The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[PENG]

YMMV of course

That is very true especially when not done in AB quickly using the same contents. As ADTG quoted me saying, the Denon mid range AVR seems to do better in bass than my Marantz ex-flagship prepro, in terms of clarity and tightness. Overall, I am not sure if there is a difference because going by memory is not reliable, that's been proved over and over again in experiments including those by reputable people like Dr. Toole. Subjectively, I do believe once you get pass the point of diminishing return, it is the DSP that makes things different, not the amplifiers (pre/power).

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

You're making gross generalizations. Assessing aging in electronics has to be done on a case-by-case basis, and the only appropriate way is by bench testing. Electronics don't have expiration dates like food and drugs, but environmental factors and manufacturing variations can make some components degrade before others that are ostensibly identical.

Excellent points. Regarding the non-existent ‘expiration dates’ for electronic components, I was taught that electrolytic capacitors do eventually reach an ‘end of life’. However, does that mean that aging electro caps can alter the sound? I’ve heard arguments on both sides of the issue, but the listening tests before replacement and after replacement were always sighted and not volume matched. So, do we really know?

 

[Verdinut]

When we purchase audio equipment to replace older one, we always have that anticipation in our mind that the new stuff should somehow perform better than the previous, but it's not always the case.
In any replacement situation, we all hope for at least an as good performance, or a better one if the new equipment is of a technically better design, providing more dynamic headroom and hopefully more transparency. Sometimes the improvement is obvious, sometimes it's debatable.
Most of the time, there's definitely room for more noticeable improvement on the weakest link, the speaker.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Excellent points. Regarding the non-existent ‘expiration dates’ for electronic components, I was taught that electrolytic capacitors do eventually reach an ‘end of life’. However, does that mean that aging electro caps can alter the sound? I’ve heard arguments on both sides of the issue, but the listening tests before replacement and after replacement were always sighted and not volume matched. So, do we really know?

I don't understand how capacitor aging can affect sound quality in a subtle way unless they're in an analog signal path. Most aren't in solid state electronics. But if the aging of the caps significantly impairs a power supply stage I suppose it could impact sound quality in some seemingly random way. But I've never experienced it.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I don't understand how capacitor aging can affect sound quality in a subtle way unless they're in an analog signal path. Most aren't in solid state electronics. But if the aging of the caps significantly impairs a power supply stage I suppose it could impact sound quality in some seemingly random way. But I've never experienced it.

If the amp is not DC Coupled then I suppose old caps in the signal path could affect the sound. But still, objective listening tests would have to be performed.

 

[RichB]

I don't understand how capacitor aging can affect sound quality in a subtle way unless they're in an analog signal path. Most aren't in solid state electronics. But if the aging of the caps significantly impairs a power supply stage I suppose it could impact sound quality in some seemingly random way. But I've never experienced it.

I purchased a used Outlaw 7500 a few years back and it had power-on popping and a lot of hum. It was shipped to ATI for repair and caps were among the repaired items but I cannot locate the repair list. The issues were corrected.
Obviously, there was a lot of time between listening sessions but I don't recall noticing any sonic improvements, other than the absence of buzz in the rear channels.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

I purchased a used Outlaw 7500 a few years back and it had power-on popping and a lot of hum. It was shipped to ATI for repair and caps were among the repaired items but I cannot locate the repair list. The issues were corrected.
Obviously, there was a lot of time between listening sessions but I don't recall noticing any sonic improvements, other than the absence of buzz in the rear channels.

- Rich

That's pretty much what I would expect in a solid state amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Coming from the Piorneer AX10i to the Yamaha 5100 I can say a large number of my dvd/blu ray soundtracks have gained a big, if not major improvement in the change.

We all have different experiences. For some, it may be going from an old Yamaha to a new Denon or new Marantz or nea Anthem. For me it was going from an 8YR high-end Denon AVP-A1 to a new Yamaha 5100. And for me it wasn’t the Surround sound or anything else; it was the Center dialogue that somehow seem a lot clearer. The bass and everything else seem equal.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's pretty much what I would expect in a solid state amp.

I agree. I have never experienced any change in amp and analog preamp sounds.

 

[Bookmark]

The comment was not really meant as a brand/model thing. Mostly that the Yamaha being relatively new and the Pioneer being nigh on 15 years old, things have moved on. There are new surround codecs and improvements to the old ones, HD codecs, lossless. Room corrections, independent cross overs, more options generally. New connection options like HDMI, better up mixers, faster processors, better position handling and steering. Bass management options.

Consequently the belief, right or wrong, is that things which still must have been present in the original mix are now revealed for me to appreciate, where as previously they may have been there, but more subdued.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

One thing AVR's have going for them is that in most cases their amplifier won't be stressed from outputting bass frequencies. They are designed around the assumption that a subwoofer will be used and the "full range" internal amplifier won't have to deal with frequencies below 80Hz (seems to be where most people cross over). That spares the amps from all the nasty impedance spikes and high current loads. I haven't bought a receiver in years but I'm guessing most aren't rated for 4 ohms stable on all channels driven.

A 2 channel amp should be designed to deal with those current loads brought on by low frequencies.

I can only speak to my own needs but I see greater longevity out of an integrated amp than a receiver. My source material for stereo listening likely won't change for a very long time, whereas HT is a perpetually moving target. It pains me to see receivers in perfect condition that once sold for several hundred dollars on Craigslist for 50 bucks because they don't have HDMI.

 

[TechHDS]

One thing AVR's have going for them is that in most cases their amplifier won't be stressed from outputting bass frequencies. They are designed around the assumption that a subwoofer will be used and the "full range" internal amplifier won't have to deal with frequencies below 80Hz (seems to be where most people cross over). That spares the amps from all the nasty impedance spikes and high current loads. I haven't bought a receiver in years but I'm guessing most aren't rated for 4 ohms stable on all channels driven.

A 2 channel amp should be designed to deal with those current loads brought on by low frequencies.

I can only speak to my own needs but I see greater longevity out of an integrated amp than a receiver. My source material for stereo listening likely won't change for a very long time, whereas HT is a perpetually moving target. It pains me to see receivers in perfect condition that once sold for several hundred dollars on Craigslist for 50 bucks because they don't have HDMI.

Good post one of few I have seen on AVR’s dealing with low end output on AVR’s. I was just researching that this past weekend I found that just about all AVR’s, bass cutoff is right at 90 or about that. With a +/- of 10dbs for adjustment on top of that most users L/R mains have 8” or smaller drivers. Trying get any real bass output for AVR’s can be challenging without having to add a sub.

Mike

 

[panteragstk]

That is very true especially when not done in AB quickly using the same contents. As ADTG quoted me saying, the Denon mid range AVR seems to do better in bass than my Marantz ex-flagship prepro, in terms of clarity and tightness. Overall, I am not sure if there is a difference because going by memory is not reliable, that's been proved over and over again in experiments including those by reputable people like Dr. Toole. Subjectively, I do believe once you get pass the point of diminishing return, it is the DSP that makes things different, not the amplifiers (pre/power).

I know the new 4400 has SubEQ HT, but did your Marantz have that? Maybe that is the difference you are hearing since you have multiple subs?

 

[PENG]

I know the new 4400 has SubEQ HT, but did your Marantz have that? Maybe that is the difference you are hearing since you have multiple subs?

AV8801 does have SubEQ HT, same as the X4400H as well. So on paper they both have XT32 SubEQHT. To be clear, it's not an AB comparison, so it is very subjective and memory dependent. Also, the Marantz cannot be used with the App, and if I compare the REW graphs, without using the App, the curves do look closer. Again, in pure direct, I would really like to have some open minded die hard separatists in the room for some simple single blind tests using just an AV-X3400H against their separates.

 

[panteragstk]

AV8801 have SubEQ HT, same as the X4400H as well. So on paper they both have XT32 SubEQHT. To be clear, it's not an AB comparison, so it is very subjective and memory dependent. Also, the Marantz cannot be used with the App, and if I compare the REW graphs, without using the App, the curves do look closer. Again, in pure direct, I would really like to have some open minded die hard separatists in the room for some simple single blind tests using just an AV-X3400H against their separates.

Ah, OK. I couldn't see the SubEQ HT on the Marantz at a glance.

 

[Bookmark]

I believe with the current/recent crop of Processors and AVRs we have reach something of a plateau in Atmos and DTS:X. The WAF and even perhaps generally, are not disposed to endless arrays of speakers in the living room. Dedicated rooms will always have different priorities. For the living room however, it is probably becoming the domain of the bars, wireless surrounds and other less intrusive solutions.

Yes we will have eARC, Hdmi 2.1 and beyond with potentially higher frame rates. However sonically there does not seem much on the near horizon and attempts to move beyond 4K will be prohibitively expensive for the foreseeable future. eARC is possibly a blind alley since it can already be subverted by dongles/devices using the existing 2.0a/b connections. We might see improvements from the likes of Dirac and other room correction alternatives, but again unless it is a recognizable improvement there will not be a great demand.

For myself I am much more concerned by the content quality and the tendancy, like previously with music, to see the spectre of low quality/bitrate consumption resurge. Disney in particular I view as a current offender presenting a sub par experience sonically on its recent blockbusters. I worry that OK is good enough and that since some regard watching on a phone/tablet as HD/UHD we all get to suffer the consequences.

There is a place for streaming content, but if it becomes the only option then I fully believe this is a bad future and one a decade or two later we will come to regret. Physical ownership is not the same as a cloud store subject to the whims and vagaries of business acumen and copyright holders.

As always, other opinions are available

 

[RichB]

TV apps are very good on LG displays, however, ARC is still unreliable due to handshaking and poor implementation and standards. eARC no longer requires CEC handshaking and supports lossless audio including ATMOS. Streaming 4K/UHD/DV provides a significant image quality improvement. Apple/Amazon/Netflix has made huge inroads and changed the way many watch content. Hopefully, 2019 displays will include eARC support.

- Rich

 

[Bookmark]

eARC requires both sides for it to work and it doesn't as yet. However it is unnecessary to purchase both a capable AVR and display just for eARC when a $50 dongle can accomplish the same thing with the same apps now.

Yes Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc are ok, but they don't match the quality of a Blu ray let alone a 4K UHD and saying it's Atmos does not make it full bitrate, lossless. Bandwidth is the current limitation and will likely remain so for many for quite some time.

 

[PENG]

TV apps are very good on LG displays, however, ARC is still unreliable due to handshaking and poor implementation and standards. eARC no longer requires CEC handshaking and supports lossless audio including ATMOS. Streaming 4K/UHD/DV provides a significant image quality improvement. Apple/Amazon/Netflix has made huge inroads and changed the way many watch content. Hopefully, 2019 displays will include eARC support.

- Rich

Agreed, I would add that eARC is probably redundant and not needed for most people because only 2017/18 AVRs will come with eARC or cannot upgraded via firmware, yet 2017/18 models already can pass the latest audio/video codecs/formats so the latest external 4K devices with the latest audio codecs/formats can be connected to them directly. The irony is, those who can benefit from eARC are those with 2016 and earlier AVRs that are not eARC capable and cannot be upgraded via firmware. May be I am missing something..

 

[RichB]

eARC requires both sides for it to work and it doesn't as yet. However it is unnecessary to purchase both a capable AVR and display just for eARC when a $50 dongle can accomplish the same thing with the same apps now.

What dongle eliminates the need for [e]ARC running the TV streaming applications?

- Rich