Denon AVR-X3400H/X3500H/X4400H/X4500H Owners thread

[PENG]

Another confusion is what does large/small really mean? After our discussion yesterday it doesn't seem to mean much. Even more so if you go in manually set crossovers.

If your AVR sets the main's XO to "large", it means Audyssey reported the speakers roll off at below 40 Hz, that's why if you leave it at that, your XO for the mains will be "full band" as shown in my screen shots. That also means the sub won't be helping the speakers set to "large", and will therefore take care of the signal in the LFE channel only, unless you change the "bass" setting on the menu from LFE to LFE+Main (the so called double bass setting).

You are right, that practically means nothing because most people should change them to small anyway, and only then you can experiment with different XO settings, by manually adjust them to 60, 80, 90 Hz etc., until you like the bass sounding the best to you at you main seat.

I changed my main's XOs for the mains, center, surr, surr back to 80,90,60,40Hz respectively. That gives me the flattest response for both 2.1 and 7.1.

 

[Danzilla31]

If your AVR sets the main's XO to "large", it means Audyssey reported the speakers roll off at below 40 Hz, that's why it you leave it at that, your XO for the mains will be "full band" as shown in my screen shots. That also means the sub won't be helping the speakers set to "large", and will therefore take care of the signal in the LFE channel only, unless you change the "bass" setting on the menu from LFE to LFE+Main (the so called double bass setting).

You are right, that practically means nothing because most people should change them to small anyway, and only then you can experiment with different XO settings, by manually adjust them to 60, 80, 90 Hz etc., until you like the bass sounding the best to you at you main seat.

I changed my main's XOs for the mains, center, surr, surr back to 80,90,60,40Hz respectively. That gives me the flattest response for both 2.1 and 7.1.

Hi PENG you brought up a good point here you mentioned previously that to raise the bass up to do it from the reciever but not from the subs level.

Can you help me understand this?

Why I'm asking is my 4400H Is like to boost the subs a little more. They are set after audyssey at -15 on each PB 4000. And -8 on one and -7 on the other.

From what I understand your saying boost them by moving the avr trim up to say -6 and -5 on the other but don't touch the subs volume at -15 on each. I will do that but do you mind explaining briefly why that is the best approach? Just want to learn if I can. Thanks PENG

 

[PENG]

Hi PENG you brought up a good point here you mentioned previously that to raise the bass up to do it from the reciever but not from the subs level.

Can you help me understand this?

Why I'm asking is my 4400H Is like to boost the subs a little more. They are set after audyssey at -15 on each PB 4000. And -8 on one and -7 on the other.

From what I understand your saying boost them by moving the avr trim up to say -6 and -5 on the other but don't touch the subs volume at -15 on each. I will do that but do you mind explaining briefly why that is the best approach? Just want to learn if I can. Thanks PENG

That is correct in your case because -15 on the PB4000 is quite high and the avr sub levels at -8/-7 are okay but a touch low. Increase the trim to -6/-5 is a good idea if you prefer a little more bass like most people do.

It is better this way because:
1) If you make the changes at the avr, and you don't like the results, you can always go back to the original values. If you do it on the sub, unless it is done digitally and is displayed like the PB4000 does, you won't know exactly where the original setting was. With the PB4000, this point is obviously moot, but doing it at the avr allows you to make changes with the remote.
2) Theoretically it is better to have the trim set closer to 0, that is the mid point. Too close to the maximum could mean higher distortion, and too close to the minimum could result in poorer overall signal to noise ratio, and may have hard time trigger the subwoofer on. It is about a better balance in terms of gain structure. You can Google gain structure if you want to learn more about it. I hope this makes sense to you.

 

[Danzilla31]

That is correct in your case because -15 on the PB4000 is quite high and the avr sub levels at -8/-7 are okay but a touch low. Increase the trim to -6/-5 is a good idea if you prefer a little more bass like most people do.

It is better this way because:
1) If you make the changes at the avr, and you don't like the results, you can always go back to the original values. If you do it on the sub, unless it is done digitally and is displayed like the PB4000 does, you won't know exactly where the original setting was. With the PB4000, this point is obviously moot, but doing it at the avr allows you to make changes with the remote.
2) Theoretically it is better to have the trim set closer to 0, that is the mid point. Too close to the maximum could mean higher distortion, and too close to the minimum could result in poorer overall signal to noise ratio, and may have hard time trigger the subwoofer on. It is about a better balance in terms of gain structure. You can Google gain structure if you want to learn more about it. I hope this makes sense to you.

Thanks PENG yes that makes a lot of sense. Appreciate your help

 

[Danzilla31]

If your AVR sets the main's XO to "large", it means Audyssey reported the speakers roll off at below 40 Hz, that's why if you leave it at that, your XO for the mains will be "full band" as shown in my screen shots. That also means the sub won't be helping the speakers set to "large", and will therefore take care of the signal in the LFE channel only, unless you change the "bass" setting on the menu from LFE to LFE+Main (the so called double bass setting).

You are right, that practically means nothing because most people should change them to small anyway, and only then you can experiment with different XO settings, by manually adjust them to 60, 80, 90 Hz etc., until you like the bass sounding the best to you at you main seat.

I changed my main's XOs for the mains, center, surr, surr back to 80,90,60,40Hz respectively. That gives me the flattest response for both 2.1 and 7.1.

Hey PENG just scored a really good deal on a EMOTIVA XPA-5. I have enough amplification now to power the 4400H externally and run it as a prepro. You said when I do this I can just run it in ECO mode and it won't affect dynamics or sound if I remember correctly.

Also this is a noob question. The Emotiva XPA 5 has 5 channels × 200 watts continuous. If I run my front 3 and the surround mains on it not the surround backs. I'm not going to blow my surrounds. I think the Denon won't push the surrounds as hard as the fronts. There not rated for 200 watts continuous more like 125. I'm only curious because I noticed since I o
put my in ceilings on to the Emotiva UPA-7 and took that one off the mains it barely even gets warm. Where before it got warm running the fronts. I'm assuming the reciever is inputting the channels and amps at different levels more input to the fronts not as much to the surrounds and heights. Like I said noob question. Curious how that works with amps and recievers.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hey guys. I just came across some info regarding the X0000h series regarding the auto DRC function. It seems that on Atmos tracks the Denon will set DRC to auto. In order to turn it off, while a film is playing you have to go into the sound management (sorry I can’t remember exactly the menu name off hand) and activate sound management and turn DRC to “off”. I guess it’s a very little known problem and I’ve never met a DRC scheme I liked, so I thought I’d see if you guys know anything about this.

 

[Danzilla31]

Hey guys. I just came across some info regarding the X0000h series regarding the auto DRC function. It seems that on Atmos tracks the Denon will set DRC to auto. In order to turn it off, while a film is playing you have to go into the sound management (sorry I can’t remember exactly the menu name off hand) and activate sound management and turn DRC to “off”. I guess it’s a very little known problem and I’ve never met a DRC scheme I liked, so I thought I’d see if you guys know anything about this.

I'll have to check that out when I play some atmos stuff this weekend I'll let you know what happens yeah I HATE DRC functions. Luckily I'm single so I don't need to worry about keeping the volume down

 

[snakeeyes]

Hey PENG just scored a really good deal on a EMOTIVA XPA-5. I have enough amplification now to power the 4400H externally and run it as a prepro. You said when I do this I can just run it in ECO mode and it won't affect dynamics or sound if I remember correctly.

Also this is a noob question. The Emotiva XPA 5 has 5 channels × 200 watts continuous. If I run my front 3 and the surround mains on it not the surround backs. I'm not going to blow my surrounds. I think the Denon won't push the surrounds as hard as the fronts. There not rated for 200 watts continuous more like 125. I'm only curious because I noticed since I o
put my in ceilings on to the Emotiva UPA-7 and took that one off the mains it barely even gets warm. Where before it got warm running the fronts. I'm assuming the reciever is inputting the channels and amps at different levels more input to the fronts not as much to the surrounds and heights. Like I said noob question. Curious how that works with amps and recievers.

Congrats on the new amp!!! More power!!!

 

[Danzilla31]

Congrats on the new amp!!! More power!!!

Thanks!!! Yes yes moooooooorrrree POWEEER!

 

[PENG]

Hey PENG just scored a really good deal on a EMOTIVA XPA-5. I have enough amplification now to power the 4400H externally and run it as a prepro. You said when I do this I can just run it in ECO mode and it won't affect dynamics or sound if I remember correctly.

Also this is a noob question. The Emotiva XPA 5 has 5 channels × 200 watts continuous. If I run my front 3 and the surround mains on it not the surround backs. I'm not going to blow my surrounds. I think the Denon won't push the surrounds as hard as the fronts. There not rated for 200 watts continuous more like 125. I'm only curious because I noticed since I o
put my in ceilings on to the Emotiva UPA-7 and took that one off the mains it barely even gets warm. Where before it got warm running the fronts. I'm assuming the reciever is inputting the channels and amps at different levels more input to the fronts not as much to the surrounds and heights. Like I said noob question. Curious how that works with amps and recievers.

How much power the amp need to drive the surrounds will mainly depend on the following:
- the spl you need, i.e. how high you crank the volume up to.
- the distance between your seat and the speakers (surround in this case).
- the sensitivity, in 2.83V/1m, and the impedance, or the sensitivity in 1W/1m.

If you enter the above information into that often linked online peak calculator you will get the answer. Going by the information you have provided so far, I am quite sure there is no chance of blowing your surrounds if you listen to THX standard reference level, i.e., 105 dB peaks, or even a touch high.

Did you pick up the XPA-5 gen 3? If so, those are much more efficient and should run cool. The first generation ones are the typical class AB type with conventional power supplies so those would run much warmer, when pushed.

 

[Danzilla31]

How much power the amp need to drive the surrounds will mainly depend on the following:
- the spl you need, i.e. how high you crank the volume up to.
- the distance between your seat and the speakers (surround in this case).
- the sensitivity, in 2.83V/1m, and the impedance, or the sensitivity in 1W/1m.

If you enter the above information into that often linked online peak calculator you will get the answer. Going by the information you have provided so far, I am quite sure there is no chance of blowing your surrounds if you listen to THX standard reference level, i.e., 105 dB peaks, or even a touch high.

Did you pick up the XPA-5 gen 3? If so, those are much more efficient and should run cool. The first generation ones are the typical class AB type with conventional power supplies so those would run much warmer, when pushed.

Man I wish I'd picked up a Gen3 no it was the first generation. But like the UPA-7 it's in real good shape. I have rack fans plus if running the Denon in ECO mode doesnt affect the sound I'll just take the fans I bought for it and run them on top of the Emotiva. Thanks for the help and info!

 

[Danzilla31]

Man I wish I'd picked up a Gen3 no it was the first generation. But like the UPA-7 it's in real good shape. I have rack fans plus if running the Denon in ECO mode doesnt affect the sound I'll just take the fans I bought for it and run them on top of the Emotiva. Thanks for the help and info!

Ahhh I found PENGS post where you can use eco mode on all the time if your running all external amplification. Sweet! Anything I can do to help keep my baby in good shape!

 

[PENG]

ECO mode definitely won't affect performance if used as prepro only. I still think you should leave the fan there in case you had Eco back on or auto if you accidentally press the button. That happened to me a few time but I always have the fan on so I have no fear. Not the end of the world either way, just want to play extra safe that's all. The first gen XPA-5 shouldn't need a fan if you have the recommended space for it to vent.

 

[Danzilla31]

ECO mode definitely won't affect performance if used as prepro only. I still think you should leave the fan there in case you had Eco back on or auto if you accidentally press the button. That happened to me a few time but I always have the fan on so I have no fear. Not the end of the world either way, just want to play extra safe that's all. The first gen XPA-5 shouldn't need a fan if you have the recommended space for it to vent.

Kool thanks PENG!

 

[lovinthehd]

Hey guys. I just came across some info regarding the X0000h series regarding the auto DRC function. It seems that on Atmos tracks the Denon will set DRC to auto. In order to turn it off, while a film is playing you have to go into the sound management (sorry I can’t remember exactly the menu name off hand) and activate sound management and turn DRC to “off”. I guess it’s a very little known problem and I’ve never met a DRC scheme I liked, so I thought I’d see if you guys know anything about this.

IIRC some Dolby TrueHD soundtracks pre-Atmos movies could do this, too, implemented by the disc author and allowed by the avr. I've not run into it all that often myself but I have found it turned on during/afterwards (when I'm thinking hey what changed).

 

[PENG]

Kool thanks PENG!

You are welcome, again, and I actually measured the preouts today on both the Marantz AV8801 and the AVR-X4400H preouts. To my surprise, the cheap Denon actually outperformed the AV8801 up to slightly above 4V output. After that the Marantz won, and was able to remain a little more linear up to above 5.2 V before thing began to get ugly.

Actually I shouldn't be all that surprised because as Gene stated in his review on the AVR-X3300W:

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power.

Obviously I don't have the AP that Gene used to do such test, but I trust my methodology of just using a mm to measure true rms, and a sine wave tone for input, is good enough to give me a rough idea. Based on the test results, I am comfortable to say that the AVR-X4400H should be able to drive any power amp with 27 dB or higher gain, to their rated output of hundreds of watts into 8 ohms. I did check the preout voltages with ECO mode on and off, no difference whatsoever.

 

[Danzilla31]

IIRC some Dolby TrueHD soundtracks pre-Atmos movies could do this, too, implemented by the disc author and allowed by the avr. I've not run into it all that often myself but I have found it turned on during/afterwards (when I'm thinking hey what changed).

That's is good info to know what part of the menu do you need to go into to change this back to off if you find it got turned on?

 

[lovinthehd]

That's is good info to know what part of the menu do you need to go into to change this back to off if you find it got turned on?

On my Denon setup > audio > audyssey > dynamic volume.

 

[Danzilla31]

On my Denon setup > audio > audyssey > dynamic volume.

Man I'm glad you guys talked about this. Found mine was turned on so I had both of them turned on at the Sony blue ray and the Denon. No wonder I was telling PENG I kept needing to push my volume past reference to get the sound I wanted. He was telling me at 80 on the Denon your at reference level at a theater. I knew something was off. My reciever at 80 I was like this doesn't sound even close to what it should be. Now with all that stuff shut off. YEP we are good to go. I don't even want to get close to 80 let alone past it. For real I'm glad he started this thread. Half my screwups Is never have even caught and I'd still be fumbling around. Hell I still probably am.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

IIRC some Dolby TrueHD soundtracks pre-Atmos movies could do this, too, implemented by the disc author and allowed by the avr. I've not run into it all that often myself but I have found it turned on during/afterwards (when I'm thinking hey what changed).

That’s crazy. I hadn’t ever heard of that until the other day.

On my Denon setup > audio > audyssey > dynamic volume.

Not sure if you’re saying to turn off DEQ but what I was reading about is not deq. It’s a DRC flagged by the title as you mentioned, but to turn it off, I guess you have to have a movie playing, and then go into the sound management and turn sound management ON, because the DRC will be grayed out and set to auto. Once you change it from auto to off, then you turn sound management off so it can’t ever get flagged back on by the auto setting. This apparently is only related to the newer denons. 4300(maybe) and up.
I will go and try to find where I saw that.
Avs Dolby Atmos home theater edition iirc.