The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think a lot of the beauty of the M2200 is it allows you to put the power where you need it!
Also, make no mistake, the MX5000 is nowhere near the equivalent of multiple M2200's!
If you are truly going to use multiple channels, The Yamaha MX5000 is pretty much an Outlaw 5000 but supposed to drive 11 channels!?
If we look at Gene's comparable 5 channels driven measurements:
5 ch 1kHz Psweep 8 Ohms 0.1% THD:
MX5000 = 138 Watts Outlaw 5000 = 139 Watts

5 ch 1kHz Psweep 8 Ohms 1% THD:
MX5000 = 144 Watts Outlaw 5000 = 148 Watts

5 ch Dynamic PWR 8 Ohms 1% THD:
MX5000 = 205 Watts Outlaw 5000 = 212 Watts

Now, it is true that the MX5000 puts out 177/250 CFP-BW into 2 channels at 8/4 ohms and the Outlaw 5000 is rated at 170/230 under the same conditions (not a very big difference); however, the fact that the Outlaw (marginally) beats the Yamaha when 5 channels are running indicates that the $600 Outlaw actually has more capability from its power supply (transformer and capacitors) than the $2500 Yamaha MX5000. You would expect the 11 channel Yamaha to have a much, much larger power supply than the 5 channel Outlaw!
I'd imagine if you connected 11 speakers to the Yamaha it would not be pretty

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5000-mx/processor-and-amp-measurements

@PENG (or anyone else),I am more than a little uncomfortable making these statements as factual - I am stretching my understanding of power ratings and amp design! Please do not hesitate to make corrections/elaborate! Thanks!

I think your assessment is accurate. Amps like the MX5000/5200 and Marantz and similar amps are probably only slightly better than the amps inside the AVRs. In terms of power output, there’s no way we should compare them to the Outlaw Monoblocks or amps made by ATI.

I have no worries about using amps like the Yamaha MX5000 for several reasons.

1. My speakers are very sensitive and don’t really require much power. I have used just AVR to power them with ease.
2. I will never use 9CH Stereo Mode.
3. Gene also uses the MX5000 for his speakers, except the 2 main fronts (T8 Towers). Gene powers his T8 differently than how I power my SVT Towers and SX-T2/R Towers because he powers the entire T8 tower as a single speaker, not as speaker + Sub.

So it just depends on how the amp is used.

But no way are these made-from-AVR amps the same as true separate amps.

 

[PENG]

A nice amp indeed!
It's a powerful amp in a small chassis not needing big heavy heat sinks or a fan to cool it. I assume that it operates in a Class D configuration, doesn't it?

Technically speaking it is class AB, but is commonly referred to, even their maker, as Class G.

Below is from their FAQ:

Q. Are there any downsides to this type of hybrid design?
A. The 2200 uses a proprietary A/B G design that does not have any audible downsides. The transition from Class A/B to Class G requires just 2 microseconds (NOT milliseconds) and this transition is 100% inaudible. This was imperative as many other hybrid designs produce audible side effects. Incidentally, at 200 watts the 2200 has less than .05% THD!

Q. Any other specifics?
A. The Model 2200 utilizes a newly designed (and proprietary) hybrid Class A/B/G circuit. It will provide Class A/B power up to 80 watts (which covers about 98% of most listening situations). Above 80 watts the Model 2200 will instantly shift into Class G amplification.

By the way, based on Gene's bench test results, the smaller (in terms of PS transformer and caps) Outlaw 5000 produced much higher output than specified. By extension, and based on the transformer size, caps, and output device ratings, I am willing to bet the M2200 on Gene's bench will do well over 200 W/300W 8/4 Ohms at 0.1%, probably at least 225/350 8/4 ohms, and I am being very conservative in my bet.

This little amp has been recommended by AH members many times, to the point I thought it is likely overrated, but now I think it is a jewel. I am still waiting for someone to suggest something (mono block or even stereo) that is a viable alternative to this thing.

 

[PENG]

I have no worries about using amps like the Yamaha MX5000 for several reasons.

1. My speakers are very sensitive and don’t really require much power. I have used just AVR to power them with ease.
2. I will never use 9CH Stereo Mode.
3. Gene also uses the MX5000 for his speakers, except the 2 main fronts (T8 Towers). Gene powers his T8 differently than how I power my SVT Towers and SX-T2/R Towers because he powers the entire T8 tower as a single speaker, not as speaker + Sub.

So it just depends on how the amp is used.

But no way are these made-from-AVR amps the same as true separate amps.

I agree, that's why I purchased the MM8003, though the Marantz is at least almost as powerful as my AVR-4308 on the S&V bench and has 8 channels.

In theory, one can use the mult-channel analog inputs and use the RX-A3070 as a 9 channel amp but what are you going to do with the jam-packed prepro stuff in it.

Serious, I would have no trouble substituting my Marantz with the Yamaha MXA, but I wouldn't pay the list price, but would consider paying $1,500 for one, and only because I prefer it's lighter weight and the extra channels, otherwise I would go the Monolith route.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Welcome to the family! As a recent convert myself, I find it odd amusing that I occasionally pet the stack of 2 I have on the shelf when walking past.

 

[2channel lover]

As more people going beyond 5 channels, I can see the need for external power amps may also increase. The Outlaw Mono block M2200 and multi-channel amps, as well Monolith's and Emotiva''s seem to be the most recommended amps on this forum.

For some strange reason, I cannot find my Adcom GFA555 in the basement. Instead of using just 1 of 9 internal amp channels of my AVR, I took advantage of the labor day sale and grabbed an Outlaw M2200 for $299. I can now understand why it get recommended so often. This thing is impressive for the following reasons.

- Huge pan cake transformer and it is hum free, much quieter than my already quite Anthem power amp.
- Sturdy build, well layout PCBs.
- Easy to place due to its low profile.
- Have balanced input, though I won't be using it.
- Have the music sensing feature, so I don't have to worry about triggering it.
- Runs cool, class G power supply does work well in this thing!!
- detachable power cord.
- Has power switch.

We all know for many movies, the center channel draws more power than any other channels on average, so it makes sense for me to use the 200/300W/8/4 ohms M2200 for the center channel, the Anthem 225WX2 for the L,R and the M8003 for the surrounds and heights.

The Outlaw mono block is affordable, and reasonably priced even when not on sale. For multi channel applications though, I don't think they would compete well with Emotiva and Monolith's 5,7 channel amps.

Your thoughts?

I'm a big fan...currently running the LCR in my 5.2.4 system...I think I might upgrade my side surround speakers, but getting 2 more M2200s has crossed my mind.

 

[TechHDS]

Technically speaking it is class AB, but is commonly referred to, even their maker, as Class G.

Below is from their FAQ:





By the way, based on Gene's bench test results, the smaller (in terms of PS transformer and caps) Outlaw 5000 produced much higher output than specified. By extension, and based on the transformer size, caps, and output device ratings, I am willing to bet the M2200 on Gene's bench will do well over 200 W/300W 8/4 Ohms at 0.1%, probably at least 225/350 8/4 ohms, and I am being very conservative in my bet.

This little amp has been recommended by AH members many times, to the point I thought it is likely overrated, but now I think it is a jewel. I am still waiting for someone to suggest something (mono block or even stereo) that is a viable alternative to this thing.

PENG, speaking for myself, I don’t believe any other manufacturer has anything close to those Outlaw monoblocks. Crown amps I would say.

Mike

 

[TechHDS]

Welcome to the family! As a recent convert myself, I find it odd amusing that I occasionally pet the stack of 2 I have on the shelf when walking past.

Yep, your one of us! I have been known to do that very same thing!

Mike

 

[Verdinut]

Technically speaking it is class AB, but is commonly referred to, even their maker, as Class G.
This little amp has been recommended by AH members many times, to the point I thought it is likely overrated, but now I think it is a jewel. I am still waiting for someone to suggest something (mono block or even stereo) that is a viable alternative to this thing.

How about the QSC DCA 1222 which I am using? It's also a 200 watts/ch at 8 ohms (325w at 4 ohms) which operates in Class AB and wouldn't take more space than two Outlaw M2200s.
It weighs only 21 lbs. At least one cinema equipment distributor sells it for only US$729, a slightly more expensive outlay than 2 M2200s.

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1222/

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

PENG, speaking for myself, I don’t believe any other manufacturer has anything close to those Outlaw monoblocks. Crown amps I would say.
Mike

Yeah, I've always thought for a long time that this Outlaw Monoblock is great.

$300 per monoblock is very good.

Now if it were $200 per monoblock, it would be awesome.

 

[KEW]

That hughe skinny toroidal pan cake must be custom wound for Outlaw right? I have many quite a few amps, all but one have toroidals, but none as big (of course in diameter only) as the one in the M2200, not even close.

Thought I'd add a pic that gives a sense of scale for the transformer. The M2200 is the standard 17" wide (actually measures 17-1/8") and you can see that the transformer is over 6" diameter (I'd guesstimate about 6.5").

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Yeah, I've always thought for a long time that this Outlaw Monoblock is great.

$300 per monoblock is very good.

Now if it were $200 per monoblock, it would be awesome.

I had the winning bid on a pair lightly used for $500. The day the auction ended ebay had a 15% off coupon. Is that close enough?

 

[KEW]

How about the QSC DCA 1222 which I am using? It's also a 200 watts/ch at 8 ohms (325w at 4 ohms) which operates in Class AB and wouldn't take more space than two Outlaw M2200s.
It weighs only 21 lbs. At least one cinema equipment distributor sells it for only US$729, a slightly more expensive outlay than 2 M2200s.

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1222/

Here is my armchair analysis:
I think that is a viable option, but the back of it shows the issues:

1) Fan noise is always a question. I, personally, use AC Infinity fans to keep my gear cool and accept the fact that I will hear noise when the central air is not running, so I'd be okay with it (assuming it is about the same). But for someone who doesn't use a fan, it is an unknown, but reasonable concern.
2) No RCA's means "non-standard" cables are needed. IME, the pro-audio cables for RCA to TRS or RCA to 1/4" pin put home audio cables to shame - they are supple (not stiff) and very durable. I have had RCA's work their way out over time (probably from me messing around the cords) and 1/4" or TRS have positive locking systems. You only have to buy cables once and I'd consider this a net positive - I'd rather use the pro audio inputs/cables.
3) Speakon connectors - I have never used them, but am betting they have the same advantages over banana plugs (which can be a loose fit of you get the wrong ones) as the pro-audio interconnects do, so net positive.
4) Edit 2 - Irv points out in post #34 that this is a moot point - the gain controls on the front of the unit will allow adaptation to +10 or -4. DOH!
(I left original text below)
Concerns over gain structure. This is probably the most damning of these concerns. IME, I have never had trouble mating pro audio equipment with consumer audio equipment; however, other people have. I did not see a switch to swap between -10dBV and +4dBu (like my Focal monitors and the Crown XLS drivecore amps have). Is this a concern? I don't know...actually it is, by definition, a concern, the question is whether it is a valid concern!
I have used a Yamaha P7000S pro-amp without any issues, but I have no idea if that was just luck! I know their is an adapter available, but dislike the idea of having to add another link to the chain.
It is this unknown that, I think, gives most people pause. Crown has obviously decided to embrace consumer audio by addressing all of the concerns above (except fan noise - though they are reputed to be extremely quiet),and I suspect they have had many sales for use in home audio by eliminating the uncertainties!

Edit:
I forgot aesthetics! If it will be in a conspicuous location, I'd go with the Outlaw. The QSC is not bad looking for a pro-amp, but the Outlaws just have a great clean look to them with the mostly blank face plate!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I had the winning bid on a pair lightly used for $500. The day the auction ended ebay had a 15% off coupon. Is that close enough?

Close, but no cigars.

Needs to be exactly $200 brand new for people wanting to buy 11-13Ch.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Here is my armchair analysis:
I think that is a viable option, but the back of it shows the issues:

1) Fan noise is always a question. I, personally, use AC Infinity fans to keep my gear cool and accept the fact that I will hear noise when the central air is not running, so I'd be okay with it (assuming it is about the same). But for someone who doesn't use a fan, it is an unknown, but reasonable concern.
2) No RCA's means "non-standard" cables are needed. IME, the pro-audio cables for RCA to TRS or RCA to 1/4" pin put home audio cables to shame - they are supple (not stiff) and very durable. I have had RCA's work their way out over time (probably from me messing around the cords) and 1/4" or TRS have positive locking systems. You only have to buy cables once and I'd consider this a net positive - I'd rather use the pro audio inputs/cables.
3) Speakon connectors - I have never used them, but am betting they have the same advantages over banana plugs (which can be a loose fit of you get the wrong ones) as the pro-audio interconnects do, so net positive.
4) Concerns over gain structure. This is probably the most damning of these concerns. IME, I have never had trouble mating pro audio equipment with consumer audio equipment; however, other people have. I did not see a switch to swap between -10dBV and +4dBu (like my Focal monitors and the Crown XLS drivecore amps have). Is this a concern? I don't know...actually it is, by definition, a concern, the question is whether it is a valid concern!
I have used a Yamaha P7000S pro-amp without any issues, but I have no idea if that was just luck! I know their is an adapter available, but dislike the idea of having to add another link to the chain.
It is this unknown that, I think, gives most people pause. Crown has obviously decided to embrace consumer audio by addressing all of the concerns above (except fan noise - though they are reputed to be extremely quiet),and I suspect they have had many sales for use in home audio by eliminating the uncertainties!

Edit:
I forgot aesthetics! If it will be in a conspicuous location, I'd go with the Outlaw. The QSC is not bad looking for a pro-amp, but the Outlaws just have a great clean look to them with the mostly blank face plate!

There are gain controls on the front panel, so why is this a concern?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Again, sometimes it's not just about absolute power output, especially when your system doesn't require a lot.

So you have to weigh brands, aesthetics, spaces, prices, etc.

The Outlaw monoblock has its market. So does the Model 5000, Yamaha MX, Marantz MM, Monoprice, etc.

 

[KEW]

There are gain controls on the front panel, so why is this a concern?

Cool!
If that resolves the issue - no (valid) concern.
Part of the reason I worded it as I did was because none of the issues might be actual problems, but it is the not knowing for certain if there will be issues that is the barrier - IOW, my own ignorance in this case!
I will modify my post accordingly!
I just remember Wmax/Alex used to recommend the Yamaha amps and he always mentioned getting an adapter for the input!
Thanks for pointing out what now seems obvious!

 

[Irvrobinson]

I should also add that the gain spec on the QSC amp is for a maximum of 32db. So for most home HT systems you probably want the gain controls at their maximum, since 32db is what most HT-oriented amps provide. Many audiophile amps with balanced inputs only provide 26db or so of gain, and some weak-ass line-level outputs on AVRs and pre-pros have trouble driving low-gain amps like that to full power. For high power low-gain amps I like to see output sections be at least 8 volts capable into 10K ohms. Some AVRs will do that, some won't. Obviously the QSC won't present a problem.

 

[PENG]

I should also add that the gain spec on the QSC amp is for a maximum of 32db. So for most home HT systems you probably want the gain controls at their maximum, since 32db is what most HT-oriented amps provide. Many audiophile amps with balanced inputs only provide 26db or so of gain, and some weak-ass line-level outputs on AVRs and pre-pros have trouble driving low-gain amps like that to full power. For high power low-gain amps I like to see output sections be at least 8 volts capable into 10K ohms. Some AVRs will do that, some won't. Obviously the QSC won't present a problem.

That is an important point, I bet very few AVR can do 8 V RMS, peak, yes, some can, and many won't, still..

 

[slipperybidness]

How about the QSC DCA 1222 which I am using? It's also a 200 watts/ch at 8 ohms (325w at 4 ohms) which operates in Class AB and wouldn't take more space than two Outlaw M2200s.
It weighs only 21 lbs. At least one cinema equipment distributor sells it for only US$729, a slightly more expensive outlay than 2 M2200s.

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1222/

We had a large Town Hall at work today with mics and remote/powered speakers around the room on PA stands.

I noticed that the speakers happened to be QSC. I'm curious who runs our AV for these things, and whether he specifically went out for the QSC, or how he came about using those.

Of course, it was impossible to get a feel for any sound quality. But, they looked to have at least a 6" and more likely an 8" woofer, and there was a wireless receiver up top.

 

[everettT]

We had a large Town Hall at work today with mics and remote/powered speakers around the room on PA stands.

I noticed that the speakers happened to be QSC. I'm curious who runs our AV for these things, and whether he specifically went out for the QSC, or how he came about using those.

Of course, it was impossible to get a feel for any sound quality. But, they looked to have at least a 6" and more likely an 8" woofer, and there was a wireless receiver up top.

Their Cinema line speakers have very similar alignments to JBL pro, and the reference monitors look real interesting. I've only known them for amps over the years, so most of their line is new in that regards

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/