The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

[Alex2507]

Yamaha actually do provide their dynamic output down to 2 ohms.

Funny but I just tracked down spec's and S&V measurements for my old rx-v663. I thought ... actually I'm pretty sure that US and Canada models were rated at 1.4 db dynamic headroom and dynamic power is 240 watts @ 2 Ohm. That is more than enough for condo central. You just freed up my small Marantz MA500 monoblocks.

I'm driving 4 Ohm Salk ST's just loud enough to hear dialog 90% of the time.

Edit: ... on eleven gauge wire, of course

 

[PENG]

Funny but I just tracked down spec's and S&V measurements for my old rx-v663. I thought ... actually I'm pretty sure that US and Canada models were rated at 1.4 db dynamic headroom and dynamic power is 240 watts @ 2 Ohm. That is more than enough for condo central. You just freed up my small Marantz MA500 monoblocks.

I'm driving 4 Ohm Salk ST's just loud enough to hear dialog 90% of the time.

Edit: ... on eleven gauge wire, of course

As I mentioned, those are dynamic ratings, Yamaha, Anthem, NAD are among the few that tend to emphasize the merits of those ratings, sometimes they would cite the IHF standard but I am not sure if they actually follow that standard. Your RX-V663 can drive your 4 ohm Salk ST, but how loud, sitting how far, are the kind of things you need to consider. For example, in a 10X12 room sitting 6 ft, listening to spl of 75 dB average, the little avr can do the job with almost 10 dB headroom to spare, assuming it is only rated 75 WPC into 4 ohm continuous.

Yamaha did mentioned how it was measured:
http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/997/2439/what-s_the_difference_between_continuous_rms_and_dynamic_power_

So is 20 mS long enough to be practical and useful most of the time? I guess, may be, but definitely not always. To me, IHF and continuous ratings are like two extremes, for most music and movie enjoyment, we need something in between, but I can't deny that the safest bet is to based one's requirement on the continuous ratings plus above average dynamic rating.

 

[Alex2507]

So is 20 mS long enough to be practical and useful most of the time? I guess, may be, but definitely not always.

Much more of this and I'll be hooking the 7 channel back up. But seriously, the S&V measurements show a 4 Ohm spec of 145 watts with the 1 KHz tone for 2 channel driven. Right now that system crosses @ 100 Hz. At my low listening level and 10' distance, the rec'r won't even flinch.

Maybe I was spoiled by those HK watts ...

That one never gets old.

 

[PENG]

Much more of this and I'll be hooking the 7 channel back up. But seriously, the S&V measurements show a 4 Ohm spec of 145 watts with the 1 KHz tone for 2 channel driven. Right now that system crosses @ 100 Hz. At my low listening level and 10' distance, the rec'r won't even flinch.

Maybe I was spoiled by those HK watts ...

That one never gets old.

Those HK watts?? I know you know what I want to say about those...

 

[Alex2507]

Those HK watts?? I know you know what I want to say about those...

Big power supply (heavy), weak amps in the service of higher but mostly useless all channel driven output. Clipped quick under 4 Ohm loads. That was my take away on the AVR 235/435/635 series. Regarding watts in general? A rose by any other name is still a rose: a watt is a watt is a watt ... etc. I want to mention that the HK 7300 and 745 were a breed apart from their mid level offerings. We always had those conversations run aground with the watts/$ topic. MSRP had to be considered but MSRP on H/K wasn't ever a real world consideration.

It's funny that the S&V article mentioned an Onkyo 606 as being a bigger, better deal than a Yammy 663. I had both to play with and the Onk did a fine job pushing difficult speakers until after a year or two of nothing but abuse, it made it out of my friend's garage and into his house where he eventually rewired everything by adding stuff and making the system user friendly for a 10 year old. That blew up the video output on HDMI. The 663 is still chugging along, albeit in a less demanding environment where I don't plug wires in where they don't belong while the system is on (as my friend did). Oh well ...

You have given me my monoblocks back. Now it's a question of what to do with them. Unused or under utilized, I feel like they're going to waste.

 

[PENG]

Big power supply (heavy), weak amps in the service of higher but mostly useless all channel driven output. Clipped quick under 4 Ohm loads. That was my take away on the AVR 235/435/635 series. Regarding watts in general? A rose by any other name is still a rose: a watt is a watt is a watt ... etc. I want to mention that the HK 7300 and 745 were a breed apart from their mid level offerings. We always had those conversations run aground with the watts/$ topic. MSRP had to be considered but MSRP on H/K wasn't ever a real world consideration.

Good memory!! The HK AVR 7200/7300 (also Onkyo TX-SR805, 87X, 90X and equivalent Integra's) 8 would beat most D&M's except the Denon flagships and a couple non flag ships (power wise). I would still avoid them because of their weight/heat and iirc it may have more reliability issues based on forum talks in those years. Back then those AC Infinity or similar fans probably weren't available.

A watt is a watt is a watt is what I would say about non HK (back in those days) AVRs bench tested to produce more "watts" in two channel driven continuous test into 4 ohms and 70% or higher of the rated output in the 7 channel driven (called ACD in those days) into 8 ohms. For HK AVRs (again, those back in those days..), they typically provide the ACD outputs as well so that's a moot point.

Just a side note: For argument sake, the literally meaning of a watt is a watt is a watt, that is "a" means one (1), then I would say it is always true for any AVRs or power amps because at one watt output, any AVR can handle low impedance load, even an one ohm load. One watt into 1 ohm load means the voltage is 1 volt, and the current is 1 ampere.
where they don't belong while the system is on (as my friend did). Oh well ...

You have given me my monoblocks back. Now it's a question of what to do with them. Unused or under utilized, I feel like they're going to waste.

The 663 has pre outs, so you can use that little gem for the center channel and be happy gain about 1.2 dB more power output for that channel. That isn't much help in terms of "watts" and sound quality improvements, but the center channel contents are typically more demanding, probably 50% more so demanding than the left or right channels, so it is not a bad idea to take some load/heat off the little Yamaha.

 

[PENG]

I should mention that I called Outlaw technical support a couple of weeks ago about their website's vague sensitivity spec that simply stated 1.7V for full output and gain of 27 dB.

I told him based on my calculations and calibration checks against my AVR/Amps, the gain appeared to be higher than 27 dB for RCA (have not tried XLR yet). I suggested that if the website info is not correct then they should update it for their own benefits. He put me on hold for a short while and reported back that the sensitivities should be:

RCA: 1.25 V
XLR: 1.48 V

Just check their website for pricing and noticed they updated that spec. It is confusing because it now stated: XLR: 1.7 V, RCA: 850 mV. That's better, but still confusing/incorrect. To me, the gain must be closer to 29 dB ( simply because the level difference between it and my amps were less than 1 dB and the sensitivity would be a little higher than 1.4 V for RCA, based on calculations. I am quite sure about this but will make some measurements time permitting, just to satisfy my curiosity and be 100% sure.

Also questioned him on DF that was missing. He commented that it is a spec that is difficult to measure, I supposed he meant therefore difficult to specify. On that point I agreed, but asked him if it would be an issue based on worst case scenario, example: >20 worst case. As expected he said no, no issue at all.

 

[Bucknekked]

As more people going beyond 5 channels, I can see the need for external power amps may also increase. The Outlaw Mono block M2200 and multi-channel amps, as well Monolith's and Emotiva''s seem to be the most recommended amps on this forum.

For some strange reason, I cannot find my Adcom GFA555 in the basement. Instead of using just 1 of 9 internal amp channels of my AVR, I took advantage of the labor day sale and grabbed an Outlaw M2200 for $299. I can now understand why it get recommended so often. This thing is impressive for the following reasons.

- Huge pan cake transformer and it is hum free, much quieter than my already quite Anthem power amp.
- Sturdy build, well layout PCBs.
- Easy to place due to its low profile.
- Have balanced input, though I won't be using it.
- Have the music sensing feature, so I don't have to worry about triggering it.
- Runs cool, class G power supply does work well in this thing!!
- detachable power cord.
- Has power switch.

We all know for many movies, the center channel draws more power than any other channels on average, so it makes sense for me to use the 200/300W/8/4 ohms M2200 for the center channel, the Anthem 225WX2 for the L,R and the M8003 for the surrounds and heights.

The Outlaw mono block is affordable, and reasonably priced even when not on sale. For multi channel applications though, I don't think they would compete well with Emotiva and Monolith's 5,7 channel amps.

Your thoughts?

what a great, informational, thread. I enjoyed it.

 

[billg71]

I voted 100% because I just ordered one to power the Gallo Strada 2 center. The Ref 3.1's are hooked up to an Odyssey Stratos Stereo Plus but I'm running the center off the Marantz 6012 and it just doesn't sound right. I'm hoping the Outlaw amp will kick it up a notch.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I voted 100% because I just ordered one to power the Gallo Strada 2 center. The Ref 3.1's are hooked up to an Odyssey Stratos Stereo Plus but I'm running the center off the Marantz 6012 and it just doesn't sound right. I'm hoping the Outlaw amp will kick it up a notch.

Meaning the Center doesn’t sound loud or full enough? Might need to boost the Center Channel Level for a lot of movies.

It’s NOT a big dynamic Center speaker, probably not made for very loud volume or high power. Power rated for only 10W - 150W.

 

[ryanosaur]

Nice, Peng. Thank you for posting about that. You alluded to some discrepancies before re what the outlaws had posted on their site. As much as I like them (on paper), and respect the opinions of the people I know that are using outlaw, I might actually be moving away from them. (My fantasies of a bank of outlaw monoblocks may remain just that... though I might look back favorably when it comes time to power my 4 surrounds.)
My speaker quest is leading me in a different direction now, and I might be leaving the main scene behind. I'm still going to drive an hour to listen to the Monitor Audio Silver 500s, and maybe visit the demon in its lair at a local Magnolia, just for kicks. But then... Utah? If this pans out I'm staring right down the line at an Emotiva XPA-DR3 for the front 3. My Marantz SR6012 will handle surround detail for the short term, but then its on to a second amp, or a second-third-fourth-and-fifth 2200.

 

[PENG]

I voted 100% because I just ordered one to power the Gallo Strada 2 center. The Ref 3.1's are hooked up to an Odyssey Stratos Stereo Plus but I'm running the center off the Marantz 6012 and it just doesn't sound right. I'm hoping the Outlaw amp will kick it up a notch.

Very interesting looking speakers you have. Never heard of anything like that before, 180 degree horizontal dispersion, no crossover, wow!! 10-150 W power handling makes it a good match with the M2200.

 

[PENG]

Meaning the Center doesn’t sound loud or full enough? Might need to boost the Center Channel Level for a lot of movies.

It’s NOT a big dynamic Center speaker, probably not made for very loud volume or high power. Power rated for only 10W - 150W.

True if one sits more than 10 ft away, but with 90 dB/1W/1m sensitivity, it can still produce the THX required reference SPL at 10 feet, without room gain all day long all by itself (i.e. one speaker). The 200 W rated M2200 is a good match in that sense.

 

[PENG]

Nice, Peng. Thank you for posting about that. You alluded to some discrepancies before re what the outlaws had posted on their site. As much as I like them (on paper),and respect the opinions of the people I know that are using outlaw, I might actually be moving away from them. (My fantasies of a bank of outlaw monoblocks may remain just that... though I might look back favorably when it comes time to power my 4 surrounds.)
My speaker quest is leading me in a different direction now, and I might be leaving the main scene behind. I'm still going to drive an hour to listen to the Monitor Audio Silver 500s, and maybe visit the demon in its lair at a local Magnolia, just for kicks. But then... Utah? If this pans out I'm staring right down the line at an Emotiva XPA-DR3 for the front 3. My Marantz SR6012 will handle surround detail for the short term, but then its on to a second amp, or a second-third-fourth-and-fifth 2200.

You're welcome, I intend to do the sensitivity measurements this week. I no longer have my $600 multi-meter with me but my other meter is still good enough for the job.

By the way, I am sure the MA Silver 500 are great sounding speakers, but are you considering anything else?

 

[billg71]

Very interesting looking speakers you have. Never heard of anything like that before, 180 degree horizontal dispersion, no crossover, wow!! 10-150 W power handling makes it a good match with the M2200.

Thank you, I'm pretty happy with them. AG has some interesting design philosophies but they were the best <$3K speaker on the market back in(I think) 2004 when they were introduced as the Reference 3 and have gotten better. It says something when a 12-year-old $2995 speaker is selling used today for $1800-$1900.

Reviews if you're interested: 6 Moons Audio Reviews for the Ref 3.1 and The Absolute Sound for the Strada 2.

 

[ellisr63]

I think a lot of the beauty of the M2200 is it allows you to put the power where you need it!
Also, make no mistake, the MX5000 is nowhere near the equivalent of multiple M2200's!
If you are truly going to use multiple channels, The Yamaha MX5000 is pretty much an Outlaw 5000 but supposed to drive 11 channels!?
If we look at Gene's comparable 5 channels driven measurements:
5 ch 1kHz Psweep 8 Ohms 0.1% THD:
MX5000 = 138 Watts Outlaw 5000 = 139 Watts

5 ch 1kHz Psweep 8 Ohms 1% THD:
MX5000 = 144 Watts Outlaw 5000 = 148 Watts

5 ch Dynamic PWR 8 Ohms 1% THD:
MX5000 = 205 Watts Outlaw 5000 = 212 Watts

Now, it is true that the MX5000 puts out 177/250 CFP-BW into 2 channels at 8/4 ohms and the Outlaw 5000 is rated at 170/230 under the same conditions (not a very big difference); however, the fact that the Outlaw (marginally) beats the Yamaha when 5 channels are running indicates that the $600 Outlaw actually has more capability from its power supply (transformer and capacitors) than the $2500 Yamaha MX5000. You would expect the 11 channel Yamaha to have a much, much larger power supply than the 5 channel Outlaw!
I'd imagine if you connected 11 speakers to the Yamaha it would not be pretty

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5000-mx/processor-and-amp-measurements

@PENG (or anyone else),I am more than a little uncomfortable making these statements as factual - I am stretching my understanding of power ratings and amp design! Please do not hesitate to make corrections/elaborate! Thanks!

I did, and it was ok, but not as good as having a Yamaha 250wpc pro amp stack.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

 

[ryanosaur]

You're welcome, I intend to do the sensitivity measurements this week. I no longer have my $600 multi-meter with me but my other meter is still good enough for the job.

By the way, I am sure the MA Silver 500 are great sounding speakers, but are you considering anything else?

Ive got a spreadsheet with roughly 80 different speakers that I've looked at, Peng, all on paper thus far (and a disgruntled wife that wonders why I can put this much energy into this). Many I've crossed off due to reviews that characterized a certain quality as lacking. For the price point, the MA Silvers are the ones that don't seem to get dinged at all. (I think the only poor statement I heard was about the Silver FX lacking any personality... but as rear surrounds *shrug, do you need a lot of personality?) That said, I looked up and down the spectrum from $300 per tower to $2000 (way. over. budget.) But even the Revel Concerta 2 line and ML Motion 60XT had some negatives line up against them. I almost threw up my hands and was trying to convince myself to just order the Emotiva T2/C2/E1/E2 combo and be done with it... have enough left in the tank for 2 X-13 subs and save $1K on the amp! And yes, I'd probably be happy by all accounts.
Hell, my dad's old $300 Boston Acoustics towers (ca 1990) and his NAD stereo receiver sounded amazing. Yet that was before performing in a symphonic wind ensemble. Once your in the orchestra, just hearing it isn't enough. Do the BA's still sound good? Ya. And I'm guessing here, but they are probably the equivalent of a $4-500 tower today.
As I said, might take a trip through UT and check out some boxes there, soon. I'll let you know what I find.

But now I gotta ask: What do you listen too? And what do you like?

 

[PENG]

Ive got a spreadsheet with roughly 80 different speakers that I've looked at, Peng, all on paper thus far (and a disgruntled wife that wonders why I can put this much energy into this). Many I've crossed off due to reviews that characterized a certain quality as lacking. For the price point, the MA Silvers are the ones that don't seem to get dinged at all. (I think the only poor statement I heard was about the Silver FX lacking any personality... but as rear surrounds *shrug, do you need a lot of personality?) That said, I looked up and down the spectrum from $300 per tower to $2000 (way. over. budget.) But even the Revel Concerta 2 line and ML Motion 60XT had some negatives line up against them. I almost threw up my hands and was trying to convince myself to just order the Emotiva T2/C2/E1/E2 combo and be done with it... have enough left in the tank for 2 X-13 subs and save $1K on the amp! And yes, I'd probably be happy by all accounts.
Hell, my dad's old $300 Boston Acoustics towers (ca 1990) and his NAD stereo receiver sounded amazing. Yet that was before performing in a symphonic wind ensemble. Once your in the orchestra, just hearing it isn't enough. Do the BA's still sound good? Ya. And I'm guessing here, but they are probably the equivalent of a $4-500 tower today.
As I said, might take a trip through UT and check out some boxes there, soon. I'll let you know what I find.

But now I gotta ask: What do you listen too? And what do you like?

I read subjective reviews mainly for fun. For decision making, it is better to focus on comparing specifications, but detailed specifications, and then search for measurements taken by reputable/reliable sources. Of course in the end one must audition the finalists derived from the first two steps, but the logical sequence should be specs, measurements and then auditioning.

Subjective is just subjective, take a read of the many LS50 threads and you will find a full spectrum of views, from almost hate to almost love, but if you go by measurements taken by multiple sources, those are accurate monitors relatively speaking, and should sound good to most people (according to Harman's research) if used within their limits.

I listen mostly to classical, and jazz music that involved minimum electronic instruments. To me, all those talks about electronics brands sound signatures (preamp, power amp, DACs etc.) are not logical, when you think about all the common electronic components/parts in the chain from the source media to the loudspeaker output and then what you hear is influenced so much by the room. So I believe the old $300 BA towers can sound good with a stereo receiver, and I also believe the best reference is what we hear in live classical concerts. Years ago, after every live concerts I couldn't stand any hifi systems for a while, but thanks to technological advance, this is no longer an issue for me.

 

[KEW]

Ive got a spreadsheet with roughly 80 different speakers that I've looked at, Peng, all on paper thus far (and a disgruntled wife that wonders why I can put this much energy into this). Many I've crossed off due to reviews that characterized a certain quality as lacking. For the price point, the MA Silvers are the ones that don't seem to get dinged at all. (I think the only poor statement I heard was about the Silver FX lacking any personality... but as rear surrounds *shrug, do you need a lot of personality?) That said, I looked up and down the spectrum from $300 per tower to $2000 (way. over. budget.) But even the Revel Concerta 2 line and ML Motion 60XT had some negatives line up against them. I almost threw up my hands and was trying to convince myself to just order the Emotiva T2/C2/E1/E2 combo and be done with it... have enough left in the tank for 2 X-13 subs and save $1K on the amp! And yes, I'd probably be happy by all accounts.
Hell, my dad's old $300 Boston Acoustics towers (ca 1990) and his NAD stereo receiver sounded amazing. Yet that was before performing in a symphonic wind ensemble. Once your in the orchestra, just hearing it isn't enough. Do the BA's still sound good? Ya. And I'm guessing here, but they are probably the equivalent of a $4-500 tower today.
As I said, might take a trip through UT and check out some boxes there, soon. I'll let you know what I find.

But now I gotta ask: What do you listen too? And what do you like?

Have you looked at Philharmonic Audio?
Depending on where you have been compiling your spreadsheet from, these may have slipped under the radar!
Their Affordable Accuracy Plus is among the best (if not the best) speakers you can get for $300:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/aa.html

And if you want to go for a very high level of performance at $1350:
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html

Dennis Murphy is Philharmonic Audio. He is retired and like to design/build speakers as a hobby. He is also responsible for the design of Salk Speakers (which go up to $16,000/pr and have an excellent reputation). He also play in an orchestra so has a well developed ear for tuning (although he is not happy until he gets both the measurements and subjective sound right).
I want to emphasize that Dennis has a special knack/genius/experience for designing crossovers.

Because of your comments about playing in an orchestra informing your hearing, I am assuming you are looking for a neutral and accurate sound. Philharmonic Audio delivers on that count!

 

[MrBoat]

To me, all those talks about electronics brands sound signatures (preamp, power amp, DACs etc.) are not logical, when you think about all the common electronic components/parts in the chain from the source media to the loudspeaker output and then what you hear is influenced so much by the room.

Agree. Especially when you start looking into the building of amps, and find, for example, how universal a lot of FETs and IC's are across multiple, if not all popular brands. Not just the manufacturer, but the actual part#. Then, like speakers, one may start to realize how much of that $ they're spending is on cabinets, chassis, features and hype. Now, by 2018, we have $6.00 amp boards from Asia that could fool just about anyone. One historical example of such foolery was the Gain Card amp. A handful of components that amount to pennies on the dollar, fetched over $3k in some instances and assembled optimally, could fit in an Altoids tin.

Combinations/topology of said components. . . . After awhile, the manufacturing costs of such arrangements end up becoming more obvious, but it's all been done by now, at least with regard to cost effectiveness on a mass scale. On the private level, one would likely be in a position to weigh audible differences and cut everything else out if they can just admit what they are hearing, or not. A look at some of Nelson Pass's crude circuits would tend to show just how crude 'we' actually are, comparatively.