The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Out-Of-Phase]

I gotta tell ya, I get amusement out of all of you "recovering audiophiles" who somehow saw the light and now are it-all-sounds-the-same audio atheists. Cool. How any of you fell for cable nonsense, green CD paint pens, SACDs sound better, or whatever other myth you fell for is beyond me, but it does seem sort of disingenuous to think now that you're above all of that, and it justifies a superior attitude about what some other people like to obsess about. Supportive guidance is one thing, condescension is another. It is not some sort of mental illness any more than any other infatuation is, any more than say entering auto detailing competitions are. I think it's great to profess the advantages of evidence and proof over simple opinion, and I'm generally an advocate of that, but to twist the whole thing into some sort of evidence of mental illness seems misguided, even in jest.

I just want clean transparent sound for not much money. That’s all. And as you already know that is attainable today.

Over the years as a lurker, I’ve learned a lot from your posts on this forum and I thank you. You’ve helped a lot people giving them practical, common sense advice based on your experience and knowledge.

Audiophiles - mental illness, No.
Former audiophiles or never been audiophiles - arrogant, No.

‘All sounds the same atheists’ as you put it, is an over generalization. Yes, I’ve met some over the years, but luckily not on this forum. The other extreme is what has already been shown in this thread regarding expensive, boutique, elitist amplifier companies making wild, unsubstantiated claims regarding the sonic signatures of their products with outrageous price tags to match. As as far arrogance goes, how many Krell and Levinson sales people did I meet over the years who came across to me as the smartest people in the room with the attitude that if you listen to music and don’t have a 120 pound Levinson amp in your living room, you’re an complete idiot. Too many of those I’m afraid.

It’s time to fight back.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Over the years as a lurker, I’ve learned a lot from your posts on this forum and I thank you. You’ve helped a lot people giving them practical, common sense advice based on your experience and knowledge.

Thanks. I think that's the most meaningful compliment I've received in a long while, and I appreciate it.

 

[lovinthehd]

@Irvrobinson please expand on "I gotta tell ya, I get amusement out of all of you "recovering audiophiles" who somehow saw the light and now are it-all-sounds-the-same audio atheists" . This would be as opposed to an amp listener with religious type beliefs in particular sound signatures per amp?

I too have learned a lot from your posts and appreciate them.

 

[Irvrobinson]

@Irvrobinson please expand on "I gotta tell ya, I get amusement out of all of you "recovering audiophiles" who somehow saw the light and now are it-all-sounds-the-same audio atheists" . This would be as opposed to an amp listener with religious type beliefs in particular sound signatures per amp?

I too have learned a lot from your posts and appreciate them.

Thanks.

It's not that I have a problem with the all-amps-sound-the-same part, because in comparison tests I've never been able to discern differences in sighted comparison tests, no less the blinded ones I've participated in. My problem is with the absolute assertions and what sounds like condescension in the conversation. I suppose that could be warranted in the case of power cables, digital cables, cable lifters, and some other stupid tweaks, but active analog and digital components have differences that could be in the realm of reasonable discussion. Two of the most technical contributors here, Gene and TLSGuy think there might be audible differences. I'm in the "might be" category, but I have made buying decisions based on what I feel rather than what I think I know. Maybe it's the condescension that rubs me the wrong way and that's all it is.

 

[PENG]

I'm making a general statement. For example: I can expect that a Shure M97xE sounds different than an Ortofon M2 Red, because after all, they're physically different. I would also expect, within reason, that an Ortofon 2M Red would sound similar to another Ortofon 2M Red. In tube or solid state amps, I expect that any divergence of circuit design between contender and reference could also produce some divergence in sound between the units.

If the design goal is transparency, if done well then the final product should be transparent enough to humans because we are not dealing with rocket science here, but something that is quite matured. Just because the design is different, does not mean it would sound different to normal people. Even I can download a schematic and BOM from the internet and build an amp that can sound transparent (that is, simply amplify the magnitude of the input signal, without altering it in other audible ways) and be verified by a battery of measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have made buying decisions based on what I feel rather than what I think I know.

How we feel may be more important than anything else.

If the only goal is good sound quality, I think something like the $1,000 Denon X3400 (often on sale for $599 new) will do it for most cases.

But for many of us, it’s more than that.

That’s why we get the $1500 X4400 or more expensive AVRs and separates like the Marantz AV8802.

 

[2channel lover]

Yeah, just visual bling bling.

Those bling might cause a few people to hear things that aren't there - and soon their money.

I did ask them how much they could sell me the McIntosh MX122 Pre-pro. They said $6,300 (MSRP is $7K).

I said hells no thanks and thinking that even my Denon X3000 AVR sounds just as good minus the blue bling.

It's cool that people could still come to this local store in little OKC and audition all they want. I mean OKC isn't exactly a big city like Dallas, LA, NYC, Chicago, etc. But they still have all these high-end gears like B&W Diamond, Martin Logan, McIntosh, Arcam, Rotel, Marantz.

Impressive that was...Our Perimeter BB/MAG has a similar set up and B&W has two other D dealers intown...we really have maybe 3 local highend audio shops still standing in metro ATL.

I still love the 802d3 and thought the 805 5.2 room they had set up was very impressive but once you branch out a bit, you see that B&W is a good product, but you pay a lot for the brand with the diamond series.

 

[sterling shoote]

Impressive that was...Our Perimeter BB/MAG has a similar set up and B&W has two other D dealers intown...we really have maybe 3 local highend audio shops still standing in metro ATL.

I still love the 802d3 and thought the 805 5.2 room they had set up was very impressive but once you branch out a bit, you see that B&W is a good product, but you pay a lot for the brand with the diamond series.

Is ATL Atlanta? I lived there 43 years ago. In Buckhead there was Peachtree Record Shop and a Best Buy like store called Hi-Fi Buys. Around the corner was a high end shop. I remember they had the Vfet Sony 8500 Series, which sold for about $1000 a component. That was about a months salary for me back then. I settled for their 5500 Series 50 watt per channel power amp and preamp at about $500 each.

 

[PENG]

But for many of us, it’s more than that.

The practical and logical part of me has told me clearly and repeatedly that my next upgrade should be to sell or give away the AV8801, and buy an outgoing (around Christmas the earliest) AVR-3400H or SR6012 for well under CD1K, but my "more than that" part keep urging me to watch out for close out deals on the AV8802A or SR7012. Isn't this weird, I mean, this is the same me. May be I should wait until the 2020 Christmas and see what happens.

 

[3db]

The practical and logical part of me has told me clearly and repeatedly that my next upgrade should be to sell or give away the AV8801, and buy an outgoing (around Christmas the earliest) AVR-3400H or SR6012 for well under CD1K, but my "more than that" part keep urging me to watch out for close out deals on the AV8802A or SR7012. Isn't this weird, I mean, this is the same me. May be I should wait until the 2020 Christmas and see what happens.

There are meds to help unify a "split brain"

 

[PENG]

There are meds to help unify a "split brain"

I do have one already, the empty wallet.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

How we feel may be more important than anything else.

If the only goal is good sound quality, I think something like the $1,000 Denon X3400 (often on sale for $599 new) will do it for most cases.

But for many of us, it’s more than that.

That’s why we get the $1500 X4400 or more expensive AVRs and separates like the Marantz AV8802.

I purchased the AVR-X4400H because it has a MM phono section. I still will spin some vinyl once and a while. By the way, no need to spend thousands on a separate phono amp, that Denon AVR is clean and transparent.

 

[3db]

I purchased the AVR-X4400H because it has a MM phono section. I still will spin some vinyl once and a while. By the way, no need to spend thousands on a separate phono amp, that Denon AVR is clean and transparent.

I feel the same for the phono stages on all my Yamahas. Nice and clean.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I purchased the AVR-X4400H because it has a MM phono section. I still will spin some vinyl once and a while. By the way, no need to spend thousands on a separate phono amp, that Denon AVR is clean and transparent.

I never got into this old vinyl stuff so I never needed to use the Phono feature. But good to know. I figured it was pretty good since everything is awesome.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The practical and logical part of me has told me clearly and repeatedly that my next upgrade should be to sell or give away the AV8801, and buy an outgoing (around Christmas the earliest) AVR-3400H or SR6012 for well under CD1K, but my "more than that" part keep urging me to watch out for close out deals on the AV8802A or SR7012. Isn't this weird, I mean, this is the same me. May be I should wait until the 2020 Christmas and see what happens.

You and me both brother!

You don't know how many times I've looked at the AV8802 and now AV8805!

The most cost-effective thing to do is buy the X3400 on sale for $599. I could have also gotten the X4300 last christmas on clearance from my distributor for about $450. But no.

In the mean time, I still have a 10-year-old Denon AVP-A1HDCI and 10-year-old AVR-5308CI that have HDMI-Handshake issues with any new HDMI components like Direct TV.

So I'm just waiting for these old machines to die. :

Tempting to get a shiny new Marantz AV8805 from my distributor, but I just can't when my 10-year-old machines still work!

I guess we still have that old "audiophile" in us that just won't let go - knowing that a Denon X3400 sounds just as good, but we just can't buy it. Just can't do it.

Why?

Because as good as it is, we just know that a Denon X3400 will be too boring.

I think this is the part where RichB and <Eargiant call me out as a hypocrite who doesn't practice what he preaches.

 

[snakeeyes]

You and me both brother!

You don't know how many times I've looked at the AV8802 and now AV8805!

The most cost-effective thing to do is buy the X3400 on sale for $599. I could have also gotten the X4300 last christmas on clearance from my distributor for about $450. But no.

In the mean time, I still have a 10-year-old Denon AVP-A1HDCI and 10-year-old AVR-5308CI that have HDMI-Handshake issues with any new HDMI components like Direct TV.

So I'm just waiting for these old machines to die. :

Tempting to get a shiny new Marantz AV8805 from my distributor, but I just can't when my 10-year-old machines still work!

I guess we still have that old "audiophile" in us that just won't let go - knowing that a Denon X3400 sounds just as good, but we just can't buy it. Just can't do it.

Why?

Because as good as it is, we just know that a Denon X3400 will be too boring.

What feature are you lacking that requires upgrade? HDMI2.0a?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What feature are you lacking that requires upgrade? HDMI2.0a?

Yeah, something higher than HDMI 1.3 so that Direct TV will work.

But that's it. I have to use a HDMI-to-Component converter now, so really not a huge deal.

The point some guys were making was that "separates" don't get "obsolete" or outdated like AVRs. But that's 100% false.

Separates will become obsolete or outdated just as much as AVRs. You just pay a lot more for the separates.

So what would I do if my Denon AVP-A1HDCI and AVR-5308CI were to malfunction tomorrow?

 

[PENG]

What feature are you lacking that requires upgrade? HDMI2.0a?

I would say HDCP could also be the issue if 4K is involved.

 

[snakeeyes]

Yeah, something higher than HDMI 1.3 so that Direct TV will work.

But that's it. I have to use a HDMI-to-Component converter now, so really not a huge deal.

First world problems.
I like to follow all the feature enhancements on Yamaha and Marantz but now that I’m on HDMI 2.0a, I wouldn’t be able to justify an AVR upgrade over speaker and sub upgrades for several years (8k Content would need to exist, or something ). My Yamaha 2060 is a great AVR.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, something higher than HDMI 1.3 so that Direct TV will work.

But that's it. I have to use a HDMI-to-Component converter now, so really not a huge deal.

The point some guys were making was that "separates" don't get "obsolete" or outdated like AVRs. But that's 100% false.

Separates will become obsolete or outdated just as much as AVRs. You just pay a lot more for the separates.

So what would I do if my Denon AVP-A1HDCI and AVR-5308CI were to malfunction tomorrow?

I may be a bit thick this morning but what about DirecTV requires more than HDMI 1.3?