Do floor standing speakers even make sense when used with a sub?

[Dale Doback]

If you're not getting localization for the subs....

Yeah, might as well go with the higher x-over. However, my AVR never gets above 74°F with the Aircom T9 on top.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I knew someone who owned those. Or some similar to those. Can't comment on the sound really, my buddy only listened to Heavy Metal and very LOUDLY. lol Yes, they played VERY LOUD!

Haha. Yeah, they definitely got some metal pumped through em. And some bass CD’s of the time too. They’d shake the ground out in my yard(basement bedroom). I also fell in love with Pink Floyd(and many others)on those speakers. Yes, they definitely played loud. And iirc, pretty clear too. I probably couldn’t stand em today lol. My 15yr old actually offered to help me restore them so he can have em. Huh...

 

[yepimonfire]

I still can't decide. lol I keep going back and forth between 80 to 120hz. So, the difference must not be that huge to me. But, I have 4 10" subs, so, I am guessing it's easier to go with a higher x-over with my setup.

If you have multiple subs spread through the room, you’ll like be able to go with a higher xover point, in my case, my speakers do a better job of reproducing tighter sounding midbass above 60hz. It’s really just room/sub dependent.

Another issue I have is that, despite common beliefs, I can usually localize bass above 70-80hz, especially if the sub is more than a few feet from the mains. My bedroom setup currently requires a 120hz xover, and the sub if about 3’ to the right of the speakers, with higher frequency bass, I often notice the location of the sub.

I’ve always wanted to experiment with using smaller subs with good midbass response (like Hsu’s mbm or diysg’s mbm) and individual active xovers for each channel pair, for example, to mid bass modules placed along the front, and two along the sides near the surrounds, crossed over at 120-200hz, then using a separate, very large sub tuned very low for LFE content. This is actually similar to many setups in commercial cinemas, they generally have separate bass management subs and a dedicated LFE sub, though, I suspect the reasoning for this has to do with the fact a single or double sub setup would be incapable of handling peak LFE at 115dB and an extra 12dB from the speakers (127dB).

Another solution, assuming the room permits it and the response is decent across all 5-7 speaker locations, would be large full range towers for all 5 channels, and no bass management. Film is mixed in consideration of the frequency response of commercial cinema speakers. Official smpte and Dolby specifications recommend screen speaker (lcr or lcr+lc & rc in a 5 channel screen speaker setup) have a response down to 40hz. Looking at a spectral analysis of the LF content in the main 5/7 channel mix, there’s not a lot below 35-40hz, so running big speakers full range wouldn’t be an issue so long as they can achieve 90-105dB (depending on your preferred volume level for movies) down to 40hz. Something like a Klipsch RF-7 III with its dual 10” woofers would easily be up to the task.

The things I’d do if I had lots of money to burn....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dale Doback]

If you have multiple subs spread through the room, you’ll like be able to go with a higher xover point, in my case, my speakers do a better job of reproducing tighter sounding midbass above 60hz. It’s really just room/sub dependent.

Another issue I have is that, despite common beliefs, I can usually localize bass above 70-80hz, especially if the sub is more than a few feet from the mains. My bedroom setup currently requires a 120hz xover, and the sub if about 3’ to the right of the speakers, with higher frequency bass, I often notice the location of the sub.

I’ve always wanted to experiment with using smaller subs with good midbass response (like Hsu’s mbm or diysg’s mbm) and individual active xovers for each channel pair, for example, to mid bass modules placed along the front, and two along the sides near the surrounds, crossed over at 120-200hz, then using a separate, very large sub tuned very low for LFE content. This is actually similar to many setups in commercial cinemas, they generally have separate bass management subs and a dedicated LFE sub, though, I suspect the reasoning for this has to do with the fact a single or double sub setup would be incapable of handling peak LFE at 115dB and an extra 12dB from the speakers (127dB).

Another solution, assuming the room permits it and the response is decent across all 5-7 speaker locations, would be large full range towers for all 5 channels, and no bass management. Film is mixed in consideration of the frequency response of commercial cinema speakers. Official smpte and Dolby specifications recommend screen speaker (lcr or lcr+lc & rc in a 5 channel screen speaker setup) have a response down to 40hz. Looking at a spectral analysis of the LF content in the main 5/7 channel mix, there’s not a lot below 35-40hz, so running big speakers full range wouldn’t be an issue so long as they can achieve 90-105dB (depending on your preferred volume level for movies) down to 40hz. Something like a Klipsch RF-7 III with its dual 10” woofers would easily be up to the task.

The things I’d do if I had lots of money to burn....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, localization really isn't an issue with me, all 4 subs are up front (stacked, 2 on each side of center tower). So, since it's hard for me to distinguish between 80 & 120hz, might as well go with 120hz.

 

[killdozzer]

Haha. Yeah, they definitely got some metal pumped through em. And some bass CD’s of the time too. They’d shake the ground out in my yard(basement bedroom). I also fell in love with Pink Floyd(and many others)on those speakers. Yes, they definitely played loud. And iirc, pretty clear too. I probably couldn’t stand em today lol. My 15yr old actually offered to help me restore them so he can have em. Huh...

And all:

Just keep in mind that the speaker I posted is a two-way. That large cone is suppose to go from 38Hz to 1200Hz. So some of the high mids go to the tweeter. It just occured to me that medical tables my mother uses for physical examination says human speech is around 4k to 6k, which would mean that no speech is in the mid(??).

As for old cones, this was blaring my youth off:

These were made in former Yugoslavia from the Elak blueprints. This example also shows the first thing that went on these, It's the suspension. It was made from some rubbery sponge that would decay sooner than anything else. They were extreeeemly cheap, so you might say the sound was outstanding. For the price of a pair you couldn't even buy a mid-price Pioneer deck.

But it's a three-way, it doesn't help with the 12, 14 or 15" cone that plays mids and lows. The example I posted doesn't have some hidden down-firing, or passive radiator, or some transmission inner construction.



You can see here "RIZ - ELAK" sign and some specs.

 

[KEW]

It just occured to me that medical tables my mother uses for physical examination says human speech is around 4k to 6k, which would mean that no speech is in the mid(??).

That is the range where vocal clarity is best effected.
Male vocals run 100-900Hz and female from 290-1100Hz with harmonics extending up to 8kHz and breathiness up to ~ 16kHz!

This is an interactive chart so let you mouse cursor hover over different parts of the chart for more info.
You'll love it!
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

 

[killdozzer]

That is the range where vocal clarity is best effected.
Male vocals run 100-900Hz and female from 290-1100Hz with harmonics extending up to 8kHz and breathiness up to ~ 16kHz!

This is an interactive chart so let you mouse cursor hover over different parts of the chart for more info.
You'll love it!
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

We should have a "thank you" rating for cases like this!

Thank you!

 

[Dale Doback]

And all:

Just keep in mind that the speaker I posted is a two-way. That large cone is suppose to go from 38Hz to 1200Hz. So some of the high mids go to the tweeter. It just occured to me that medical tables my mother uses for physical examination says human speech is around 4k to 6k, which would mean that no speech is in the mid(??).

As for old cones, this was blaring my youth off:
View attachment 22850

These were made in former Yugoslavia from the Elak blueprints. This example also shows the first thing that went on these, It's the suspension. It was made from some rubbery sponge that would decay sooner than anything else. They were extreeeemly cheap, so you might say the sound was outstanding. For the price of a pair you couldn't even buy a mid-price Pioneer deck.

But it's a three-way, it doesn't help with the 12, 14 or 15" cone that plays mids and lows. The example I posted doesn't have some hidden down-firing, or passive radiator, or some transmission inner construction.

View attachment 22851

You can see here "RIZ - ELAK" sign and some specs.

It looks like it says 8Ω on the back. I thought CVs were 4Ω speakers? I'm gettin old and forgetful though. Been a few decades since I've even seen any CVs. I remember when CVs and Bose 901s were all the rage.

 

[killdozzer]

It looks like it says 8Ω on the back. I thought CVs were 4Ω speakers? I'm gettin old and forgetful though. Been a few decades since I've even seen any CVs. I remember when CVs and Bose 901s were all the rage.

This is not a CV. It's probably the red circle around the driver that made you think of CV. These are RIZ speakers (Radio Industrija Zagreb - Radio Industry Zagreb). It is the electronics company that made the first television set entirely produced in former Yugoslavia. It made tuners, turntables, amplifiers, transmitters and army electronics.

 

[Dale Doback]

This is not a CV. It's probably the red circle around the driver that made you think of CV. These are RIZ speakers (Radio Industrija Zagreb - Radio Industry Zagreb). It is the electronics company that made the first television set entirely produced in former Yugoslavia. It made tuners, turntables, amplifiers, transmitters and army electronics.

Oh, ok. Jeez, now I feel like an:

 

[killdozzer]

@yepimonfire

You seem to genuinely appreciate horn design, that's why these made me think of you:

Somehow I feel you'd have months of joy exploring these. Combining them with two subs perhaps to get a state of the art sound. Check how much settings they offer with active XO's, strong inbuilt amps, EQ for bass and mids... Dual Concentric horns should image heavenly:

 

[Mitchibo]

@yepimonfire

You seem to genuinely appreciate horn design, that's why these made me think of you:
View attachment 22865

Somehow I feel you'd have months of joy exploring these. Combining them with two subs perhaps to get a state of the art sound. Check how much settings they offer with active XO's, strong inbuilt amps, EQ for bass and mids... Dual Concentric horns should image heavenly:

Never seen these before. Look typically German, no? And talk about efficiency? Seems like an amp would be superfluous. To think, you get hook up some crappy receiver and probably get some amazing playback.