Audyssey killing high frequencies

[yepimonfire]

This is probably the 10th time running Audyssey, and it consistently rolls everything off above 8khz, even on the flat setting, to the point where 17khz is about -10dB.

I have no idea why it’s doing this. I’ve attached measurements, two are at the mlp, the steeply rolled off one is Audyssey flat, the one with the minor roll off (-5dB @17khz) is with it off, and the one that looks near ruler flat above 500hz out to 20khz is a close mic measurement. Obviously, the speakers aren’t bright, so there’s absolutely no need for the roll off.

The measurements were taken with the same Audyssey mic used for the calibration, at the exact position, so I’m not sure why Audyssey is “seeing” a bright top end that it thinks it needs to correct

Any clues?

 

[everettT]

Are you using an audyessey mic to take measurements with software? If so you will not get true readings fyi.

 

[yepimonfire]

Are you using an audyessey mic to take measurements with software? If so you will not get true readings fyi.

I’ve always used the Audyssey mic, according to several tests done by avsforum members it’s within 2dB of the omnimic. It’s worth mentioning the speakers sound as rolled off as the graph suggests.

 

[everettT]

I’ve always used the Audyssey mic, according to several tests done by avsforum members it’s within 2dB of the omnimic. It’s worth mentioning the speakers sound as rolled off as the graph suggests.

You have no calibration file, so measurements are still not accurate. You should bite the bullet and get a mic since you like to take measurements.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Without a non-Audyssey baseline measurement, we can’t tell if the situation is Audyssey or your speakers.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[TheWarrior]

Pssst.... this is what Audyssey IS DESIGNED TO DO!

I see Floyd Toole's 'Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems' was a bit too long for some.

Audyssey was based on the Cinema Industries 'X-Curve' which was a prescribed auditorium response that did not adequately compensate for high frequency propagation loss over the much larger distances between speaker-listener in a Cinema Auditorium vs a home theater. This results in a forced high frequency roll off.

If you read from Toole, you know that our Home theaters are one room, but two sound fields. This results from the large wavelengths of bass frequencies interacting with the boundaries of the room. There is a measurable frequency in any room where bass frequencies stop being omni directional, and gain an increasing forward bias, known as the transition frequency. Below it, the room is firmly in control of what bass you will hear, and when you will hear it. DSP can only correct a portion of this issue.

Above transition, the shrinking wavelengths must be properly aimed at the listeners. Audyssey has no idea what size room it is in, where it's speakers and listeners are located, or what speakers are used. Those shrinking wavelengths result in an increasing directivity meaning that the further off axis the listener is, the larger the change in SPL will be. DSP cannot correct this. Yet Audyssey is attempting to, and your measurements are proving it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Good grief get a proper mic for your measuring....

 

[TLS Guy]

Yep, just use Audyssey for level balancing and distance and NOTHING else. Never ever use it for frequency correction. A good system in a good room does not need Audyssey which just ruins good systems. If you do have a troublesome room then correct by ear, that will be much more effective than Audyssey.

 

[everettT]

I’ve always used the Audyssey mic, according to several tests done by avsforum members it’s within 2dB of the omnimic. It’s worth mentioning the speakers sound as rolled off as the graph suggests.

So you should update all your posts that include those incorrect measurements. You wouldn't want them to be misinterpreted.

 

[yepimonfire]

You have no calibration file, so measurements are still not accurate. You should bite the bullet and get a mic since you like to take measurements.

There is a calibration file on avsforum I use.

 

[yepimonfire]

Yep, just use Audyssey for level balancing and distance and NOTHING else. Never ever use it for frequency correction. A good system in a good room does not need Audyssey which just ruins good systems. If you do have a troublesome room then correct by ear, that will be much more effective than Audyssey.

I just need the bass problem fixed really. I may just have to bite the bullet and go with external amplification and something like a minidsp.

 

[Epetti]

You could try the Flat setting instead of Reference for the Audyssey curve. Also, if you have a newer receiver you can download the Audyssey app. It allows you to shape the curve as well as to cut off at what frequency it runs its' correction. For instance, I have Audyssey running equalization up to 300Hz to help with the bass response, but then leaving the speakers alone after that.

 

[Steve81]

There is a calibration file on avsforum I use.

That still leaves you with a mic having unknown manufacturing tolerances and a calibration file made by a hobbyist that presumably doesn't have access to a wide sampling of Audyssey mics to be able to make a useful "generic" calibration file. Maybe in combination with your ears, that's OK to get your system up and running to your liking. OTOH, if you want the measurements you post here to be taken without some massive grains of salt, like lovinthehd said, get a real mic.

 

[everettT]

I just need the bass problem fixed really. I may just have to bite the bullet and go with external amplification and something like a minidsp.

If you go with the minidsp, your gonna need a real mic FWIW. If your just concerned with the low frequencies, as mentioned, don't eq anything else.

With your listening habits, your bass issues are not going to get insanely better with external amplification or eq, you need a better sub/s and start using a higher crossover.
Your current findings of your mains and sub are not objective.

 

[yepimonfire]

You could try the Flat setting instead of Reference for the Audyssey curve. Also, if you have a newer receiver you can download the Audyssey app. It allows you to shape the curve as well as to cut off at what frequency it runs its' correction. For instance, I have Audyssey running equalization up to 300Hz to help with the bass response, but then leaving the speakers alone after that.

I’ve had issues with the app doing more harm then good compared to the receiver.

 

[VonMagnum]

Yep, just use Audyssey for level balancing and distance and NOTHING else. Never ever use it for frequency correction. A good system in a good room does not need Audyssey which just ruins good systems. If you do have a troublesome room then correct by ear, that will be much more effective than Audyssey.

Correct by EAR? Audyssey "ruins" good systems? My god.... You must be an "audiophile"

 

[Sef_Makaro]

If I remember right, some AVRs have a “Theater EQ” or “Cinema EQ” that rolls off the high end too, doubling the problem.

 

[VonMagnum]

Audyssey has a "flat" mode that doesn't roll off the highs. It's easily selected between "Reference", "Flat" and "Off" in my Marantz AVR menu. If anything, Audyssey INCREASED the treble in my system to the point where "flat" sounds too harsh compared to "off" for a lot of music (sibilance increased). "Reference" still has more treble than "off" here, but it generally sounds good (dialog clearer, etc.).

It was too harsh my first try. I moved my main speakers a bit and tried again and it sounds great now without resorting to "bass only". Even so, it's not night and day from 'off' so the idea that it automatically "ruins" the sound seems a bit absurd to make such a generalization. Certainly, bass is a fair bit more even and 20Hz is now down just 5dB from reference with my relatively ancient sub from 1995 and it's flat at 22Hz.

My only real complaint about Audyssey is how long it takes to do another measurement. If I added a second sub, it would be nice if I could just have it take the measurement for the added subwoofer (and how it relates to the other subwoofer) instead of starting from scratch on everything when it's everything else that stands to get a potentially worse result (hard to put mic in the exact places that worked well and you never know how a dB or two could make the sound harsher or whatever).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Audyssey has a "flat" mode that doesn't roll off the highs. It's easily selected between "Reference", "Flat" and "Off" in my Marantz AVR menu. If anything, Audyssey INCREASED the treble in my system to the point where "flat" sounds too harsh compared to "off" for a lot of music (sibilance increased). "Reference" still has more treble than "off" here, but it generally sounds good (dialog clearer, etc.).

It was too harsh my first try. I moved my main speakers a bit and tried again and it sounds great now without resorting to "bass only". Even so, it's not night and day from 'off' so the idea that it automatically "ruins" the sound seems a bit absurd to make such a generalization. Certainly, bass is a fair bit more even and 20Hz is now down just 5dB from reference with my relatively ancient sub from 1995 and it's flat at 22Hz.

My only real complaint about Audyssey is how long it takes to do another measurement. If I added a second sub, it would be nice if I could just have it take the measurement for the added subwoofer (and how it relates to the other subwoofer) instead of starting from scratch on everything when it's everything else that stands to get a potentially worse result (hard to put mic in the exact places that worked well and you never know how a dB or two could make the sound harsher or whatever).

So far L/R bypass has been working with my Marantz, although I limited audyssey to
Respectfully, I’m going to recommend instead of adding one sub, to update and add 2 newer more capable ones. I can’t imagine one single sub from 1995 that’s anywhere near the performance of today’s subs. And considering your penchant for movies...just sayin.

And yes. Audyssey is painfully slow and clunky. But my experience hasn’t been horrible overall.

 

[VonMagnum]

Really, I thought people were beyond audiophile hype these days. It's NEWER so it MUST be better? Yeah, the newer subs are SMALLER and/or play lower for the same size with longer excursion drivers and more power (Class D amps). Sure Def Tech exagerrated specs then and now (they advertised 15Hz on this one, but in reality it did 24Hz in my old house with >5000 cubic feet at about the half setting and does 21Hz in this one at about half that space and 1/3 on the dial), but 21Hz isn't terrible (it drops below that, but with Audyssey no longer drops as fast), especially given there's virtually no musical content below that (save a 32' pipe organ stop that is inaudible and doesn't produce tons of pressure even in a real church unless you're standing near it). Movies? I don't know. Do want to shake the wall for things I can't hear? Maybe I'm missing something, but if I am, I suspect I'd need two Ultra 16s to really find out with 14-16Hz performance to get more than a note or two below 21Hz. Maybe a newer sub would sound "tighter" but comparing the sub to the T-45 I don't hear "boomy" sound from the sub (probably because the parts associated with "speed" are at higher frequencies so as long as you don't play your larger driver sub at 200Hz, you probably won't suffer as much as you might think). Either that or my Carvers (10" woofers) are boomy too and I'm just used to boomy bass as all the musical comparisons I've done are between the Carvers that play to 27Hz and the T-45s that play to 35Hz. Those aren't movies, but "boomy" isn't as noticeable with an explosion as it is with a bass guitar or what not.

But hey, if you want to send me an extra $1000 so I can buy TWO SVS SB-3000s, I'll gladly donate this one to Goodwill.

I also wondered how much tower speakers had improved since 2005 (or 1995 for my Carver AL-III ribbons) and got a chance to find out with my new PSB X1Ts I bought when I couldn't find more T-45s at first (they are now rear surround, but were up front for awhile to compare, but they fit between the doorway without blocking it in the back and the old ones have exact matching drivers in the front/side sound stage). Oddly, they sound nearly indistinguishable from my older PSB T-45s. Actually, given it's an update to the same lineup and PSB always had neutral sound, now that I think about it's not really odd at all. Shouldn't they be night and day better too? What? Room modes cause problems then and now? Speakers have had +/-3 dB response since the mid 1980s? Magic doesn't actually exist in green CD markers either? Damn. I actually wonder why I bothered to get tower speakers for the front if I'm just going to cross at 80Hz to a sub anyway (the B15 bookshelf speakers I had before in the front played fine to 60Hz so it seems moot to get speakers that play flat to 35Hz if I'm not going to use them, but they "look" more impressive.