks, and 4 controlled fans, in addition to the electronic protective circuits for both over current and thermal protection. All other Denon AVRs and Marantz AVRs except the SR8012, have only 2 fans. So if not abused, I would bet the extra electronics in the AV8805 has equal or higher probability of failing the unit than the extra 13 power amp modules.

@TLS Guy has the AV8003, and iirc he had to send it back for repair not long after he owned it. Just because we heard of Andy's DOA unit and a few after warranty failures of the $7,000 fully balanced AVP, we shouldn't be telling people to avoid AVRs and tell people to "avoid and run fast away from it ............".

I am also disappointed to see such post by a generally respected TLSGuy. I wish Denon or Marantz would send him a SR8012 or AVR-X8500H to evaluate for free for a year, and hope he would not "avoid and run......" if it is shipped free both ways..

I haven't heard of reliability getting worse with Denon/Marantz products over the last decade or so. I honestly don't count the # of transistors in a product and live in fear that they will fail as a result sometime down the road. I owned a Denon AVP processor for 10 years without incident in the past and that was a very complex product with LOTS of transistors, including Class A bias. Transistors are pretty damn reliable these days as long as you control heat.

I do own an SR8012 and it gets damn hot just sitting in idle so that does give me some concern but we shall see. Eco-auto does help out substantially and you just have to make sure you let your equipment have plenty of ventilation.

Dedicated power amps are NOT without their issues either. After a couple of decades they often need to be re-capped since electrolytics dry up and fail overtime.

Denon, Marantz and Yamaha has had steady reliability since I've been using their products for nearly 3 decades. The only brand of electronics I've owned that I've had constant reliability issues with were from Emotiva and the parts counts in those products are typically a lot less than that of a Japanese receiver. Food for thought.

 

[gianni.parri]

Obviously, its fair to be pissed off. Thou i think there's lemons in all Products theses days, doesn't take much for electronics time fail. If the next one fails, then you should get a full refund.

I think they should give you a discount, or have someone come install the replacement on your behalf and fine tune it for you...

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