Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

[KEW]

View attachment 22471
This is the waterfall from the same measurement. Not sure what to make of it.

Something is not right there!

First off, you need to determine the noise floor of your room! Usually 45dB is used, but should you have a pretty live room and something like HVAC or your fridge running nearby, that may not be the case. You can always measure it. This should be the minimum value assigned to your Y-axis. With the current 20dB you would likely never fall all of the way to the "ground".

But more concerning, you have a couple of latent "humps" around 30, 65, & 85Hz. The only way I could interpret that is the signal got louder after it had decayed. I suppose these may be reflections off of a wall, or something, but I never see anything like that in pro measurements; but maybe I am confusing outdoor measurements of subs with room measurements!

Lastly, around 120Hz, it looks like thing are steady with no downward slope. Either the noise floor in your room is close to 60dB at that frequency or you've discovered the makings of a perpetual motion machine!

Here is some good info from Wayne:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/59988-rew-eq-filters-ringing.html

 

[TheWarrior]

@Pogre

What I am suggesting is that you know for sure what is causing the dips. At this point, it sounds like many inputs have been made, and without knowing everything that you've done in a room of unknown dimension there is absolutely no way I can tell you with confidence to apply boost filters at those two frequencies. Doing that can create new problems that won't show in a singular response measurement.

Having your subs stuck where they are is of course, not ideal, but without knowing a baseline measurement, and what influence your room has on that measurement, you are flying blind.

'Sound Reproduction' is a 500 page textbook. I'm recommending for people to try a single page of that book(p203 2nd edition - p219 3rd edition) that aids in data gathering so informed decisions can be made.

This thread is almost 30 pages long, and despite the time already spent, you are still seeking improvements. Perhaps try again, but with some basic knowledge so that you may make informed decisions!

 

[Mitchibo]

View attachment 22471
This is the waterfall from the same measurement. Not sure what to make of it.

I’d try changing the time to 450 or even 500 to see where the decay goes. This does look a little ringy.

 

[Mitchibo]

“Two subs may not be able to solve all of the problems, but changing their locations and providing them the right filters should be more effective than what has been tried in both situations.”

Uh...I think this is what he’s done for the past several weeks. It did improve substantially. I think Pogre stated clearly he can’t move his setup any more. I think he also stated his room is beyond physical measurements, therefore the questions still stand. Can anyone give a succinct answer as I have need of the same information?

 

[Mitchibo]

And BTW I found nothing helpful on page 203. Highlight it please.

 

[TheWarrior]

And BTW I found nothing helpful on page 203.

Page 203 'Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms - Second Edition'

"To compute the frequencies at which axial standing waves occur, simply measure the distance between the walls, and divide that number into the speed of sound in whatever units the measurements were done."

You'll notice that is the very first sentence of the page. And I didn't quote the parentheses as I have made an effort to condense what it is I am asking people to do with measuring their boundaries and calculating modes.

So if anyone would like to try it, just measure your parallel boundaries and it'll provide you with a great starting point with which to make informed decisions.

 

[Pogre]

@Pogre

What I am suggesting is that you know for sure what is causing the dips. At this point, it sounds like many inputs have been made, and without knowing everything that you've done in a room of unknown dimension there is absolutely no way I can tell you with confidence to apply boost filters at those two frequencies. Doing that can create new problems that won't show in a singular response measurement.

Having your subs stuck where they are is of course, not ideal, but without knowing a baseline measurement, and what influence your room has on that measurement, you are flying blind.

'Sound Reproduction' is a 500 page textbook. I'm recommending for people to try a single page of that book(p203 2nd edition - p219 3rd edition) that aids in data gathering so informed decisions can be made.

This thread is almost 30 pages long, and despite the time already spent, you are still seeking improvements. Perhaps try again, but with some basic knowledge so that you may make informed decisions!

Let's say I measure everything in my room and you predict all of my room modes. Then I measure with rew and the graph correlates with the predictions. What would I do differently outside of eq'ing the highs and lows? My subs and towers are pretty much stuck where they are.

 

[Mitchibo]

Page 203 'Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms - Second Edition'

"To compute the frequencies at which axial standing waves occur, simply measure the distance between the walls, and divide that number into the speed of sound in whatever units the measurements were done."

You'll notice that is the very first sentence of the page. And I didn't quote the parentheses as I have made an effort to condense what it is I am asking people to do with measuring their boundaries and calculating modes.

So if anyone would like to try it, just measure your parallel boundaries and it'll provide you with a great starting point with which to make informed decisions.

The above text is not on page 203 of my III edition, but I get the point

 

[shadyJ]

If you want to know room modes for a simple room, just use this calculator. If your room isn't that geometrically simple than really only measuring the response at listening position is going to do the trick. Pogre has done that and has calibrated his system accordingly. His low-frequency response at listening position is probably better than 95% of all audio enthusiast setups. Knowing the exact room modes won't really help him at this point. Given that his room has openings to other areas of his house, they would likely be very difficult to calculate as well.

 

[KEW]

The above text is not on page 203 of my III edition, but I get the point

'Sound Reproduction' is a 500 page textbook. I'm recommending for people to try a single page of that book(p203 2nd edition - [B]p219 3rd edition[/B]) that aids in data gathering so informed decisions can be made.

 

[Pogre]

Something is not right there!

First off, you need to determine the noise floor of your room! Usually 45dB is used, but should you have a pretty live room and something like HVAC or your fridge running nearby, that may not be the case. You can always measure it. This should be the minimum value assigned to your Y-axis. With the current 20dB you would likely never fall all of the way to the "ground".

But more concerning, you have a couple of latent "humps" around 30, 65, & 85Hz. The only way I could interpret that is the signal got louder after it had decayed. I suppose these may be reflections off of a wall, or something, but I never see anything like that in pro measurements; but maybe I am confusing outdoor measurements of subs with room measurements!

Lastly, around 120Hz, it looks like thing are steady with no downward slope. Either the noise floor in your room is close to 60dB at that frequency or you've discovered the makings of a perpetual motion machine!

Here is some good info from Wayne:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/59988-rew-eq-filters-ringing.html

I'm going to be recalibrating everything again soon anyway.

This is arriving Friday and will change the layout in my living room quite a bit. It's a sectional but all the seats are interchangeable so I have some options for putting it together. I might be able to sneak a sub in between one of those seats... hmm...

My old chair had a couple broken springs and another one went last night. There's a giant pothole where my ass sits now and it sucks. I coulda just got another chair or loveseat but my wife's birthday just around the corner... new furniture. Happy birthday honey!

We spent 2 hours there looking at and sitting in furniture and that set was one of the most comfortable.

They had these badass loveseat chairs with very comfortable solid cushioning, usb ports, extra storage and electric adjustable headrests and lighted cupholders! I absolutely loved them and asked about darker colors. Nope. Damnit. I woulda bought one but this was the only color available. Too light for my house.

Kurt, I can get my noise floor down lower than when I did those graphs. It was a lot hotter when I did those and shutting everything off made my hvac struggle too much. I'll do it all fresh again after I get the new furniture in. Probably this weekend.

 

[Pogre]

If you want to know room modes for a simple room, just use this calculator. If your room isn't that geometrically simple than really only measuring the response at listening position is going to do the trick. Pogre has done that and has calibrated his system accordingly. His low-frequency response at listening position is probably better than 95% of all audio enthusiast setups. Knowing the exact room modes won't really help him at this point. Given that his room has openings to other areas of his house, they would likely be very difficult to calculate as well.

That is so the point I've been trying to make. I appreciate any and all help when it's helpful. I really don't think trying to get accurate measurements of my rooms is going to tell me much more than I figured out already.

 

[ATLAudio]

@Pogre

What I am suggesting is that you know for sure what is causing the dips. At this point, it sounds like many inputs have been made, and without knowing everything that you've done in a room of unknown dimension there is absolutely no way I can tell you with confidence to apply boost filters at those two frequencies. Doing that can create new problems that won't show in a singular response measurement.

Having your subs stuck where they are is of course, not ideal, but without knowing a baseline measurement, and what influence your room has on that measurement, you are flying blind.

'Sound Reproduction' is a 500 page textbook. I'm recommending for people to try a single page of that book(p203 2nd edition - p219 3rd edition) that aids in data gathering so informed decisions can be made.

This thread is almost 30 pages long, and despite the time already spent, you are still seeking improvements. Perhaps try again, but with some basic knowledge so that you may make informed decisions!

“What I am suggesting is that you know for sure what is causing the dips.”

How do you know he doesn’t know? Are there any tools in REW which could reveal some, most, or even all of this information? (YES OR NO)

“At this point, it sounds like many inputs have been made, and without knowing everything that you've done in a room of unknown dimension there is absolutely no way I can tell you with confidence to apply boost filters at those two frequencies. Doing that can create new problems that won't show in a singular response measurement.”

He’s simply saying (given any hypotheticals you want to use) what would he do from start to finish. He’s asked this time and time and time again. Even if your flowchart is a kaleidoscope of astronomical outcomes, (I’ll hold aside how absurd I think this notion is) just give one solution path. Your best bet; use the path you did for your room after taking a year's worth of measurements. You don’t even need your charts, just outline it.

“...but without knowing a baseline measurement, and what influence your room has on that measurement, you are flying blind.”

Are you saying that there’s nothing in REW that can help here so that you aren’t flying blind? (YES OR NO)

“Sound Reproduction' is a 500 page textbook. I'm recommending for people to try a single page of that book(p203 2nd edition - p219 3rd edition) that aids in data gathering so informed decisions can be made. This thread is almost 30 pages long, and despite the time already spent, you are still seeking improvements.”

The vast majority of this thread was spent trying to find the “on button to REW” a few pages discussing charts, and the last few trying to use a trick with his SVS woofers which probably won’t work. Pointing out the page count of this thread and grossly generalizing it as “seeking improvements” is a broad brush, and you’re only fooling yourself here.

“Perhaps try again, but with some basic knowledge so that you may make informed decisions!”

Since you admittedly don’t know what procedure was done, how can you say it was uninformed?

That’s three questions. Please respond to anything here, but don’t waste your time responding without answering these close ended questions. Thanks.

 

[Mitchibo]

If you want to know room modes for a simple room, just use this calculator. If your room isn't that geometrically simple than really only measuring the response at listening position is going to do the trick. Pogre has done that and has calibrated his system accordingly. His low-frequency response at listening position is probably better than 95% of all audio enthusiast setups. Knowing the exact room modes won't really help him at this point. Given that his room has openings to other areas of his house, they would likely be very difficult to calculate as well.

Bingo!

 

[Pogre]

“What I am suggesting is that you know for sure what is causing the dips.”

How do you know he doesn’t know? Are there any tools in REW which could reveal this information? (YES OR NO)

“At this point, it sounds like many inputs have been made, and without knowing everything that you've done in a room of unknown dimension there is absolutely no way I can tell you with confidence to apply boost filters at those two frequencies. Doing that can create new problems that won't show in a singular response measurement.”

He’s simply saying (given any hypotheticals you want to use) what would he do from start to finish. He’s asked this time and time and time again. Even if your flowchart is a kaleidoscope of astronomical outcomes (I’ll hold aside how absurd I think this notion is) just give one solution path. Your best bet; use the path you did, for your room after taking a year's worth of measurements. You don’t even need your charts, just outline it.

“...but without knowing a baseline measurement, and what influence your room has on that measurement, you are flying blind.”

Are you saying that there’s nothing in REW that can help here so that you aren’t flying blind? (YES OR NO)

“Sound Reproduction' is a 500 page textbook. I'm recommending for people to try a single page of that book(p203 2nd edition - p219 3rd edition) that aids in data gathering so informed decisions can be made. This thread is almost 30 pages long, and despite the time already spent, you are still seeking improvements.”

The vast majority was spent trying to find the “on button to REW” a few pages discussing charts, and the last few trying to use a trick with his SVS woofers which probably won’t work. Pointing out the page count and the phrase “Seeking improvements” is a broad brush you’re unfairly using as leverage here.

“Perhaps try again, but with some basic knowledge so that you may make informed decisions!”

Since you admittedly don’t know what procedure was done, how can you say it was uninformed?

This thread had a different title when it was started. It's evolved a couple of times. There's been a lot of good discussion and I've made big improvements in my sq thanks to the contributions of others. I am pretty sure through the course of this thread that I've measured plenty and have a very good idea where my room modes are without busting out a tape measure.

@PENG, where are you right now with the mini? Getting anywhere? Any good results?

 

[Mitchibo]

This thread had a different title when it was started. It's evolved a couple of times. There's been a lot of good discussion and I've made big improvements in my sq thanks to the contributions of others. I am pretty sure through the course of this thread that I've measured plenty and have a very good idea where my room modes are without busting out a tape measure.

@PENG, where are you right now with the mini? Getting anywhere? Any good results?

Dude, I have been following this as a spectator and have gained knowledge too. There have been some interesting ideas. If it wasn’t for these guys I’d be listening some crappy sound.

 

[Mitchibo]

I'm going to be recalibrating everything again soon anyway.

View attachment 22473

This is arriving Friday and will change the layout in my living room quite a bit. It's a sectional but all the seats are interchangeable so I have some options for putting it together. I might be able to sneak a sub in between one of those seats... hmm...

My old chair had a couple broken springs and another one went last night. There's a giant pothole where my ass sits now and it sucks. I coulda just got another chair or loveseat but my wife's birthday just around the corner... new furniture. Happy birthday honey!

We spent 2 hours there looking at and sitting in furniture and that set was one of the most comfortable.

View attachment 22474
View attachment 22475
They had these badass loveseat chairs with very comfortable solid cushioning, usb ports, extra storage and electric adjustable headrests and lighted cupholders! I absolutely loved them and asked about darker colors. Nope. Damnit. I woulda bought one but this was the only color available. Too light for my house.

Kurt, I can get my noise floor down lower than when I did those graphs. It was a lot hotter when I did those and shutting everything off made my hvac struggle too much. I'll do it all fresh again after I get the new furniture in. Probably this weekend.

A good movie, cold beer, chilli, and start pounding those farts into it.

 

[agarwalro]

@agarwalro

Room mode measurement provides information which can be meaningful, but in rooms as complex and fixed as Pogre’s it seems like it’d just add to the confusion. My approach is to use REW tools, like the waterfalls which you suggested, which warrior flippantly (IMPO) dismissed with a text wall of mostly irrelevant links (your words). Or other REW tools which can give you an idea of the most problematic modes, and can give a very good solution to them. I’ve tried several, several times how I use these things to Warrior, and he would just beat me up with his (incorrect) definitive assumptions, and condescending Toole fanboyish approach. Bottom-line; it all depends on one’s goals, expectations, and how ideal one’s situation is.

Moreover, and he can tell me I’m wrong, but I believe that Pogre has asked the same basic question several times without an answer to his satisfaction, yet Warrior continues to brow beat... In a sense, this is trolling.

I will concede that room mode analysis can be unappealing from the get go, laborious for non cuboidal spaces and even complicated for open layout mixed use/living room home theater spaces. It may be confusing at first, yet, for someone taking the time to understand it, there are undeniable benefits.

You consider REW and measurements and corrections therein implemented in miniDSP a comprehensive and complete tool in addressing room response issues. It is not. It is probably one with the gentlest learning curve. Ask those who had to create filters using a spreadsheet macro and implement them in a Behringer FBQ1124 or DCX2496 .

If REQ now does modal analysis, it has advanced well beyond what I remember it doing.

I can understand your frustration with Warrior coming on strong and yet not resolving questions or giving direction except to measure the room and perform modal analysis. PM him and request he excuse himself from your discussion or put him on your ignore list. Oblique ad hominem jabs serve only to weaken your standing. Last but not the least, he's trying to help and not being given the information he needs to do his bit. Yet, he's been civil through this. Please put yourself in his shoes too.

We all have the same goal, to eek the most performance out of money spent on a luxury. That and to kick back with our go to beverage and music or movie.

 

[agarwalro]

If I apply up to 6db +/- to a frequency and it doesn't do the job, then I leave it. I'm assuming since eq isn't taking care of it, then those frequencies most likely are room modes. Is that a reasonable conclusion to arrive at without physically measuring the space?

You needn't limit yourself to +/- 6dB. Rather it is persistent peaks or dips that don't seem to appreciable change. One easy way to test this is, look for this artifact across measurements from different locations. This will be the REW equivalent of modal analysis with room dimension estimates. You're here and have learnt enough to understand this room response behavior. Somebody simply tooling around with REW may not make this leap in understanding why EQ is not fixing their dips (peaks are easy to address for sake of correcting linear response, aka steady state frequency response). For your case, it would be a reasonable conclusion without getting into physically measuring distances.

I don't have any issues with imaging or soundstage. I still get up to see if my center channel is on when listening to music! The Ultra towers are very good at both and I've played extensively with positioning them (moving them, and running a sweep after each move). I believe them to be optimized where they are.

This is entirely your call to make. Heck I'm jealous even .

I'm only interested in getting it to sound as good I can with the tools at hand. I don't want absorbing or diffusing panels, room treatments, or rearrange my living room and Alex knows that.

Yes, I recall you're mentioned this in a previous post.

View attachment 22470
This is my in room response right now with no smoothing or room curve applied. It's also the graph to which TheWarrior was referring to when he said he could only assume my bass sounds bad, is full of bloat and I need to scrap the work I've done (with @ATLAudio's help) in these last 25 pages and start over.

I'm not seeing it? He keeps telling me that this in no way shows that I have a good bass response without measuring my asymmetrical room with vaulted ceilings and many uneven parallel surfaces to the nth degree. Am I doing something wrong? That's what I feel is being implied.

I think this is an excellent and enviable room response from a linear FR perspective. I'm confident Warrior is referring to things not shown by the averaged FR. Specifically, modal ringing and non uniform energy decay (time domain response). I suspect, he also believes the EQ used is heavy handed and messing up the phase behavior of the system.

I see there's a measurement of some sort below. Maybe they're more to illustrate from it. More to follow.

 

[agarwalro]

I'm going to be recalibrating everything again soon anyway.

View attachment 22473

This is arriving Friday and will change the layout in my living room quite a bit. It's a sectional but all the seats are interchangeable so I have some options for putting it together. I might be able to sneak a sub in between one of those seats... hmm...

Top row had significantly better FR and less room mode issues .