The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

How likely are you to buy this Monoblock?

  • 100%

    Votes: 10 16.7%
  • 50%

    Votes: 15 25.0%
  • 0% - I have no need for any more amps

    Votes: 16 26.7%
  • 0% - I might change amps, but not these amps

    Votes: 4 6.7%
  • 0% - I want to match my amps with Pre-pro and I don’t own an Outlaw Pre-Pro

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • What is a monoblock???

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Already have one or more

    Votes: 13 21.7%

  • Total voters
    60
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
My 50% vote is a mix of 0% because I don't need anymore amp channels and 100% because ... that's how it is. I don't have to explain myself to you. Get off my back already! :D

I do what I want !!! :rolleyes:
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I think you need to add a poll to this thread: how likely are you to buy this Monoblock?

A. 100%
B. 50%
C. 0% - I have no need for any more amps
D. 0% - I might change amps, but not these amps
E. 0% - I want to match my amps with Pre-pro and I don’t own an Outlaw Pre-Pro
You forgot -
F. Already have one (or more)

Edit: Too late!
I guess 100% is close enough, just a matter of tense.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Great amplifier...
Built by the OE factory (Taiwan) that builds the majority of the Parasound products. He also builds multiple channel amplifiers for distributed audio by SpeakerCraft. We know the factory owner well, he is an experienced audiophile. Over the years we have sourced various amplifier products from his factory...

Just my $0.02... ;)
Mightn't one infer that the Outlaw 5000 is also made in the same facility?:cool:
It would surprise me if they contracted with a different manufacturer.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Mightn't one infer that the Outlaw 5000 is also made in the same facility?:cool:
It would surprise me if they contracted with a different manufacturer.
Correcto..
The OE factory is not large compared to some of the bigger name automated/robotic factories that build AVRs... But because its owner/chief engineer is well-experienced they can build very high quality products @ a reasonable cost with minimal production qty lots. What many may not realize before Japan went to China they went to Taiwan so their knowhow and availability of hi-grade components was applied in Taiwan. Their production setup reminds of the earlier Japanese factories. Also if U saw the other link I provided identifying the torroidal power transformer factory in Taiwan got their knowhow from Japan. Note that this OE factory has built amplifiers for many of the major well-known brands including HK, JBL..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I voted for #5.

Actually, we need another choice -

#8: I’m getting what Gene got, know what I’m saying? :eek::D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
As you said, the given gain is constant, at least we are going to assume it is constant. Then we can ignore the input/output impedance, different gains for the different gain stages because it is the final overall gain that determines the relationship between the input voltage and output voltage at the speaker binding posts.

Edit: I should add the following short version, that is the only totally relevant part of our conversation regarding the required input voltage for an AVR to reach 400 W (obviously this is hypothetical, no AVR can reach 400 W output except for the IHF dynamic power rating thing..)

Short version:

Because of the square relationship between Voltage output and power output, to double the output from say 200 watts to 400 watts, you don't need to double the voltage, but simply multiply it by square root 2, that is,

If 1.7 V is needed to yield 200 W into 8 ohms,
1.7 X square root of 2, that is 1.7X1.414 = 2.4 V is needed to yield 400 W into the same 8 ohm load.


You are right, there is no need to reference the dB to multiple/ratio formula, not for this purpose.

Everything below the dotted line are for someone who has nothing better to do, so I am not going to hit the delete key.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The relevant formula are:
Reference site - http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculatorVoltagePower.htm

Nomenclature:
Vout - Output voltage at speaker binding posts
Pout - Output power in watts, for an 8 ohm resistor load
Vin- Input voltage at the power amplifier input
Vg in dB - Voltage gain in dB
Vg in multiples, or ratio - Voltage gain in multiple, or ration form, that is, Vg = Vout/Vin

Vout = Vin X Vgain (in multiples)
Pout = (Vout^2)/Z
therefore Vout = SQRT(PoutXZ)

The formula to convert from Voltage gain in dB to multiples and vice versa are:

Vg in dB = 20Xlog10(Vg in multiples),where Vg in multiples = Vout/Vin
Vg in multiples = 10^(Vg in dB/20)

First, I am going to show if 1.7 Vin produces 200W, then the Vgain in dB is not 27 but about 27.43, and that's why I mentioned the log relationship.

Since Vout = SQRT(PoutXZ),for an 8 ohm load, and Pout = 200W,

Vout=SQRT(200X8) = SQRT(1600) = 40 V.

Vgain in multiples = Vout/Vin = 40/1.7 = 23.53

Vgain in dB = 20Xlog10(Vout/Vin) = 20Xlog10(23.53) = 27.43

Now, to calculate the input voltage Vin required to produce 400W, keeping impedance the same, i.e. 8 ohms, you are correct that we do not need to worry about whether the gain is in multiples or dB because it is assumed to be a constant.

In this case we simply use the power formula again, that is:

Pout = (Vout^2)/Z,
Vout = SQRT(PoutXZ) = SQRT (400X8) = SQRT(3200) = 56.5685

Vin = Vout/Vgain in multiples = 56.5685/23.53 = 2.4 V.

To summarize:

1) For rated output of 200 W into 8 ohms with Vin = 1.7V, and Voltage gain of 27.43 dB, the output voltage will be 40V.

2) Doubling the output to 400 W, while keeping impedance and voltage gain the same, that is, 8 ohms and 27 dB, Vin will be 2.4 V.

3) Outlaw's specified Voltage gain of 27 dB, 1.7 V sensitivity for full output (200 W 8 ohms) is an approximation. If the sensitivity is actually 1.7V for 200 W into 8 ohms, the gain should be 27.43 dB.

I always develop my own spreadsheet for quick calculations, but the linked site above seems to have all the formula one can think off, complete with calculators that always checked out fine with my spreadsheets.
PM sent.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I don't know if I missed it elsewhere, but has anybody seen a more detailed spec sheet than what the Outlaws have available on their site? (For the 2200.) Or any full reviews with benchmarks that people have done? (Peng, thinking of you and the spreadsheet:cool: u mentioned in my thread about input sensitivity.)

(might dovetail nicely into another random learning quest that will infuriate half the people that look... not going to ask here lest I break the lid to pandoras box:oops: and the furies come to roost in what precious little hair I have left on my head.:eek:)

But seriously, anything out there?
Thx!
R
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't know if I missed it elsewhere, but has anybody seen a more detailed spec sheet than what the Outlaws have available on their site? (For the 2200.) Or any full reviews with benchmarks that people have done? (Peng, thinking of you and the spreadsheet:cool: u mentioned in my thread about input sensitivity.)

(might dovetail nicely into another random learning quest that will infuriate half the people that look... not going to ask here lest I break the lid to pandoras box:oops: and the furies come to roost in what precious little hair I have left on my head.:eek:)

But seriously, anything out there?
Thx!
R
The only one I know about is the one for the M200. I don't think much has changed so the review and measurements on that amp should be applicable to the M2200, more or less.. I can take some limited measurements myself, time permitting.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I'll look into the 200... a lot of searches referred me to that when I was looking for 2200 specs.
I <3 Google! :rolleyes:
Surprised somewhat at the dearth of info the outlaws give compared to other manufacturers. *shrugs Oh Well.

Thank you, Peng. Best!
R
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I'll look into the 200... a lot of searches referred me to that when I was looking for 2200 specs.
I <3 Google! :rolleyes:
Surprised somewhat at the dearth of info the outlaws give compared to other manufacturers. *shrugs Oh Well.

Thank you, Peng. Best!
R
Do you think outlaw would send you more detailed info if you asked? Think they might if your a potential buyer. Or are you simply wanting info from secondary sources that aren't biased? Anyways if you find anything out please let us know I'm really interested in those 2200's myself if I dig up anything I'll be sure to let you know
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I had a good convo with one of the cats over there about the 2200's, 2 weeks back or so. He told me I can email them all my equip specs, room dimensions, bra size :oops: [teehee] ...and they would see if the 2200's would work for my room. Mind, I have a pretty big room. I'll ask when I follow up with him.
I really like them on paper, but the practicality tells me i'm gonna have to shoot for the moon. If my room was smaller, I'd go for these in a heartbeat. Time will tell. I'll hit back with more details if I get some. Cheers to all!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I had a good convo with one of the cats over there about the 2200's, 2 weeks back or so. He told me I can email them all my equip specs, room dimensions, bra size :oops: [teehee] ...and they would see if the 2200's would work for my room. Mind, I have a pretty big room. I'll ask when I follow up with him.
I really like them on paper, but the practicality tells me i'm gonna have to shoot for the moon. If my room was smaller, I'd go for these in a heartbeat. Time will tell. I'll hit back with more details if I get some. Cheers to all!
Outlaw's power output specs seem honest and reasonable to me. You will be surprised how little power you actually need. If you provide the same sort of info that you are prepared to email them, I can tell you if the M2200 is for you too, in terms of power, voltage, current etc. Have you tried the peak spl calculator yet?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Do you think outlaw would send you more detailed info if you asked? Think they might if your a potential buyer. Or are you simply wanting info from secondary sources that aren't biased? Anyways if you find anything out please let us know I'm really interested in those 2200's myself if I dig up anything I'll be sure to let you know
What kind of info for the amp that you need and that you cannot find from their website and manual?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
For, me, as I'm learning about this stuff, I noticed that of most amplifiers I saw, the 2200 spec sheet left the most blanks, for example, THD + Noise, damping factor. Deal breaker? No. But as I'm learning, I want to see how things compare as fully as possible. (Don't forget my propensity to overthink!)
For the model 200, here hometheaterhifi.com are some THD+N readouts, frequency response (power bandwidth?).

Will the 2200 work with my system? Short answer is: yes. Will three 2200's run my front 3 respectably? Again, yes. Will it maximize my front three in an >8000'3 room (47.5' x 17.5' x 8'-12' sloped ceiling)? ... ... ... My listening area is about 1/4-1/3 of this space. Once the floor standers are in place my seat is about 9' back. Given this space, its the SPL that is the main challenge, I think. Not sheer volume. (Klipsch speakers with 98dB sensitivity would end that convo.) And again I will stress, this isn't about getting 3dB extra volume. ;)
Marantz SR 6012
Monitor Audio Silver 500s
Monitor Audio Silver C350

Again, I know it will work, but the learning for me is just as important. :)

Best
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
For, me, as I'm learning about this stuff, I noticed that of most amplifiers I saw, the 2200 spec sheet left the most blanks, for example, THD + Noise, damping factor. Deal breaker? No. But as I'm learning, I want to see how things compare as fully as possible. (Don't forget my propensity to overthink!)
For the model 200, here hometheaterhifi.com are some THD+N readouts, frequency response (power bandwidth?).

Will the 2200 work with my system? Short answer is: yes. Will three 2200's run my front 3 respectably? Again, yes. Will it maximize my front three in an >8000'3 room (47.5' x 17.5' x 8'-12' sloped ceiling)? ... ... ... My listening area is about 1/4-1/3 of this space. Once the floor standers are in place my seat is about 9' back. Given this space, its the SPL that is the main challenge, I think. Not sheer volume. (Klipsch speakers with 98dB sensitivity would end that convo.) And again I will stress, this isn't about getting 3dB extra volume. ;)
Marantz SR 6012
Monitor Audio Silver 500s
Monitor Audio Silver C350

Again, I know it will work, but the learning for me is just as important. :)

Best
I don't see much blank in THD, the specs say:
Power Output: 200 watts @ 8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, <0.05% THD; 300 watts @ 4 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, <0.05%

That's no less detailed than most other amps in the same price range.

You are right about the damping factor, but this is probably one of the most overrated spec, and I am not aware of any modern solid state amp that has DF low enough to be a problem. If you call Outlaw tech support they will likely tell you why they didn't include this particular spec.

Regarding the MA Silver 500 and C350, I thought I commented on them already, but it might have been someone else on a different thread that I responded to. Anyway, based on my experience with a MA Silver 8 based 7.1 system powered by a Marantz SR7009 in a room comparable to, likely larger than yours, I am confident to say if you listen to 75 to 80 dB average spl from 9 feet you will be fine without adding an external amp.

Having said that, if you enjoy your movies and music loud, say, at reference level, it would be a good idea to add an external amp. If you do, I would highly recommend something rated at least 200 W 8 ohms, 300 W 4 ohms. As you know, doubling the power output only get you 3 dB more in spl. I don't know what you meant by "isn't about getting 3 dB extra volume". Power not used would have have no effects, and more power is in fact about getting higher spl without suffering from higher distortions.

The Silver 8's are rated 4 ohms, the Silver 500 are rated 8 ohms, but they dip to 3.1 ohm so I still think it is always a good idea to drive them with 4 ohm rated external power amps whether you need it or not even if it is just for peace of mind.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Perhaps I wasn't clear, my apologies. I'm using this in conjunction with building my starter system to help me learn more about... well everything. In the equipment world, that is. ;) And yes, It is probably my thread that you are remembering discussing something very similar with me. *blushes
Not my intention to be banal about this, and my brain-mind works/learns in weird ways. So for me, seeing the data for some of those other items I mentioned is helpful to my greater understanding.
An example: slew rate. I've only seen this in one spec sheet that I can recall. Completely intrigued by what it tells us, but I also kinda get why most don't have it listed.
Regardless, thank you again.

With that out of the way, you mentioned at the end of your post: ...
the Silver 500 are rated 8 ohms, but they dip to 3.1 ohm so I still think it is always a good idea to drive them with 4 ohm rated external power amps whether you need it or not even if it is just for peace of mind.
Any 8-ohm/4-ohm amp should be capable of sustaining that brief dip, correct?
Cheers!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
With that out of the way, you mentioned at the end of your post: ...
Any 8-ohm/4-ohm amp should be capable of sustaining that brief dip, correct?
Cheers!
Correct, a 200 W 8 ohm, 300 W 4 ohm amp will have no problem with brief dips to 3 ohms and even 2 ohms. In fact even a mid range AVR can sustain brief moments of such dips. Yamaha actually do provide their dynamic output down to 2 ohms.

Slew rate, like damping factor, is almost never an issue with modern (Edit: meant to say well designed..) solid state amps especially power amps such as the M2200, and comparable Monolith or Emo amps rated not much more than 200 W.
 
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