Audyssey killing high frequencies

[KEW]

Really, I thought people were beyond audiophile hype these days. It's NEWER so it MUST be better?

First I generally agree with you post, so don't take this wrong.
Your post made me reflect on a the state of the art of speakers over the years and there are two places where I feel speakers have made decisive improvements since the early 80's - horns and metal tweeters!
Both of these were excessively harsh to my ear then, the metal tweeters made great improvements when they used materials with higher breakup frequencies than aluminium, but even some of the recent Al tweeters have resolved this (maybe through use of alloys?). SVS Ultras and KEF LS50 come to mind as modern Al tweeters I can live with.
For horns, the latest offerings from Klipsch and JBL are are ones I know to be so much easier on the ears than the older ones that I no longer consider horns something to avoid!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Really, I thought people were beyond audiophile hype these days. It's NEWER so it MUST be better? Yeah, the newer subs are SMALLER and/or play lower for the same size with longer excursion drivers and more power (Class D amps). Sure Def Tech exagerrated specs then and now (they advertised 15Hz on this one, but in reality it did 24Hz in my old house with >5000 cubic feet at about the half setting and does 21Hz in this one at about half that space and 1/3 on the dial), but 21Hz isn't terrible (it drops below that, but with Audyssey no longer drops as fast), especially given there's virtually no musical content below that (save a 32' pipe organ stop that is inaudible and doesn't produce tons of pressure even in a real church unless you're standing near it). Movies? I don't know. Do want to shake the wall for things I can't hear? Maybe I'm missing something, but if I am, I suspect I'd need two Ultra 16s to really find out with 14-16Hz performance to get more than a note or two below 21Hz. Maybe a newer sub would sound "tighter" but comparing the sub to the T-45 I don't hear "boomy" sound from the sub (probably because the parts associated with "speed" are at higher frequencies so as long as you don't play your larger driver sub at 200Hz, you probably won't suffer as much as you might think). Either that or my Carvers (10" woofers) are boomy too and I'm just used to boomy bass as all the musical comparisons I've done are between the Carvers that play to 27Hz and the T-45s that play to 35Hz. Those aren't movies, but "boomy" isn't as noticeable with an explosion as it is with a bass guitar or what not.

But hey, if you want to send me an extra $1000 so I can buy TWO SVS SB-3000s, I'll gladly donate this one to Goodwill.

I also wondered how much tower speakers had improved since 2005 (or 1995 for my Carver AL-III ribbons) and got a chance to find out with my new PSB X1Ts I bought when I couldn't find more T-45s at first (they are now rear surround, but were up front for awhile to compare, but they fit between the doorway without blocking it in the back and the old ones have exact matching drivers in the front/side sound stage). Oddly, they sound nearly indistinguishable from my older PSB T-45s. Actually, given it's an update to the same lineup and PSB always had neutral sound, now that I think about it's not really odd at all. Shouldn't they be night and day better too? What? Room modes cause problems then and now? Speakers have had +/-3 dB response since the mid 1980s? Magic doesn't actually exist in green CD markers either? Damn. I actually wonder why I bothered to get tower speakers for the front if I'm just going to cross at 80Hz to a sub anyway (the B15 bookshelf speakers I had before in the front played fine to 60Hz so it seems moot to get speakers that play flat to 35Hz if I'm not going to use them, but they "look" more impressive.

Really? Audiophile hype? Newer must be better? I’m not easily insulted but really? It’s not my first day, and speakers notwithstanding, subwoofers have come a long way since ‘95 and I know that because I’ve involved since before then, and they are junk.
I said “respectfully” suggest newer subs to avoid you spazzing out and defending them. Glad you like em.
Later...

 

[VonMagnum]

Really? Audiophile hype? Newer must be better? I’m not easily insulted but really? It’s not my first day, and speakers notwithstanding, subwoofers have come a long way since ‘95 and I know that because I’ve involved since before then, and they are junk.
I said “respectfully” suggest newer subs to avoid you spazzing out and defending them. Glad you like em.
Later...

Yeah, I'm not supposed to take offense at someone telling me my subwoofer is "JUNK". Right dude.

You haven't heard it. You have no clue what it sounds like, but instead judge 100% of the subwoofers from the 1990s as JUNK. And by judging it "junk" without hearing it, you have essentially called into question MY ability to judge a stereo system and I HAVE heard it. If the bass in stereo mode on my home theater system sounds the same/similar as my Carver AL-III speakers (at least down to 30Hz), by proxy, they MUST be "junk" too.

Sorry, but low frequencies aren't that hard to generate. As I said, subwoofers have gotten smaller and that's great (at the cost of using more power which isn't generally free),but not being able to hit 130dB peaks is not a big loss at my house. I can easily hit 115dB to least 25Hz and if that's not good enough for movies, well, crap. We live in the age of flipping sound bars and 21Hz isn't good enough. It's JUNK. Gotcha.

 

[VonMagnum]

First I generally agree with you post, so don't take this wrong.
Your post made me reflect on a the state of the art of speakers over the years and there are two places where I feel speakers have made decisive improvements since the early 80's - horns and metal tweeters!

That could very well be. My speakers I still use from the 1990s (Carver AL-III) have kapton film ribbons in them, not metal domes or horns. My oldest PSB speakers are from 2007 (aluminum dome instead of the current titanium dome. I couldn't tell any real difference when I interchanged them to see if I could hear a substantial difference. I also tried replacing a set of B15 aluminum tweeters (I had a couple blow over 12 years) with fabric dome replacements made by a different company for that lineup that people seemed to like (as I could only get 3 original domes and I needed 5). Those did sound a bit different, but not excessively so. In fact, they seem to have much better off-axis dispersion so I used those in my B15s near the ceiling that I can't point downward terribly far. They seem to work well there.

Both of these were excessively harsh to my ear then, the metal tweeters made great improvements when they used materials with higher breakup frequencies than aluminium, but even some of the recent Al tweeters have resolved this (maybe through use of alloys?). SVS Ultras and KEF LS50 come to mind as modern Al tweeters I can live with.

If anything, I thought PSBs tweeters (aluminum and titanium) both sound pretty meek in the treble compared to those fabric domes. Audyssey seems to bear that out as it increased the treble in the tweeter range, which increased sibilance a bit on some recordings (and that's in reference mode, not flat). But then I'm used to the Carver ribbons and they start to roll off at 12kHz on the neutral bias setting (they came with passive tone controls; I now use active crossovers, but they were designed by a former Carver engineer and have the same controls, but supposedly with an active all inductor design instead of the electrolytic caps that are prone to wear out eventually.)

For horns, the latest offerings from Klipsch and JBL are are ones I know to be so much easier on the ears than the older ones that I no longer consider horns something to avoid!

I do like my bedroom Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 speakers (I have a set on my computer as well), especially considering how cheap they were they sound amazing at at that price range in a small room. They're only good for small to mid-sized rooms, though and the bass only goes down to the mid 30s, but they have a great sound to them. I set up a Klipsch tower speaker horn setup in my mother's house and they sound pretty good for the price considering the size of her room and are very easy to drive. She could use a subwoofer, however. I'll probably install one for her this summer.

 

[Danzilla31]

I’ve always used the Audyssey mic, according to several tests done by avsforum members it’s within 2dB of the omnimic. It’s worth mentioning the speakers sound as rolled off as the graph suggests.

Although I can't give any objective experience on your measuring situation I can give you my experience with Audyssey in my room and it was a lot like yours

Seemed to cause more problems then it resolved

So as some have mentioned here I ran it to set distances and levels etc etc. Then I just turn the whole thing off.

And tweak till I'm satisfied. I really like how it sounds now with Audyssey off. That was my experience

Hope you get everything worked out on your system. There's nothing more frustrating then having a great setup and feeling like your not reaching its full potential. I've been there.

Learned from fellas here and figured it out confident you'll get there as well

 

[Bernie Williams]

After many years with Audyssey I decided to listen to music today and compare reference/flat/off and L&R off. I think I prefer the L&R off as It appears that the reference option was trimming the high frequency somewhat. This forum seems to confirm my hearing.

There has been some mention of switching out the supplied audyssey mic, any suggestions for a replacement?

 

[ryanosaur]

There has been some mention of switching out the supplied audyssey mic, any suggestions for a replacement?

My understanding is that their mic is calibrated specifically for Aud. So you do not want to switch ot out... or use it in another application. Might be mistake,... would appreciate correction if that's the case.

 

[VonMagnum]

All I know is I get MORE high frequencies with Audyssey on here than off, particularly in FLAT mode. I'm not a fan of that mode with my PSB speakers. They sound better in Reference or OFF. The first time I ran Audyssey it was even worse. I moved the speakers a bit and tried again and it's now pretty good in Reference (still kind of bright in flat). Maybe it's just me or I'm used to my Carvers that have a little bit of natural roll off, but flat produces a lot more sibilance than reference or off. I'd say my results are just the opposite of others (yes, I used the included mic, all within 1-1.5 feet of each location).

 

[Bernie Williams]

A question: with L&R off, the processing that occurs is only in the sub and all other speakers. So If in reference mode my speakers were crossed over at 40 hz ( I have large speakers, Legacy Audio Focus SE's,) then in L&R off, the low frequency impact would be a slight increase in bass from the mains and audyssey is still "correcting" the subs. Am I understanding this correctly.

 

[ryanosaur]

To the best of my knowledge, yes, you've got it.
My gosh those are beautiful speakers! Did you say you are still crossing them at 40? I would would open those bad boys up and let them live!
When I get my mains in a few more weeks, I'm gonna have a similar situation where I can run them large and use my subs to really smooth out the lows in my room a la Geddes. Considering going in on a miniDSP/Dirac product to maximize that, too.

 

[Danzilla31]

All I know is I get MORE high frequencies with Audyssey on here than off, particularly in FLAT mode. I'm not a fan of that mode with my PSB speakers. They sound better in Reference or OFF. The first time I ran Audyssey it was even worse. I moved the speakers a bit and tried again and it's now pretty good in Reference (still kind of bright in flat). Maybe it's just me or I'm used to my Carvers that have a little bit of natural roll off, but flat produces a lot more sibilance than reference or off. I'd say my results are just the opposite of others (yes, I used the included mic, all within 1-1.5 feet of each location).

I had a lottof of those same issues. It was the highs that were just getting wrecked in my system with Audyssey.

Nothing I tried could really resolve the issue so I just use it now for distance level matching etc and then turn all of it off.

But lately forum members helped me learn how to set it all up manually just do it all myself.

Very grateful for that because that's given me the best results so far. And the feeling you get from tweeking your gear yourself to get the sound you prefer is worth the effort

 

[jmastanduno]

Audyssey has a "flat" mode that doesn't roll off the highs. It's easily selected between "Reference", "Flat" and "Off" in my Marantz AVR menu. If anything, Audyssey INCREASED the treble in my system to the point where "flat" sounds too harsh compared to "off" for a lot of music (sibilance increased). "Reference" still has more treble than "off" here, but it generally sounds good (dialog clearer, etc.).

It was too harsh my first try. I moved my main speakers a bit and tried again and it sounds great now without resorting to "bass only". Even so, it's not night and day from 'off' so the idea that it automatically "ruins" the sound seems a bit absurd to make such a generalization. Certainly, bass is a fair bit more even and 20Hz is now down just 5dB from reference with my relatively ancient sub from 1995 and it's flat at 22Hz.

My only real complaint about Audyssey is how long it takes to do another measurement. If I added a second sub, it would be nice if I could just have it take the measurement for the added subwoofer (and how it relates to the other subwoofer) instead of starting from scratch on everything when it's everything else that stands to get a potentially worse result (hard to put mic in the exact places that worked well and you never know how a dB or two could make the sound harsher or whatever).

I have Av7706 Marantz but I don’t see the settings reference flat or off? Thank you

 

[lovinthehd]

I have Av7706 Marantz but I don’t see the settings reference flat or off? Thank you

If similiar to most Denon/Marantz units, go to the setup menu with your remote then to audio then to Audyssey - you should have choices on the MultEQ XT32 line of Audyssey/Flat/L-R Bypass/GraphicEQ.

 

[witchdoctor]

My experience with Audyssey is it worked much better after I treated my room the way Gene and Anthony Grimani describe in their video series. It went to a whole new level when I upgraded to the Audyssey Pro kit with the calibrated mic and using a PC. The measurements right now are about the best I would expect given my room layout. Audyssey just upgraded their software and as long as your unit can use the app you can get the new software. It was a risk dropping the money on the new license but in hindsight it is way worth it. Also cheaper than buying anew processor and Dirac charges for upgrades too ($500 or so!). You can also buy a calibrated mic for it.

Audyssey MultEQ-X Room EQ Software Review

Performance Features Value PRICE $199 AT A GLANCE Plus Superb setup flexibility

www.soundandvision.com

 

[VonMagnum]

I follow Dr. Floyd Toole's advice and limited Audyssey in bandwidth to 300Hz. That was a big improvement in the treble (letting the PSB speakers do treble directly as most peaks/dips on good speakers are room related reflections and not the direct sound and we hear those differently. I tried a few frequency limits since then and it may be nitpicking small differences oe even my imagination, but a 1kHz limit sounded the best to me overall (that's where whatever interactions on REW settled down, but then I've been experimenting with surround arrays in a somewhat more dampened room since 2019 and it may be smoothing their interactions more than the room reflections up to that range. Whatever it is, vocals and dialog are clear as crystal without the harsh highs.