The popular Outlaw M2200 mono block power amp

How likely are you to buy this Monoblock?

  • 100%

    Votes: 10 16.7%
  • 50%

    Votes: 15 25.0%
  • 0% - I have no need for any more amps

    Votes: 16 26.7%
  • 0% - I might change amps, but not these amps

    Votes: 4 6.7%
  • 0% - I want to match my amps with Pre-pro and I don’t own an Outlaw Pre-Pro

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • What is a monoblock???

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Already have one or more

    Votes: 13 21.7%

  • Total voters
    60
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I think it is good for a few guys that must own monoblocks.

Also good if we truly need the power, but we are still limited by the 15 - 20 Amp outlet.

$300 x 11 amps for 7.1.4 system = $3300.

Personally if I needed 11Ch, I would do what Gene did and get the Yamaha MX5000 (street price probably around $2000).

If we don't need XLR, the Outlaw model 5000 is probably best value.
Like a mental patient, I started looking further into this and saw the price to be $379 pretty consistently. A newfound awareness of what 27 db of gain coupled with a 1.7 volt sensitivity is making me wonder about what price point you need to be at with an avr to do 1.7 volts. I'm pretty sure my old Yammy 663 gets close.

So ... I only need about $1200 for the front 3. :cool:
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Like a mental patient, I started looking further into this and saw the price to be $379 pretty consistently. A newfound awareness of what 27 db of gain coupled with a 1.7 volt sensitivity is making me wonder about what price point you need to be at with an avr to do 1.7 volts. I'm pretty sure my old Yammy 663 gets close.

So ... I only need about $1200 for the front 3. :cool:
Monoblocks are at the top of the amp food chain.

Why, you could even brag that your system sounds the best because you have "special" monoblocks while other audiophiles only have "regular" amps. :eek:

Just out of curiosity, if someone close to you offered you an ATI AT2005 in excellent condition for $1300, would you get the ATI or 3 Outlaw monoblocks?

Of course, the ATI is not monoblock so it would only a 2nd tier at best, not top of the food chain monoblock. :eek:
 
Last edited:
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Like a mental patient, I started looking further into this and saw the price to be $379 pretty consistently. A newfound awareness of what 27 db of gain coupled with a 1.7 volt sensitivity is making me wonder about what price point you need to be at with an avr to do 1.7 volts. I'm pretty sure my old Yammy 663 gets close.

So ... I only need about $1200 for the front 3. :cool:
Most AVRs should easily put out 1.7v into 10K ohms, unless they're junk. The question related to the point I was bringing up earlier is whether or not the AVR can drive the amp to peak power. The probability is high that peak power is probably something like 3db more than the likely conservative 200 watt spec, which means that the AVR needs to put out more like 3.4v without distortion to reach 400 watts. Whether or not you ever use power like that is debatable, but you did admit to being like a mental patient.

BTW, sensitivity and gain are just two different ways of representing the same parameter. By knowing the gain of an amplifier you can calculate the input voltage necessary to reach a given power level, in this case 200 watts, giving you the sensitivity. So a 400 watt amplifier with a gain of 27db would always have a sensitivity of 3.4v to reach full rated power.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Like a mental patient, I started looking further into this and saw the price to be $379 pretty consistently. A newfound awareness of what 27 db of gain coupled with a 1.7 volt sensitivity is making me wonder about what price point you need to be at with an avr to do 1.7 volts. I'm pretty sure my old Yammy 663 gets close.

So ... I only need about $1200 for the front 3. :cool:
Based on the specified 1.7 V for rated output of exactly 200 W, the gain should be 27.4323. I think Outlaw don't want to publish so many decimal points, hence the round gain of 27.

The fact is, if the gain is 27, then 1.7 V will get you 181.0529 W.

Now forget the math, I can tell you by substituting my Marantz amp (the Denon AVR won't make any difference) with the M2200, the center channel level remains practically the same, probably 0.5 dB lower at the most. So I would say if your 663 should be fine, but easy enough to check if with a spl meter just to be sure.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Most AVRs should easily put out 1.7v into 10K ohms, unless they're junk. The question related to the point I was bringing up earlier is whether or not the AVR can drive the amp to peak power. The probability is high that peak power is probably something like 3db more than the likely conservative 200 watt spec, which means that the AVR needs to put out more like 3.4v without distortion to reach 400 watts. Whether or not you ever use power like that is debatable, but you did admit to being like a mental patient.

BTW, sensitivity and gain are just two different ways of representing the same parameter. By knowing the gain of an amplifier you can calculate the input voltage necessary to reach a given power level, in this case 200 watts, giving you the sensitivity. So a 400 watt amplifier with a gain of 27db would always have a sensitivity of 3.4v to reach full rated power.
Sorry Irv, did you forget the "log" thing, because the gain 27 is in dB as you note. Your 3.4v should actually be about 2.53v.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Sorry Irv, did you forget the "log" thing, because the gain 27 is in dB as you note. Your 3.4v should actually be about 2.53v.
No, the gain is a constant, so if you want twice the power coming out it still takes twice the power coming in. The gain is just the multiplication factor on the volts. The watts are determined by the impedance of the load. Or am I missing your point?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Just out of curiosity, if someone close to you offered you an ATI
in excellent condition for $1300, would you get the ATI AT2005 or 3 Outlaw monoblocks?
That ATI looks like an MSRP of ~ $3k. A bargain at 50% off. Then again I already have a pretty capable 7 channel amp ... that I'm under utilizing.

What color is the ATI? :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
No, the gain is a constant, so if you want twice the power coming out it still takes twice the power coming in. The gain is just the multiplication factor on the volts. The watts are determined by the impedance of the load. Or am I missing your point?
It is a little more complicated..

Yes the gain is constant, but the multiple to dB is not a linear relationship as you know, and then the power formula V=(V*V*cos(phase angle))/Z has a square relationship, that is, also not linear. I can post the details of my calculations later but has to go now.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
It is a little more complicated..

Yes the gain is constant, but the multiple to dB is not a linear relationship as you know, and then the power formula V=(V*V*cos(phase angle))/Z has a square relationship, that is, also not linear. I can post the details of my calculations later but has to go now.
Absolutely, but I've never considered an audio amplifier to function precisely like that formula. The input voltage to this amp from the line-level pre-out sinks into the 10K ohm impedance on the input, and then there are (typically) three gain stages in the amplifier, and each stage may have a different input impedance and will have a different operating voltage, and the final stage (of course) has a loudspeaker as its load. I'm too lazy to even work with the difference between the input and output impedances of the amp as a black box. So I was just using a simple 3db = doubling style of calculation assuming linear gain. I'll concede that may not be especially accurate or scientific, but I'm not smart enough to express the transfer function of an audio amplifier mathematically, and I'll bow to a practicing EE. :)
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
Monoblocks are at the top of the amp food chain.

Why, you could even brag that your system sounds the best because you have "special" monoblocks while other audiophiles only have "regular" amps. :eek:

Just out of curiosity, if someone close to you offered you an ATI AT2005 in excellent condition for $1300, would you get the ATI or 3 Outlaw monoblocks?

Of course, the ATI is not monoblock so it would only a 2nd tier at best, not top of the food chain monoblock. :eek:
Me? I would get the ATI AT2005 in excellent condition for $1300.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Me? I would get the ATI AT2005 in excellent condition for $1300.
Me too, as I mentioned before, I thought the M2200 mono block is a good solution for up to 3 channels. More than that, the energized spaghetti becomes unmanageable. For me it is perfect because I want the center channel to have about the same juice that the L,R are fed and now I can go full 7.1.4 and still set Eco mode to "ON' because I won't be using any of the 9 internal amps of the X4400H.
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
Me too, as I mentioned before, I thought the M2200 mono block is a good solution for up to 3 channels. More than that, the energized spaghetti becomes unmanageable. For me it is perfect because I want the center channel to have about the same juice that the L,R are fed and now I can go full 7.1.4 and still set Eco mode to "ON' because I won't be using any of the 9 internal amps of the X4400H.
Nice. Those Outlaw amps look tempting. I have the AVR-X4400H as well.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Me too, as I mentioned before, I thought the M2200 mono block is a good solution for up to 3 channels. More than that, the energized spaghetti becomes unmanageable. For me it is perfect because I want the center channel to have about the same juice that the L,R are fed and now I can go full 7.1.4 and still set Eco mode to "ON' because I won't be using any of the 9 internal amps of the X4400H.
How many amps do you have now anyway?

Just couldn’t help it, could you? :D

That’s a sickness right there. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think you need to add a poll to this thread: how likely are you to buy this Monoblock?

A. 100%
B. 50%
C. 0% - I have no need for any more amps
D. 0% - I might change amps, but not these amps
E. 0% - I want to match my amps with Pre-pro and I don’t own an Outlaw Pre-Pro
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Absolutely, but I've never considered an audio amplifier to function precisely like that formula. The input voltage to this amp from the line-level pre-out sinks into the 10K ohm impedance on the input, and then there are (typically) three gain stages in the amplifier, and each stage may have a different input impedance and will have a different operating voltage, and the final stage (of course) has a loudspeaker as its load. I'm too lazy to even work with the difference between the input and output impedances of the amp as a black box. So I was just using a simple 3db = doubling style of calculation assuming linear gain. I'll concede that may not be especially accurate or scientific, but I'm not smart enough to express the transfer function of an audio amplifier mathematically, and I'll bow to a practicing EE. :)
As you said, the given gain is constant, at least we are going to assume it is constant. Then we can ignore the input/output impedance, different gains for the different gain stages because it is the final overall gain that determines the relationship between the input voltage and output voltage at the speaker binding posts.

Edit: I should add the following short version, that is the only totally relevant part of our conversation regarding the required input voltage for an AVR to reach 400 W (obviously this is hypothetical, no AVR can reach 400 W output except for the IHF dynamic power rating thing..)

Short version:

Because of the square relationship between Voltage output and power output, to double the output from say 200 watts to 400 watts, you don't need to double the voltage, but simply multiply it by square root 2, that is,

If 1.7 V is needed to yield 200 W into 8 ohms,
1.7 X square root of 2, that is 1.7X1.414 = 2.4 V is needed to yield 400 W into the same 8 ohm load.


You are right, there is no need to reference the dB to multiple/ratio formula, not for this purpose.

Everything below the dotted line are for someone who has nothing better to do, so I am not going to hit the delete key.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The relevant formula are:
Reference site - http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculatorVoltagePower.htm

Nomenclature:
Vout - Output voltage at speaker binding posts
Pout - Output power in watts, for an 8 ohm resistor load
Vin- Input voltage at the power amplifier input
Vg in dB - Voltage gain in dB
Vg in multiples, or ratio - Voltage gain in multiple, or ration form, that is, Vg = Vout/Vin

Vout = Vin X Vgain (in multiples)
Pout = (Vout^2)/Z
therefore Vout = SQRT(PoutXZ)

The formula to convert from Voltage gain in dB to multiples and vice versa are:

Vg in dB = 20Xlog10(Vg in multiples),where Vg in multiples = Vout/Vin
Vg in multiples = 10^(Vg in dB/20)

First, I am going to show if 1.7 Vin produces 200W, then the Vgain in dB is not 27 but about 27.43, and that's why I mentioned the log relationship.

Since Vout = SQRT(PoutXZ),for an 8 ohm load, and Pout = 200W,

Vout=SQRT(200X8) = SQRT(1600) = 40 V.

Vgain in multiples = Vout/Vin = 40/1.7 = 23.53

Vgain in dB = 20Xlog10(Vout/Vin) = 20Xlog10(23.53) = 27.43

Now, to calculate the input voltage Vin required to produce 400W, keeping impedance the same, i.e. 8 ohms, you are correct that we do not need to worry about whether the gain is in multiples or dB because it is assumed to be a constant.

In this case we simply use the power formula again, that is:

Pout = (Vout^2)/Z,
Vout = SQRT(PoutXZ) = SQRT (400X8) = SQRT(3200) = 56.5685

Vin = Vout/Vgain in multiples = 56.5685/23.53 = 2.4 V.

To summarize:

1) For rated output of 200 W into 8 ohms with Vin = 1.7V, and Voltage gain of 27.43 dB, the output voltage will be 40V.

2) Doubling the output to 400 W, while keeping impedance and voltage gain the same, that is, 8 ohms and 27 dB, Vin will be 2.4 V.

3) Outlaw's specified Voltage gain of 27 dB, 1.7 V sensitivity for full output (200 W 8 ohms) is an approximation. If the sensitivity is actually 1.7V for 200 W into 8 ohms, the gain should be 27.43 dB.

I always develop my own spreadsheet for quick calculations, but the linked site above seems to have all the formula one can think off, complete with calculators that always checked out fine with my spreadsheets.
 
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Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
But...but....but....the money! :D
LOL. Yeah, I know, I know. Tightwads like me. But at least these M2200 amps are priced reasonably, built well, don't take up much space and are lighter in weight.

These amps would impress the audiophiles out there too. Believe me, I've got one right across the street from me. He's the one who talked me into expensive separates 20 years ago. Oh brother.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
How many amps do you have now anyway?

Just couldn’t help it, could you? :D

That’s a sickness right there. :D
Only 3 power amps for the HT system, and only 11 channels in total, and only 7 channels in use, for now..
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I think you need to add a poll to this thread: how likely are you to buy this Monoblock?

A. 100%
B. 50%
C. 0% - I have no need for any more amps
D. 0% - I might change amps, but not these amps
E. 0% - I want to match my amps with Pre-pro and I don’t own an Outlaw Pre-Pro
Good idea, too late now, unless @Steve81 can help lol!!
 

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